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Working on a Bloodline: Sons of Judas

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  • Working on a Bloodline: Sons of Judas

    The idea is to take advantage of some of the old vampire lore ascribing bloodsuckers to being of the line of Judas, Christ's betrayer. It works like this: rather than dying by hanging, Judas gets Embraced by an unknown Cainite, but because of the nascent curse on Judas himself, his sire, thinking the Embrace failed, leaves him. He rises three days later as a vampire and proceeds to create his own line independent of greater vampire society, though he does learn a little bit about it along the way. As part of his curse, he has a Mandate to seek out and uncover the sins of others, and his progeny share in this curse. Likewise, they are unable to sire childer in the usual way, needing to use a Discipline to do it. The bloodline Discipline fills both roles.

    What I've got so far:
    ​_________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______

    Sons of Judas

    Historical speculation is rife, but nearly all accounts agree that the founding of the bloodline is attributable to none other than Judas Iscariot, supposedly Embraced by some unknown vampire and cursed by God for his part in the murder of Jesus Christ. Many scoff at this, but the unique method of feeding of these odd vampires and its singular result, as well as the Sons’ strange discipline, Mortification, and its emphasis on sin seem to bear out some relation.


    Nickname: Judges, Betrayers

    Sect: ​None, but they do uphold their own form of Masquerade, known as the Screen of Secrecy, so they tend to get along with the Camarilla when they're not judging them.

    Appearance: ​Members of this bloodline can be of any age, race, gender, or walk of life, but they all have red hair. No one knows if this is because the Sons Embrace only red-haired people, or if it turns red as part of their curse.

    Haven:​ Sons of Judas tend toward the affluent, and this shows in their choices of haven. Many make use of secluded mansions and high-rise apartments, the better to keep their distance from prying eyes.

    Background: ​The lives of their recruits tend to vary, but generally have something to do with sin. Many take childer from among the church or justice system, seeking those who would be good at discerning the sins of others. Other Sons seem to feel it is up to them to pass on the curse and the Mandate to those who have sinned flagrantly, forcing them to take up an existence aimed at countering their own effects on the world.

    Parent Clan: Unknown

    Character Creation: ​Regimented and judgmental Natures are common, with outgoing, exploratory, sometimes even nosey Demeanors. Mental Attributes are primary, with Skills and Knowledges taking precedence over Talents. Common Backgrounds include Generation, Mentor, and Resources.

    Clan Disciplines:
    Celerity
    Fortitude

    ​Mortification
    ​The Discipline of Mortification is unique to the Sons of Judas, being both a boon and a curse from on high. It is the primary means by which they carry out their missions of rooting out sin and exposing or punishing it, as well as the way they manage to sire progeny.

    1 - Tracks of Sin: ​By concentrating, a vampire can look at a subject and discern metaphorical physical features associated with different sins. Track marks for drug use, red hands for theft or murder, disheveled clothing and tousled hair for sexual promiscuity, all show up and are easy to interpret for the user of this Discipline. Conversely, the user can sense sins committed against the subject, as well, seeing bruises for rape, a haunted look or bearing for abuse, even the effects of vampiric feeding, even if they have been hidden. The type and extent of sins brought to light are variable, of course, but can be gauged by the user to determine whether or not he should get involved. To that end, he can even use this power to follow the subject, following the "tracks of sin" for the rest of the night.

    System:​ To view the sins affecting a given subject, the vampire focuses on the target for one turn and rolls Perception + Mortification (difficulty 6). The number of successes achieved indicates the amount of information gleaned as to the frequency and extent of sin. One success might indicate a one-time theft of bread for survival, while five successes would reveal a habit of bilking old ladies. Failure on this roll reveals nothing, while a botch projects the vampire's own sins onto the target.
    ​To use the power to track the subject for the night, the vampire makes another Perception + Mortification roll and spends a blood point to maintain a link to the target. Thereafter, he can follow the subject with ease based on the success of the roll.

    2 - Mortification of the Flesh: ​Traditionally, mortification is the punishment of the flesh in denial of the impulses that lead to sin. Using this power, a Son of Judas can harm another by harming himself, effectively dissuading them from sin even unto death.

