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  • Vendrin
    started a topic Details on Prospero

    Details on Prospero

    Hello,
    After reading Beckett's Jyhad Diary I am wondering if there is any more cannon info on Prospero. Haven't found anything on google.

    Thanks!

  • Zorin001
    replied
    I was getting confused myself, as I knew Sahar-Hannibal had been mentioned further up the thread. Tanitbaal makes more sense I think.

    Leave a comment:


  • blackshade
    replied
    Originally posted by Zorin001 View Post
    Good find there Undead Rabbit, I'd say the circumstantial evidence adds up To it being Tanit-baal

    He is saying its Sahar-Hannibaal not Tanitbaal- Sahar. I know the names are similair
    Last edited by blackshade; 03-17-2019, 07:45 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Gentleman Gamer
    replied
    These kinds of deep dive threads make works as detailed as Beckett's Jyhad Diary worth writing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zorin001
    replied
    Good find there Undead Rabbit, I'd say the circumstantial evidence adds up To it being Tanit-baal

    Leave a comment:


  • Undead rabbit
    replied
    Even more, there are good reasons for the Dominion of the Order of Moloch to be at the Caymans Islands.

    From Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra


    Such Wells can be coaxed back to life by sacrifice, offering a path of least resistance for infernalist cults
    who would otherwise have to go through the laborious process of creating and consecrating their own
    ritual ground. The Order of Moloch makes a point to complete the destruction of any moribund Wells
    that they encounter and cannot claim.
    They extract any human remains for their own ritual uses, remove
    or efface any inscription containing a genuine Name of power, scour whatever remains in fire and water
    and, if pragmatic, implode the physical bore of the Well itself before sealing any remaining aperture with
    wards of a particularly lethal and unforgiving nature.
    Even so, most of these “lesser” Wells are only a few hundred years old. Truly ancient lost Wells are prizes
    worth fighting and killing for, regardless of circumstances. The First Well, the Great Well of Ashur the
    Fallen, has been the unholy grail of the Baali since the bloodline’s diaspora. Any living memory of the
    city’s physical location was lost with Nergal and Moloch, though many believe it lays in the high plateaus
    of Anatolia or the highlands of what is now northern Iraq. The Mouth of Hell is the mobile pit-hold of
    the ship the Dark Magister, consecrated with artifacts taken from the depths of Chorazin by the Anazeali
    priestess Arishat, and has been missing for centuries. It is only recently that advanced underwater salvage
    technology has made finding the wreck of the ship possible. What remains of the Dark Magister lies in
    multiple pieces on the bottom of the Caribbean Sea near the Cayman Islands, with no lingering psychic
    trace of the Well among its physical wreckage
    .

    Leave a comment:


  • Undead rabbit
    replied
    Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
    Sahar is, or was, supposedly bound to Enoch as a prisoner of the Black Hand. Prospero has presumably held dominion over the Caymans for long enough to become a notable power. It is reasonable to believe Sahar escaped Enoch before it's destruction - but that was probably too recent for him to establish himself in the Caymans.

    When did he get out of Enoch?

    As for V20 Enoch is still standing, so he didn't escaped Enoch, he was just relased by Izhim. Besides he became the lord of the Caymans in "recent" times.


    He became sole owner of his tropical islands in the nights before it became a hotspot for wealthy kine, supposedly due to his vast cache of pirate treasure and a herd formed from generations of investment bankers.

    The first bank in the Cayman isle opened in 1953. So his take-over must have been recent.

    And elder as powerful as him, with allies like Elimelech, Djuah, Izhim Ur-Bhaal, the Amenti, the Nagaraja, the Capuchin, the Itarajan,the Old Clan Tzimisce, the Liches and so on surely will not have many problems at claiming a dominion like the Caymans Islands (and from who? The Serpents of Lighs? Some Lasombra? A couple of Brujah pirates? In the Carribeans there are only two vampires whose generation is lower than seventh, and none is older than Sahar)
    Last edited by Undead rabbit; 03-15-2019, 06:50 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saga
    replied
    Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
    Khay'Tall had no knowledge of thaumaturgy and didn't knew anything about the Baali, infernalism and so on; He had quarrels with the Setites, but not with his "extended family"; besides Sarassine killed him (as of Costantinople by Night).

