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Lasombra Weakness and Cast no Reflection and video recordings

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  • Lasombra Weakness and Cast no Reflection and video recordings

    How do you handle this? Do Lasombra and vampires with the Cast no Reflection flaw show up on video? Would you treat them differently or the same?

    On the one hand, "I use a webcam and a big screen to simulate a mirror" seems like an easy way around the whole "you don't see yourself" problem.
    On the other hand, it feels like it could turn the whole flaw into a massive boost for sneaky vampires. Of course now, anyone watching live might notice the "invisible" vampire on the feed.

    I'm just not sure how to handle it

  • #2
    I'm not sure how many modern cameras use mirrors in them, but I would say if the camera has a mirror, no one sees the person on the camera. If the camera has no mirrors, fully visible.

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    • #3
      I go with them not showing on cameras, photos, etc. Just their visual image, though - any sensors work just fine, and automated systems would lock on them. They simply leave no visual trace of their passing. It's something that could be useful depending on the situation, especially for stealth, but is generally a big Masquerade issue. It would be an even bigger bummer for modern Lasombra, who have gotten used to their photos and videos.

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      • #4
        You could always have their clothes record. You're a lot less sneaky when your t-shirt and jeans are on the security footage.

        The problem is that this opens up the game to potentially silly naked heist scenarios.


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        • #5
          Kind of like this...

          http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0027.html

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          • #6
            I would say they are visible on anything else. The fact that they can still see themselves is a minor boost compared to not allowing them to be invisible to security cameras, and not making them such a blatant masquerade violation in modern times. Frankly, this is exactly the kind of complicated headache that caused the weaknesses to be redesigned to be extremely subtle in Requiem.

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            • #7
              So. The Lasombra weakness ties into older myths about vampires being allergic to silver - older mirrors had a silver backing, somiy depends on how strict you want to be with the rules.

              You can have them not reflected in antique mirrors; have them cast no reflection in any mirrors; or have them not appear in any reflective surface, like water.

              Or you can simply declare that digital cameras don't use mirrors and the Lasombra weakness is excluded.

              Cheers!


              If you don't use an Oxford comma, I feel bad for you, son,
              'Cuz I got ninety-nine problems, but clarity ain't one.

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              • #8
                Yes that's what I kinda did. I said "digital cameras work fine, but anything with mirrors in it like a SLR camera doesn't." I'm not sure how security cameras work though. I guess modern ones are digital and without any mirrors, but I'm not sure about older analog ones.

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                • #9
                  I generally don't let them show up on film because I like to play up the completely dependent upon others to see themselves. I mean they have obtenebration getting past security cameras is not going to be an issue. Plus letting some hunter catch you by looking at their celphone...

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Quatar View Post
                    Yes that's what I kinda did. I said "digital cameras work fine, but anything with mirrors in it like a SLR camera doesn't." I'm not sure how security cameras work though. I guess modern ones are digital and without any mirrors, but I'm not sure about older analog ones.
                    Keep in mind that the mirror in the SLR is only used for the viewfinder. It isn't actually used as part of the picture-taking process.

                    It's a great way to mess with your SLR-equipped vampire hunter if you are so inclined.


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                    • #11
                      I think they won't show up on digital cameras either .

                      Explanation: To determine if it shows up or not we need to look at the actual qualities and origins of this supernatural phenomena and what we know about the abyss and the Lasombra's ability to manipulate shadows(and light by extension? ) :

                      Explanation #1:
                      1. The photons bouncing from the Lasombra's body are supernaturally manipulated, that much is evident also in the fact that they cast no shadow, hinting that light passes around them but then how are they seen at all? I suggest that much like in an SLR mirror the Lasombra does return an image but the photons are supernaturally too fragile to be imprinted on any media and either distort or break supernaturally.