    System:​ The character must touch the victim and spend a blood point, then roll Dexterity + Mortification (difficulty of the target's Stamina + Fortitude) while flagellating, cutting, or otherwise mortifying himself. For each success garnered, the victim receives one unsoakable health level of lethal damage for each level of damage the vampire does to himself. Further, wound penalties apply as if the damage were one level higher.

    3 - Sins of the Father: ​One of the worst aspects of sin is its tendency to spread, and using this power, the Son of Judas can spread his own. This power is the means by which vampires of the bloodline continue the line, but it also has another use, as well. The Son of Judas using this level of Mortification can choose to raise someone as a vampire over a three-day span, or he can immediately raise the body of an exsanguinated individual as a mindless blood-slave suitable for nothing more than combat or menial tasks.

    System: ​To create progeny is a simple matter, handled in the same manner as the creation of other vampires, except that the newly-created Son of Judas takes three nights to rise as a vampire, and its corpse is immune to sunlight, stakes, etc., until that time passes. It is believed that it is during this period that the soul of the vampire undergoes judgment for its sins and receives its Mandate to uncover the sins of others.
    ​The other use of this power creates a form of "lesser undead" more akin to a zombie than a true vampire. The creature takes aggravated damage from fire and sunlight, is paralyzed by a stake through the heart, and must be fed blood to operate (one blood point worth per day), but there the resemblance ends. It has no will of its own and can use neither Social nor Mental Attributes, nor can it access any Knowledges or complex Talents or Skills. It can engage in combat and perform simple tasks but must be commanded to do every little thing, including feed itself.
    ​To create a blood-slave, the Son of Judas first drains the blood from a recently deceased corpse, then spends two blood points, one to reanimate the body, the other to power it in undeath. The blood-slave then rises with all its original Physical Attributes at +2, but no Social or Mental Attributes. The corpse has no Willpower and is immune to all mental and emotional magics. It will respond only to commands from its creator, carrying out the last command given it until it is finished or until it is given a new one. It has seven health levels but takes no wound penalties from damage and lacks any sort of survival instinct. This blood-slave is still a dead thing and subject to decomposition. It maintains its form for three nights, after which it collapses into a heap of rotting meat and cannot be reanimated.

    ​4 - Burden of Original Sin: ​Also known as the Confessor's Flail, the Son of Judas can use this power to turn potentially any target, from a simpering waif to a proud Methuselah, into a puling wretch, begging for absolution, a chance to atone, or even Final Death. When used, this level of Mortification shows the subject a rapid-fire montage of all his sins, capped off with a crushing sense of his own insignificance, inherent evil, and lack of worth. This psychological and spiritual barrage can cripple even the hardiest of souls, and only the most debased and jaded of sociopaths escape the visions brought on unscathed.

    System: ​The character must touch the subject and make eye contact, then spend a blood point and roll Manipulation + Empathy (difficulty of the target's Willpower). If the roll succeeds, the target collapses into a ball, trapped in a mindscape of horror at his own actions and worthlessness. He can interact with others verbally, usually begging for help or release, answering questions (usually relating to the sins he is showing himself), but he can take no other actions other than to defend himself if attacked. The results last for one scene, but the repercussions will have effects for some time, possibly even leading to Derangements.

    5 - Dubbelsauger: ​Folklore associates the Sons of Judas with the dreaded dubbelsauger, a vampiric spirit that invades a corpse in a graveyard and takes on the appearance of its victim, then feeds on its own dead flesh while the victim withers away. A rarefied extension of the magic that allows Mortification of the Flesh, this power grants the vampire the ability to visit that curse on a sinner, with benefits. The user can chew his own flesh, which mystically regrows, while at the same time filling his blood pool off the life force he steals from a distant target. The target actually weakens and withers in whatever member is most used for sin; hands palsy for a murderer or thief, a cheating athlete weakens in the legs, and a rapist... well.

