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  • #16
    Yes, as I know, Khay'tall 's final death was never confirmed.

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    • #17
      One of you is on the money.


      Matthew Dawkins
      In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing


      Website: http://www.matthewdawkins.com
      Patreon: http://https://www.patreon.com/matthewdawkins

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      • #18
        Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post
        One of you is on the money.
        Is the fact that we both used the word "money" an hint that he really is a True Brujah?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
          In the Dark Ages Novel Setite Khay'tall had hidden his heart away and it ended up back in Setite hands. Who knows what may have happened afterwards.
          Ended up in an amulet, just like Ariel in "the Tempest"

          Originally posted by Nagaina View Post
          Not to mention all the Theophidian fundamentalists. Bastards never give up.
          The Setite Path of Typhon adherents...

          If we go for a more complete reading of "Prospero" then Khay'tall may be in the pendant and inflencing "Prospero" But I doubt that's what Nagaina is getting at.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Illithid View Post
            The Setite Path of Typhon adherents...
            Good catch. If Prospero is Khay'tall, then I wonder if he is aware of the return of the Trinity?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

              Good catch. If Prospero is Khay'tall, then I wonder if he is aware of the return of the Trinity?
              It would make thematic sense considering the chapter we meet him in is the one dealing with Constantinople.

              However I err towards Tanitbaal due to the fact he's using some sort of demonic sorcery to heal Beckett's wounds. Saying that he doesn't match the physical description of either Taanitbaal or Khay'tall but that wouldn't be a problem for a Cainite of sufficiently advanced Viccisitude.

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              • #22
                In the wiki itself there's some speculation on Prospero being the Sultan Ameirin of Ankara, a Brujah infernalist mentioned in Tome of Secrets - or at least that Beckett might believe it so. How much weight does one put on it and what could it mean for a chronicle, i would say is pretty up for grabs.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                  In the wiki itself there's some speculation on Prospero being the Sultan Ameirin of Ankara, a Brujah infernalist mentioned in Tome of Secrets - or at least that Beckett might believe it so. How much weight does one put on it and what could it mean for a chronicle, i would say is pretty up for grabs.
                  Prospero IS Ameirin. Of that there is no doubt.

                  - Saga

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                  • #24
                    Tanitbaal-Sahar is known to have masqueraded as a Brujah. Methinks "Ameirin" is just another pseudonym. There's always a deeper layer to the Jyhad...

                    There's a fun case to be made for him being Khay'tall too, though. Both Kindred make great choices for the "real" Prospero.


                    Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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                    • #25
                      Khay'Tall had no knowledge of thaumaturgy and didn't knew anything about the Baali, infernalism and so on; He had quarrels with the Setites, but not with his "extended family"; besides Sarassine killed him (as of Costantinople by Night).

                      For Prospero it might be wiser to look for an old thaumaturge with a knack for diabolism,

                      who probably came from a Caananite or post-Caananite culture

                      BJD p 438
                      Prospero: Jacinth, please send a security team to remove the body
                      bag’s contents down to the guest quarters. Yes, leave him in the
                      bag for now. Thank you. Raoul, I’m going to need the work case
                      off the desk in my downstairs study and if you’d be so good as to
                      put together a hospitality package and bring both up here to the
                      sitting room, that would be excellent. Thank you.
                      [PAUSE]
                      Astarte’s suppurating teats, Beckett, didn’t I warn you to stay
                      out of Constantinople?


                      with great knowledge about occultism and indo-persian mysticism (which could mean we are not looking for a western thaumaturge, but for a Dur An Ki master)

                      Prospero: Because if Ahura and Angra are one being, there must be
                      two others to craft the balance of a trinity — Amesha Spenta and
                      Azhi Dahaka. And of those two, only one was a serpent. A dragon.
                      Was there a pit already


                      who knew of the secret well of Damascus and its destiny, and with deep knowledge of the Baali and their inner workings
                      Prospero: Good. Mary the Black disappears from what I know of infernalist
                      history after a certain point — she murdered Michael,
                      then fled. The last known sighting of her was in Damascus just
                      before the Ashirra dropped the hammer on the Baali nest lairing
                      there

                      who has been alive for more than 2000 years and with big problems with his family and the setites.