                      Explanation #2:
                      2. The Abyss - When you look into the abyss the abyss looks back at you , that is reflection likely at the core of this curse and perhaps the light the Lasombra reflects is so uncanny that whomever tries to look at their reflection unconsciously blocks it out in a similar manner to how people would refuse to see a Vampire using Obfuscate... so that kind of psychic reflection extends to video cameras because its not really about the physical properties of the reflection. (In that case I would allow Auspex to attempt to see the image though)

                      Explanation #3:
                      3. Lasombra are the shadow , they absorb all light and only selectively cast it back to conscious beings around them, this happens subconsciously by their subconscious or Beast that is, so its not something controlled..
                      Last edited by RadX; 11-12-2017, 11:00 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by RadX View Post
                        that much is evident also in the fact that they cast no shadow
                        Is it possible you're thinking of the Xi Dundu? Part of their weakness is that they cast no shadow.

                        (Which is a nearly impossible to run weakness, if you maintain any level of consistency.)

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                        • #13
                          We don't need a scientific explanation. The World of Darkness is a magical world. The Lasombra weakness represents the old idea that vampires in general don't cast reflections, and that is because vampires are not suppose to have a soul, and folklore holds that mirrors reflect one's soul. That is why breaking a mirror is supposed to bring bad luck. And it is also why some cultures had a fear of cameras "stealing" their soul if their picture was taken.

                          Because of that, I would normally hold that a Lasombra's image does not show up. However, there is a valid concern that the clan weakness now becomes a benefit, and I understand why some ST's will not allow that. I think a compromise could be reached that says, "Lasombra cannot see their own image EVER. If a camera or video recorder take a picture, they can't see it. However, the curse works in a way that is always to the detriment of the Lasombra. OTHER people when reviewing security footage can see just enough of a distorted image to make out the Lasombra, but sometimes they also notice that a Lasombra does not appear. Whatever the worse situation is (or even scenarios both over time), that is what happens to the Lasombra."

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                            We don't need a scientific explanation. The World of Darkness is a magical world. The Lasombra weakness represents the old idea that vampires in general don't cast reflections, and that is because vampires are not suppose to have a soul, and folklore holds that mirrors reflect one's soul. That is why breaking a mirror is supposed to bring bad luck. And it is also why some cultures had a fear of cameras "stealing" their soul if their picture was taken.

                            Because of that, I would normally hold that a Lasombra's image does not show up. However, there is a valid concern that the clan weakness now becomes a benefit, and I understand why some ST's will not allow that. I think a compromise could be reached that says, "Lasombra cannot see their own image EVER. If a camera or video recorder take a picture, they can't see it. However, the curse works in a way that is always to the detriment of the Lasombra. OTHER people when reviewing security footage can see just enough of a distorted image to make out the Lasombra, but sometimes they also notice that a Lasombra does not appear. Whatever the worse situation is (or even scenarios both over time), that is what happens to the Lasombra."
                            Doable, but I don't care so much for that level of inconsistency. Vampire weaknesses, by their nature of being the weaknesses of vampires, should be more or less static. They are inconvenient, but in a predictable way. (The exception being Malkavian insanity. And even then, an individual Malkavian is mad in a particular way; everything else is affectation.) Vampires loath their limitations, but nonetheless learn to manage them as best they can.

                            For me, it's just not fair or thematically consistent for a weakness to change depending on how inconvenient it is for the vampire. It should be based on a rule that can be understood. Anything else, and you risk screwing over the players in a way that isn't fun or fair.


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                            • #15
                              The main question here is why they have that curse and what the curse aims to achieve. Are they cursed to never show a shape other than their own or is the weakness specifically targeting mirrors (as if it could be if it was punishment for vanity)? I read around that a DA supplement states that the curse is: "Behold my darkest childe, who/killed with shadow./Let the shadows veil his soul, so/that all may know his crime."
                              Should this be the case then they are probably not even showin an image on cameras and digital supports (and not even the clothes they're wearing: RAW is that clothes and worn items are obscured too).

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