    System: ​To use this power, the vampire must have met the victim at least once face to face. The character spends two blood points to establish the connection and mimic the target's form, then rolls Manipulation + Occult (difficulty 8) to transform. This mimicry is not exact; the appearance is imperfect, as height and weight are not affected, only surface features. Clothing does not change, and the vampire retains his own voice, movements and mannerisms. The Son of Judas could, therefore, use the form as a disguise, but could not impersonate a specific individual.
    ​To feed, the dubbelsauger merely begins chewing on its own flesh, consuming itself and mystically regrowing what it eats. A Dexterity + Occult roll (difficulty of the target's Stamina + Fortitude) is made to feed in this way, and for every success, the victim takes one level of unsoakable bashing damage. For every two levels of damage the victim takes, the dubbelsauger gains a blood point, up to his maximum. Supernatural targets of this power can resist with a contested Willpower roll, having to get more successes than the attacker.
    ​The dubbelsauger does not have to be near the target for this power to work, as long as they have met previously. The maximum range of this power is within the same city. Some Sons of Judas will play out the folkloric stories of this power and rest for the night in a cemetery mausoleum, growing fat off the life force of a sinner they have marked, while the victim withers.
    ​The power Tracks of Sin will reveal use of this power, as will Auspex Three, and use of the correct powers will allow one to track the link back to the dubbelsauger. This power's effects last for one night.


    Weaknesses: ​The Sons of Judas cannot lick the wounds of their feeding closed, for one. When they feed, they have to suck on the surface of the skin, leaving a mark like a series of three x's, supposedly representing the Roman numeral thirty - the number of silver pieces Judas sold Jesus out for. In addition, they take aggravated damage from silver weapons and one lethal health level of damage per turn from direct contact with the metal. Add to this that they must use a Discipline to sire childer, and they certainly have their weaknesses.

    Organization: ​The Sons are usually solitary, working together only when they come across one another in the field and have a particularly difficult sinner to take on. The only real structure to the bloodline is the Seat of Judgment and its attendant Justices, elders of the bloodline based in Jerusalem, that intervene and hold court when one of the Judges themselves is found guilty of sin.

    Quote: ​"We are all sinners, some worse than others. You, my friend, are worse than others."
    ​_________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

    ​Not sure where this falls as far as overpowered/underpowered, but I think I might have overdone it. Tried to keep it self-limiting, though. Any input folks can give me, I would certainly appreciate it.

  • #2
    Maybe it is just me, but I usually find issue with any Bloodline predicated on being entirely outside Kindred society. If one is playing a Masquerade game, barring a game with just this Bloodline, most people will be playing typical clans. Wherein the reaction might be, 'oh, you're a Samedi? Neat. Can you help me move this couch?'

    That aside, it sounds like too much that is needlessly unique as well. They are a Bloodline unique in three ways from a normal clan.
    - Entirely separate from Kindred society, by and large. Even though they have their own unique name for The Masquerade.
    - They have a unique discipline/means of embrace.
    - They all have red hair. If there was a need to drop anything, it'd be this. Or at least it requires clarification. If one is playing one or encountering these things, it seems like there would be knowledge on whether or not the hair thing was mystical in nature.

    One also has to question how they can both have remained entirely separate to carry out their mission while also carrying out their mission, which involves punishment of sin.
    Level one - I think you need to better define the period of which sin might be viewed. I get the idea that more successes allow for me information. But given the likely high amount of sin during a lifetime, seems like a hard thing to break down. I'd perhaps limit it to either the most recent sin they committed or committed against them. Or the worst sin they committed or was committed against them - based around the Humanity associated with it.
    Level two - I'm not great with mechanics. But I would note that more detail is necessary. Whether one needs to remained in eyesight or not. Is this a thing that lasts all night or a scene? Do they need to touch them again for each use?
    Level three - This power just seems confused as far as theme. Passing on this mandate, sure. But the entire blood-slave zombie seems out of left field. Seeing as this is a power based around sin and preventing sin, not necromancy. As well, I didn't really see if there was a zombie limit or something. I'd probably rework this level overall. Though, I don't see a need for the special embrace to be tied to a power and might as well make it part of their weakness.
    Level four - My main question would be whether this even works on beings on a Path. Especially given the idea that such a reaction would likely be a sin for some (as well as rather strange). Secondary to this, it seems a bit strong. But I'm not mechanically minded enough to know how one might adjust it.
    Level five - I've never heard of a dubbelsauger and Google only really shows me results from an old DnD thing. It seems a bit unnecessary when the primary focus has been Judas, yet to thrown in a somewhat esoteric spirit creature. As for the actual use, it seems generally odd. Just not seeing it meld well.

    Weakness - I see how you tried to connect this, but it doesn't really feel compelling. Both the weird marks and silver weakness seem off. I'd probably either try to gear it towards betrayal or sinning, somehow.