                      Speaking strictly as the author of that section, I can assure you that Prospero is not an author insert. He has merely chosen to be pseudononymous for the last two thousand years or so because his extended family hates him and wants him to die. A lot. Not to mention all the Theophidian fundamentalists. Bastards never give up.

                      who is suspected to be the member of some secret society

                      Unsubstantiated rumors place Prospero as a Baali, a Salubri, or one of
                      the Inconnu
                      . His real name is a closely-guarded secret.
                      On good authority I’m told Prospero is an agent of the Inconnu. Somehow he
                      protects among the most hunted and reviled Cainites. Look at how he’s taken
                      Ruthven under his wing. And you. -L
                      Maybe we are just looking at the wrong secret society.

                      V20 (and I suspect V5 also) put quite the effort in salvaging the Black Hand and giving more scope and focus to the Baali. Even more, a lot of hidden plots of the World of Darkness are the subject of the New Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra which shed a new light about them (the identity of the Capuchin, Lazarus game, the origin of the Baali and so on...).

                      Just think about the new focus Izhim Ur-Bhaal has been given, or the re-established connections between Ur-Shulgi and The Unnamed Baali.
                      Even more a lot of characters in the new Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra either are old characters whose secrets have been explained in that book (Elimelech as Izahia, the Capuchin as Lazarus/Japeth/Byzar), either are new characters who had quite the spotlight recently (Tick Tock Man).

                      Given that the author of Prospero's chapter, Myranda, has quite the love for Baali and infernalism, and since she was one of the writers of guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra (and the author of some great books like Road of Sins) and given that her signature says "Moloch PR" I dare say that's the direction we should look at.

                      Dawkins said one of you "was on the money". And one of you suggested Tanitbaal-Sahar.

                      So I can bet easily that this is the Character sheet of Prospero.


                      Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra, p.225

                      Sahar-Hanibaal,
                      Dominion of the Order of Moloch
                      Clan: Baali
                      Sire: Tanitbaal-Sahar


                      Nature: Caretaker
                      Demeanor: Survivor
                      Generation: Seventh
                      Embrace: 195 B.C.E.

                      Apparent Age: Early 20s

                      Physical: Strength 6, Dexterity 6, Stamina 6
                      Social: Charisma 6, Manipulation 6, Appearance 6
                      Mental: Intelligence 6, Perception 6, Wits 6

                      Talents: Alertness 5, Awareness 6 (external psychic influences), Brawl 6 (fighting dirty), Empathy 6, Expression 6, Intimidation 4, Leadership 5, Subterfuge 5

                      Skills: Craft 5 (musical instruments), Etiquette 6 (diplomacy), Melee 6, Performance 6 (music) Knowledges: Academics 6, Computer 2, Investigation 5, Medicine 6, Occult 6 (infernalism and
                      infernalists)
                      , Politics 5, Science 6 (astronomy; mathematics)

                      Disciplines: Auspex 6, Daimoinon 6, Celerity 3, Fortitude 5, Obfuscate 6, Presence 3, Dur-an-Ki 6 (Music of the Spheres 5, Spirit Manipulation 5, Whispers of the Heavens 4)

                      Backgrounds: Allies 6 (the Order of Moloch in its entirety), Generation 5, Herd 3, Resources 3, Retainers 6 (bound spirits), Black Hand Membership 3, Title 3 (Dominion of the Order of Moloch)

                      Virtues: Conviction 5, Courage 5, Instinct 2
                      Morality: Path of the Hive 9
                      Willpower: 9

                      Given the fact that the Order of Moloch and Old Clan Tzimisce are both members of the Tal'Mahe'Ra, that would explain why, of all places, Lambach Ruthven would search haven in Prospero's Sanctum.

                      Which by the way sheda new light also on the whole "Lambach is Lord Ruthven " theory.
                      Lord Ruthven feud with Yorak, who had dealings with Kupala (a mighty demon) and who was the undisputed master and promoter of vicissitude, might be explained also in light of the Tal'Mahe'ra ideas about infernalism and vicissitude.
                      Last edited by Undead rabbit; 03-15-2019, 10:16 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Here his story.