    For Prospero it might be wiser to look for an old thaumaturge with a knack for diabolism,

    who probably came from a Caananite or post-Caananite culture

    BJD p 438




    with great knowledge about occultism and indo-persian mysticism (which could mean we are not looking for a western thaumaturge, but for a Dur An Ki master)





    who knew of the secret well of Damascus and its destiny, and with deep knowledge of the Baali and their inner workings



    who has been alive for more than 2000 years and with big problems with his family and the setites.





    who is suspected to be the member of some secret society





    Maybe we are just looking at the wrong secret society.

    V20 (and I suspect V5 also) put quite the effort in salvaging the Black Hand and giving more scope and focus to the Baali. Even more, a lot of hidden plots of the World of Darkness are the subject of the New Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra which shed a new light about them (the identity of the Capuchin, Lazarus game, the origin of the Baali and so on...).

    Just think about the new focus Izhim Ur-Bhaal has been given, or the re-established connections between Ur-Shulgi and The Unnamed Baali.
    Even more a lot of characters in the new Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra either are old characters whose secrets have been explained in that book (Elimelech as Izahia, the Capuchin as Lazarus/Japeth/Byzar), either are new characters who had quite the spotlight recently (Tick Tock Man).

    Given that the author of Prospero's chapter, Myranda, has quite the love for Baali and infernalism, and since she was one of the writers of guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra (and the author of some great books like Road of Sins) and given that her signature says "Moloch PR" I dare say that's the direction we should look at.

    Dawkins said one of you "was on the money". And one of you suggested Tanitbaal-Sahar.

    So I can bet easily that this is the Character sheet of Prospero.


    Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra, p.225




    Given the fact that the Order of Moloch and Old Clan Tzimisce are both members of the Tal'Mahe'Ra, that would explain why, of all places, Lambach Ruthven would search haven in Prospero's Sanctum.

    Which by the way sheda new light also on the whole "Lambach is Lord Ruthven " theory.
    Lord Ruthven feud with Yorak, who had dealings with Kupala (a mighty demon) and who was the undisputed master and promoter of vicissitude, might be explained also in light of the Tal'Mahe'ra ideas about infernalism and vicissitude.
    Seems ver convincing. My money is in Tanithbaal-Sahar, except for one thing. Of he was Sultan in Ankara, and Camilla was Prince of Rome in V20DA, how did he failed to feel his lover across the Mediterranean as Sultan of Ankara? Let's say Camilla wasn't able to do so. How in the bloody hell didn't Tanith felt him in Ankara (since he was being searched by sorcerous means too)?!?!

    - Saga
    Last edited by Saga; 03-16-2019, 03:42 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Grumpy RPG Reviews
    replied
    Sahar is, or was, supposedly bound to Enoch as a prisoner of the Black Hand. Prospero has presumably held dominion over the Caymans for long enough to become a notable power. It is reasonable to believe Sahar escaped Enoch before it's destruction - but that was probably too recent for him to establish himself in the Caymans.

    When did he get out of Enoch?

    Leave a comment:


  • Undead rabbit
    replied
    Here his story.

    Background: Sahar-Hanibaal was born in the years of
    Carthage’s slow and painful decline
    , the youngest son of a
    humble family with far too many mouths to feed as it stood.
    Fortunately, in those days, there were solutions to such difficulties:
    the wealthy and powerful were always at pains to keep
    a healthy offering to the gods at hand, and were becoming
    more and more loath to offer up their own children when
    another’s offspring would suffice just as well. With his sleek
    black hair, huge dark eyes, dimpled cheeks, and quick, clever
    hands, he fetched a handsome price on the auction block.
    In this new house, he was never hungry or cold. He was
    kept well-fed and well-dressed, in preparation for the day
    when his throat would be cut over the sacrificial bowl. That
    day never came. He grew from well-fattened childhood into
    gawky adolescence and slender young adulthood, going the
    temple for more than instruction in the proper methods of
    worship, the songs of praise, and the means of sacrifice. Even
    so, it was there, in Tanit’s house among the temples, that he
    met his fate. What the goddess’ philosopher-childe saw him as
    he knelt singing the words of her glory, he still does not entirely
    understand and likely never will. Still, when Tanitbaal-Sahar
    laid eyes upon him, it was then that he became not a sacrifice