    My biggest question would be the purpose of this Bloodline. Is this something for NPC uses, a specific game, or for general use? Because overall it states a general idea (line of Judas who pursue the punishment of sin). But seems to not really live up to it well (super secret bloodline with a mixed bag of powers and somewhat mixed theme). If this is just for an NPC, it'd probably be fine. But it'd need more cohesion to really be meaningful for an average player, imo. Honestly, one could probably just adapt it as a bloodline of the Baali who embraced Judas. Daimoinon actually does a lot of what you need here, aside from the level three.

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    • #3
      Well, I see some possibilities, but I would also assume the Sons of Judas to be extremely rare. I see two ways for them to be used, offhand. One is as an NPC, which would be kinda cool. The other is for a Player Character to in effect be turned and feel his/her own free will dissolve under the (for all intents and purposes) geas of this Bloodline.

      JMHO

      Comment


      • #4
        The Disciplines also need to make more sense - Celerity + Fortitude has to represent something to do with the outlook of the bloodline. All Disciplines result from the curse of Caine, and exemplify and are invoked by focusing on character flaws, whether they be pride, the will to dominate, animal hunger, vanity, deception and so on. Animalism, for example, is in-clan for those who are cut off from humanity, who need to dwell in the wilds or wastes, and live a transitory existence. Fortitude is in-clan for those who have combat aptitude, but hold a passive and even cowardly attitude, holding back from violence and focusing on survival. Celerity, whether in the Toreador, Brujah or Assamites, seems to indicate hastiness, headiness and overwhelming passion. You need to put these together in a way that matches and reinforces your concept.

        Comment


        • #5
          Monalfie, you make a number of good points.

          I've been considering finding a way to get them more involved in greater vampire society, but their attitude toward others tends to make them likely outcasts, if not just independents.

          As for the red hair thing, that's folkloric. Judas was said to have had red hair, and one of the indicators (other than being born with a caul or teeth) of possibly becoming a vampire after death was having red hair. Just thought it would make a cool thing to set the bloodline apart, kind of thing.

          As far as the Discipline is concerned:
          ​Level One - I agree that it should be better defined as to the relevance/recentness of the sin involved, but I guess that would be up to the Storyteller. Might have to put something in there regarding it, anyway.
          ​Level Two - I figure it would last for a scene, probably. And you wouldn't need to keep touching the victim. I'll work on it.
          ​Level Three - The need to use a Discipline to Embrace is part of their weakness, so that was the idea for that. As for the blood-slave bit, I wanted the power to do more than just sire progeny. I do see what you mean about it being more linked to necromancy, though.
          ​Level Four - As for strong, I actually thought it was a bit under-powered, given that it's a level four power. I would think it would work on beings on a Path of Enlightenment, too, though, just because it's linked to their failing of God's plan. Have to work that in, somehow.
          ​Level Five - I'm actually surprised that Google doesn't give better results for the dubbelsauger. It's actually an old Yiddish folklore vampire that I've seen in a couple of books growing up (of course, you'd think I'd be able to find it now, right?). The idea was that some of the Sons would haunt specific families over the years and this was one of the ways they would do it. I was shocked that no one had ever used the dubbelsauger in White Wolf yet, and I thought it seemed to fit the Sons' style. Besides, it makes as much thematic sense as Heart of Darkness does to Serpentis, so why not?

          ​As to the weaknesses, they're kind of there to remind the bloodline of the betrayal that created them.

          ​For purpose, it's up to the players. I was thinking NPC's or all-Sons type games. But, I can see how fitting one into a troupe could be doable, as well, depending on the story and players involved. Just depends, I guess. I don't really know enough about the Baali to get the comparison, myself, but I suppose it's possible, if I could do the research, they might be the parent clan. Dunno.

          ​Any suggestions on mainstreaming the bloodline to make them more of a playable player character?

          Comment


          • #6
            Outcasts or independent seems fine. Just the way it was presented 'they have their own form of the Masquerade' made it sound strange to me. Bloodlines are usually small enough that they don't need excessive recognition for what they are. But there is a fine line between 'that weird redhead in Elysium always talking about god that plays at Batman' instead of 'mysterious dudes I've never heard of that follow their own weird hierarchy.' I would suggest just writing their slight integration with the Camarilla as a means to seek out sinners.