                        Background: Sahar-Hanibaal was born in the years of
                        Carthage’s slow and painful decline
                        , the youngest son of a
                        humble family with far too many mouths to feed as it stood.
                        Fortunately, in those days, there were solutions to such difficulties:
                        the wealthy and powerful were always at pains to keep
                        a healthy offering to the gods at hand, and were becoming
                        more and more loath to offer up their own children when
                        another’s offspring would suffice just as well. With his sleek
                        black hair, huge dark eyes, dimpled cheeks, and quick, clever
                        hands, he fetched a handsome price on the auction block.
                        In this new house, he was never hungry or cold. He was
                        kept well-fed and well-dressed, in preparation for the day
                        when his throat would be cut over the sacrificial bowl. That
                        day never came. He grew from well-fattened childhood into
                        gawky adolescence and slender young adulthood, going the
                        temple for more than instruction in the proper methods of
                        worship, the songs of praise, and the means of sacrifice. Even
                        so, it was there, in Tanit’s house among the temples, that he
                        met his fate. What the goddess’ philosopher-childe saw him as
                        he knelt singing the words of her glory, he still does not entirely
                        understand and likely never will. Still, when Tanitbaal-Sahar
                        laid eyes upon him, it was then that he became not a sacrifice

                        in waiting, but a sacrifice in truth. His adopted parents were
                        first astonished, and then greatly pleased, when such a highborn
                        lord of the city requested the use of him for a companion
                        and, within days, he was ensconced in the modest household
                        of his new patron, serving as his scribe and assistant.
                        Far-traveled, intellectually questing, and troublesomely
                        unorthodox, Tanitbaal-Sahar was deep in the throes of
                        creation, writing not only a series of travelogues but
                        also laying out the fundamental tenets of what would
                        become the Via Desideratio. Sahar-Hanibaal became the
                        first whetstone against which he honed the knife of his
                        doctrine. His elders, with his grandsire Moloch among
                        them, vehemently disagreed with Tanitbaal-Sahar and
                        his philosophies, and when Tanitbaal-Sahar persisted,
                        punishment fell on the head of Sahar-Hanibaal
                        . When
                        Sahar-Hanibaal awoke in the house of Tanit, the taste of
                        his sire’s blood still clung to his tongue.
                        The night of his painful death and unplanned Embrace
                        was the last he ever saw his sire. Tanitbaal-Sahar fled
                        Carthage, taking nothing with him but the bare necessities
                        of survival and his most current writings. He ran to Rome
                        and took shelter there under the protection of its Prince,
                        out of Moloch’s reach. Sahar-Hanibaal spent the first surreal
                        and disorienting nights of his unlife under the care of his
                        grandsire, Tanit, who chose to stand between him and the
                        wrath of Moloch.
                        Beneath the aegis of Tanit’s protection,
                        he learned the first lessons of what he had become at her
                        knee, the truth that had hidden beneath shadows and
                        praise-songs, and came at last to understand the purpose
                        his life — rootless, waiting — had lacked. When Tanit left
                        Carthage for Tyre, Sahar-Hanibaal followed to repay the
                        debt he owed his grandsire for sparing his existence. He
                        served as her left hand for centuries, mastering the arts of
                        warfare to enforce her primacy as eldest when Carthage fell.
                        War followed with the Followers of Set,
                        the Assamites,
                        and his own kin.
                        When Azaneal assumed the title of Shaitan,
                        Tanit received Azaneal’s ambassadors at her hidden court,
                        listened to what they had to say, and quietly prepared to
                        abandon Tyre as she had abandoned Carthage before it.
                        Tanit fell into torpor due to an ambush, leaving the reins
                        of leadership in the hands of her grandchilde.
                        them since. He rallied the survivors of Azaneal’s first attack
                        cast aside the ages-old prohibition in the Via Hyron
                        against the practice of blood sorcery. After a century of
                        treachery and bloodshed, Chorazin fell and Azaneal fell
                        with it. Sahar-Hanibaal sang Tyre’s Well of Sacrifice to
                        sleep, and sought sanctuary in the court of a fellow scholar
                        in the far north with what remained of his own people.
                        In the far north, among their reclusive cousins of the Old
                        Clan Tzimisce, the Molochim found peace and safety for
                        the first time in centuries.
                        It could not, of course, last. Sahar-Hanibaal had chosen
                        a duty for himself; Azaneal might be gone, but the idiot
                        spawn of Nergal would keep trying their luck until one
                        of them broke the world. There were more than enough
                        untenanted, untended Wells lying in forgotten corners of
                        the world, and the Children of the Outer Dark, forever
                        restless, were growing even more so.
                        The Order of Moloch
                        came forth from the mountain fastness of their allies to
                        hunt their infernalist kinsmen again and found that, while
                        the world changed, some things never did. The Well of
                        Carthage may be nothing more than rubble, but something
                        stirs there and casts the smoke of burning innocents into
                        the night sky again after thousands of years. The ancient
                        city of the First Tribe, lost for even longer, has been
                        found by forces inimical to the Molochim mission, the
                        Maw of the Sleepers alive and gestating darkness greater
                        than even Nergal in its depths. The choice to ally with
                        the Tal’Mahe’Ra, made in cold deliberation and in full
                        knowledge of the price of failure, has thankfully thus far
                        proven a fruitful one, even if the cost of attaining it was
                        painfully, personally high. The world may yet have a future,
                        and Sahar-Hanibaal some hope of seeing it come to pass."