            As far as red hair, that's up to you. I just think it should be established what actually causes it. People should just know if that's a thing that happens or actually a deliberate targeting method. If someone is embraced or playing the character, they should know what to expect.

            - My issue with three, blood slave aside, is just that I think there are better weaknesses overall. The special embrace requirement seems unnecessary, as I note elsewhere. But following up on it here, I'm not seeing how needing a special embrace goes well there. Most weaknesses are a day to day sort of thing, whereas a given Kindred will rarely embrace. I think it should be something more geared with that. A Tzimisce will have to sleep with their soul nightly, a Lasombra will possibly have their reflection come up nightly, so on. A Judas might never embrace in an entire campaign.
            - As for level four, again, I'm not the most mechanically minded. But it is seemingly a save or get fucked mechanic. If the user succeeds, the other person is just utterly screwed whoever they are, both giving secrets and not being able to initiate combat. Idk, seems like a lot. I think even Presence 5 gives more recourse.
            - My counterstatement would be that the poor theme of including Serpentis five isn't a good excuse for doing the same elsewhere. Even knowing this folklore now, it doesn't really go along with the theme of Judas. Whereas Serpentis five at least relates to Set/Egypt.

            Comment


            • #7
              David, thank you. Although, it's less of a geas than it is simply a mandate that the members of the bloodline assume they've been given by God or His angels as part of their curse. They retain their free will, and while they all feel driven to uncover sins, what they do with what they discover is entirely up to the individual. While most feel it appropriate to avenge or punish sin, there could just as easily be Sons who are blackmailers, as well.

              ​Sultanabdal, you make an interesting point. I never really looked that far into the secondary Disciplines that clans generally have, taking them for granted after the signature ones. It's an interesting take, and I certainly think I'll have to look into gearing them to the bloodline more closely.

              ​Monalfie, thanks again. I think I'm thinking historically, too. The bloodline predates the formation of the Camarilla and Sabbat, so "their form of the Masquerade" kind of fits, in a way. They also have at least a partial society of their own, as small a group as they are. But, you're right, spread as thin as they'd be, and integrated into greater vampire society, they'd have to fit in somehow.
              ​As for the hair, it would almost have to be as a result of their Embrace, just a side effect, if you will. Sort of a way to help identify them.

              Disciplinewise:
              ​- I agree on the weakness, and I've already got weaknesses lined up. Even if I don't go with the obvious feeding and/or the weakness to silver, I could always have each and every one of them have the Repelled by Crosses Flaw (as a result of Judas' betrayal, again). There are options, at any rate.
              ​- Level four, you bring up a good point there, as well. What if there were a contested Willpower roll involved to see if it affected the target? Would that work? Or, maybe a modified Humanity/Path roll to break free of the effect every turn? Ideas?
              ​- Too true on level five. I guess I'm just grasping at straws to keep a pet idea. That, and I don't know what I would replace it with, just yet.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Vikken,

                Interesting concept. I am inclined to agree with a lot of the other posters here in that the Sons of Judas should be incorporated into the sects somehow in order to encourage interest and involvement from players.

                Historically, there was an offshoot of the Followers of Set with the same seed, but radically different interpretation: http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Children_of_Judas_(VTM)
                Thematically, the bloodline could be theorized by Noddists to be a repentant subsect of either the Setites or the Baali, the specifics of which should be left as a matter of mystery. Or, given the choice of disciplines, you could swap Celerity for Auspex (the better to feel their self-flagellation) and have them be a peculiar branch of the Cappadocians.

                Also, the emphasis on red hair can also be interpreted as a link to Set.
                [Set] was also believed to have white skin and red hair, with the Egyptians comparing his hair to the pelt of a donkey. Due to his association with red. Red animals and even people with red hair were thought to be his followers. These animals were sometimes sacrificed, while the link between Set and red-heads - usually foreigners - gave him godhood over foreign lands. With the relationship to foreign peoples, Set was also a god of overseas trade of oils, wood and metals from over the sea and through desert routes. He was given lordship over western Asia because of this.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Considering that "Judges" is already a nickname of the Assamites, these guys could just be a young christian offshoot of the Assamites.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hey, all. I'm back. Sorry it's been so long. Medical stuff.

                    ​Anyway, thank you all for your input. It really is helpful.

                    ​As for origins, I really don't have a preference for parent clan, and I prefer to leave it a mystery, just noting that it would have to have been a powerful Cainite to embrace Judas at the time of the Crucifixion (being so close to Jesus' presence and all). Other than that, I'd leave it up to the Storyteller.

                    ​As to Disciplines, how about this:

                    Clan Disciplines:
                    Auspex
                    Obfuscate

                    Mortification

                    ​The Discipline of Mortification began with the Sons of Judas, some say with Judas himself. It is believed to be a divinely assigned tool, the means by which the bloodline is to carry on its Mandate to uncover and punish sins.

                    ​1 - Tracks of Sin: The vampire can see sins affecting a subject and follow them using a metaphysical link.

                    ​System: ​The sins in question must be significant to the subject, a source of pain or gain, weighing on his or her mind and spirit; otherwise, they can be anything. To view them, the vampire concentrates on the subject for a turn and rolls Perception + Mortification (difficulty 6). The number of successes achieved indicates the amount of information gleaned as to the frequency and extent of sin. One success might indicate a one-time theft of bread for survival, while five successes would reveal a habit of bilking old ladies. Failure on this roll reveals nothing, while a botch projects the vampire's own sins onto the target.
                    ​To use the power to track the subject for the night, the vampire must touch the target, spend a blood point to establish the link, and make another Perception + Mortification roll (also difficulty 6). Thereafter, he can track the target with ease based on the success of the roll.

                    ​2 - Mortification of the Flesh: ​The vampire can harm the target by harming himself.

                    System: The character must touch the victim and spend a blood point, then roll Dexterity + Mortification (difficulty of the target's Stamina + Fortitude) while flagellating, cutting, or otherwise mortifying himself. For each success garnered, the victim receives one unsoakable health level of lethal damage for each level of damage the vampire does to himself. Further, wound penalties apply as if the damage were one level higher.


                    3 - Marks of Sin: ​The vampire causes the sinner to become obvious to others in his sin.

                    System: ​The vampire must touch the target and spend a blood point, then roll Manipulation + Mortification against a difficulty of the target's Manipulation + Subterfuge. Success causes the subject to be "marked" by his sins, possibly suffering boils, a hunch, weird patterns or marks on his skin; the details are left up to the Storyteller, but should be appropriate to the sins he has committed. For each success the vampire gains, the target suffers a +2 increase to social difficulties (maximum difficulty 9) that lasts for one week per success. So, with three successes, the target could suffer up to +6 to social difficulties for three weeks.


                    4 - Burden of Original Sin: ​The vampire traps the target in a montage of all his sins and his inherent evil.

                    System: ​The vampire must touch the target and make eye contact, then spend a blood point and make a roll of Manipulation + Empathy against a difficulty of the subject's Humanity or Path rating. If the roll succeeds, the target collapses into a ball, trapped in a mindscape of horror at his own actions and worthlessness. He can interact with others verbally, usually begging for help or release, answering questions (usually relating to the sins he is showing himself), but he can take no other actions other than to defend himself if attacked. These results last for one turn per success on the roll, minus any successes made on a target's Humanity/Path roll to save himself made after the first turn. Prolonged use of this power can cause derangements.

                    5 - Wages of Sin: ​The vampire calls on holy might to empower his next attack to strike down the wicked.

                    System: ​Usually used with a melee weapon, the vampire spends two blood points and rolls Strength + Conscience (difficulty 8) to channel holy judgment. Each success adds one die of non-soakable aggravated damage to the vampire's next successful attack. This power can be used with fists or claws, but cannot be used with ranged weapons, such as firearms or thrown weapons.



                    ​Well, that's what I've got for now. Let me know what you guys think, and any suggestions you might have. Thanks.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Mortification is basically reskinned Daimoinon.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Really? Where would I find information on Daimoinon?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Several of the powers are similar indeed

                          Here is Daimonion
                          Last edited by Boneguard; 10-27-2017, 06:36 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I do see what you mean with the similarities, but with Daimoinon being essentially exclusive to the Baali, would it really be an issue?

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                            • #15
                              I think it being a reskinned Daimonion could be interesting, it has some story potential with a possible Link to Baali(or Salubri..)

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