                        And the Black Hand really really hates the Theophidians bastards.

                        Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra p.33

                        Followers of Set
                        The Followers of Set seem like an obvious addition to
                        the Sect, as their paradigm does not deviate much from
                        the Tal’Mahe’Ra veneration of the Clan sires. However,
                        the Sect has been engaged in war with the Setites since
                        the earliest nights of its history.
                        Originally stemming from
                        competition over Enoch, millennia ago, later conflicts rose
                        from the Serpents proving adept at manipulating both the
                        Tal’Mahe’Ra and the Assamites into conflict.
                        p.40


                        Interestingly, the most closely aligned
                        faction of Kindred to the Tal’Mahe’Ra in this regard are
                        the Followers of Set. However, mentioning this to a dominion
                        is grounds for impalement from anus to mouth as
                        an object lesson in keeping one’s imagination from roving

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Sahar is, or was, supposedly bound to Enoch as a prisoner of the Black Hand. Prospero has presumably held dominion over the Caymans for long enough to become a notable power. It is reasonable to believe Sahar escaped Enoch before it's destruction - but that was probably too recent for him to establish himself in the Caymans.

                          When did he get out of Enoch?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
                            Khay'Tall had no knowledge of thaumaturgy and didn't knew anything about the Baali, infernalism and so on; He had quarrels with the Setites, but not with his "extended family"; besides Sarassine killed him (as of Costantinople by Night).

                            For Prospero it might be wiser to look for an old thaumaturge with a knack for diabolism,

                            who probably came from a Caananite or post-Caananite culture

                            BJD p 438




                            with great knowledge about occultism and indo-persian mysticism (which could mean we are not looking for a western thaumaturge, but for a Dur An Ki master)





                            who knew of the secret well of Damascus and its destiny, and with deep knowledge of the Baali and their inner workings



                            who has been alive for more than 2000 years and with big problems with his family and the setites.





                            who is suspected to be the member of some secret society





                            Maybe we are just looking at the wrong secret society.

                            V20 (and I suspect V5 also) put quite the effort in salvaging the Black Hand and giving more scope and focus to the Baali. Even more, a lot of hidden plots of the World of Darkness are the subject of the New Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra which shed a new light about them (the identity of the Capuchin, Lazarus game, the origin of the Baali and so on...).

                            Just think about the new focus Izhim Ur-Bhaal has been given, or the re-established connections between Ur-Shulgi and The Unnamed Baali.
                            Even more a lot of characters in the new Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra either are old characters whose secrets have been explained in that book (Elimelech as Izahia, the Capuchin as Lazarus/Japeth/Byzar), either are new characters who had quite the spotlight recently (Tick Tock Man).

                            Given that the author of Prospero's chapter, Myranda, has quite the love for Baali and infernalism, and since she was one of the writers of guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra (and the author of some great books like Road of Sins) and given that her signature says "Moloch PR" I dare say that's the direction we should look at.

                            Dawkins said one of you "was on the money". And one of you suggested Tanitbaal-Sahar.

                            So I can bet easily that this is the Character sheet of Prospero.


                            Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra, p.225




                            Given the fact that the Order of Moloch and Old Clan Tzimisce are both members of the Tal'Mahe'Ra, that would explain why, of all places, Lambach Ruthven would search haven in Prospero's Sanctum.

                            Which by the way sheda new light also on the whole "Lambach is Lord Ruthven " theory.
                            Lord Ruthven feud with Yorak, who had dealings with Kupala (a mighty demon) and who was the undisputed master and promoter of vicissitude, might be explained also in light of the Tal'Mahe'ra ideas about infernalism and vicissitude.
                            Seems ver convincing. My money is in Tanithbaal-Sahar, except for one thing. Of he was Sultan in Ankara, and Camilla was Prince of Rome in V20DA, how did he failed to feel his lover across the Mediterranean as Sultan of Ankara? Let's say Camilla wasn't able to do so. How in the bloody hell didn't Tanith felt him in Ankara (since he was being searched by sorcerous means too)?!?!

                            - Saga
                            Last edited by Saga; 03-16-2019, 03:42 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
                              Sahar is, or was, supposedly bound to Enoch as a prisoner of the Black Hand. Prospero has presumably held dominion over the Caymans for long enough to become a notable power. It is reasonable to believe Sahar escaped Enoch before it's destruction - but that was probably too recent for him to establish himself in the Caymans.

                              When did he get out of Enoch?

                              As for V20 Enoch is still standing, so he didn't escaped Enoch, he was just relased by Izhim. Besides he became the lord of the Caymans in "recent" times.


                              He became sole owner of his tropical islands in the nights before it became a hotspot for wealthy kine, supposedly due to his vast cache of pirate treasure and a herd formed from generations of investment bankers.

                              The first bank in the Cayman isle opened in 1953. So his take-over must have been recent.

                              And elder as powerful as him, with allies like Elimelech, Djuah, Izhim Ur-Bhaal, the Amenti, the Nagaraja, the Capuchin, the Itarajan,the Old Clan Tzimisce, the Liches and so on surely will not have many problems at claiming a dominion like the Caymans Islands (and from who? The Serpents of Lighs? Some Lasombra? A couple of Brujah pirates? In the Carribeans there are only two vampires whose generation is lower than seventh, and none is older than Sahar)
                              Last edited by Undead rabbit; 03-15-2019, 06:50 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Even more, there are good reasons for the Dominion of the Order of Moloch to be at the Caymans Islands.

                                From Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra


                                Such Wells can be coaxed back to life by sacrifice, offering a path of least resistance for infernalist cults
                                who would otherwise have to go through the laborious process of creating and consecrating their own
                                ritual ground. The Order of Moloch makes a point to complete the destruction of any moribund Wells
                                that they encounter and cannot claim.
                                They extract any human remains for their own ritual uses, remove
                                or efface any inscription containing a genuine Name of power, scour whatever remains in fire and water
                                and, if pragmatic, implode the physical bore of the Well itself before sealing any remaining aperture with
                                wards of a particularly lethal and unforgiving nature.
                                Even so, most of these “lesser” Wells are only a few hundred years old. Truly ancient lost Wells are prizes
                                worth fighting and killing for, regardless of circumstances. The First Well, the Great Well of Ashur the
                                Fallen, has been the unholy grail of the Baali since the bloodline’s diaspora. Any living memory of the
                                city’s physical location was lost with Nergal and Moloch, though many believe it lays in the high plateaus
                                of Anatolia or the highlands of what is now northern Iraq. The Mouth of Hell is the mobile pit-hold of
                                the ship the Dark Magister, consecrated with artifacts taken from the depths of Chorazin by the Anazeali
                                priestess Arishat, and has been missing for centuries. It is only recently that advanced underwater salvage
                                technology has made finding the wreck of the ship possible. What remains of the Dark Magister lies in
                                multiple pieces on the bottom of the Caribbean Sea near the Cayman Islands, with no lingering psychic
                                trace of the Well among its physical wreckage
                                .

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