    in waiting, but a sacrifice in truth. His adopted parents were
    first astonished, and then greatly pleased, when such a highborn
    lord of the city requested the use of him for a companion
    and, within days, he was ensconced in the modest household
    of his new patron, serving as his scribe and assistant.
    Far-traveled, intellectually questing, and troublesomely
    unorthodox, Tanitbaal-Sahar was deep in the throes of
    creation, writing not only a series of travelogues but
    also laying out the fundamental tenets of what would
    become the Via Desideratio. Sahar-Hanibaal became the
    first whetstone against which he honed the knife of his
    doctrine. His elders, with his grandsire Moloch among
    them, vehemently disagreed with Tanitbaal-Sahar and
    his philosophies, and when Tanitbaal-Sahar persisted,
    punishment fell on the head of Sahar-Hanibaal
    . When
    Sahar-Hanibaal awoke in the house of Tanit, the taste of
    his sire’s blood still clung to his tongue.
    The night of his painful death and unplanned Embrace
    was the last he ever saw his sire. Tanitbaal-Sahar fled
    Carthage, taking nothing with him but the bare necessities
    of survival and his most current writings. He ran to Rome
    and took shelter there under the protection of its Prince,
    out of Moloch’s reach. Sahar-Hanibaal spent the first surreal
    and disorienting nights of his unlife under the care of his
    grandsire, Tanit, who chose to stand between him and the
    wrath of Moloch.
    Beneath the aegis of Tanit’s protection,
    he learned the first lessons of what he had become at her
    knee, the truth that had hidden beneath shadows and
    praise-songs, and came at last to understand the purpose
    his life — rootless, waiting — had lacked. When Tanit left
    Carthage for Tyre, Sahar-Hanibaal followed to repay the
    debt he owed his grandsire for sparing his existence. He
    served as her left hand for centuries, mastering the arts of
    warfare to enforce her primacy as eldest when Carthage fell.
    War followed with the Followers of Set,
    the Assamites,
    and his own kin.
    When Azaneal assumed the title of Shaitan,
    Tanit received Azaneal’s ambassadors at her hidden court,
    listened to what they had to say, and quietly prepared to
    abandon Tyre as she had abandoned Carthage before it.
    Tanit fell into torpor due to an ambush, leaving the reins
    of leadership in the hands of her grandchilde.
    them since. He rallied the survivors of Azaneal’s first attack
    cast aside the ages-old prohibition in the Via Hyron
    against the practice of blood sorcery. After a century of
    treachery and bloodshed, Chorazin fell and Azaneal fell
    with it. Sahar-Hanibaal sang Tyre’s Well of Sacrifice to
    sleep, and sought sanctuary in the court of a fellow scholar
    in the far north with what remained of his own people.
    In the far north, among their reclusive cousins of the Old
    Clan Tzimisce, the Molochim found peace and safety for
    the first time in centuries.
    It could not, of course, last. Sahar-Hanibaal had chosen
    a duty for himself; Azaneal might be gone, but the idiot
    spawn of Nergal would keep trying their luck until one
    of them broke the world. There were more than enough
    untenanted, untended Wells lying in forgotten corners of
    the world, and the Children of the Outer Dark, forever
    restless, were growing even more so.
    The Order of Moloch
    came forth from the mountain fastness of their allies to
    hunt their infernalist kinsmen again and found that, while
    the world changed, some things never did. The Well of
    Carthage may be nothing more than rubble, but something
    stirs there and casts the smoke of burning innocents into
    the night sky again after thousands of years. The ancient
    city of the First Tribe, lost for even longer, has been
    found by forces inimical to the Molochim mission, the
    Maw of the Sleepers alive and gestating darkness greater
    than even Nergal in its depths. The choice to ally with
    the Tal’Mahe’Ra, made in cold deliberation and in full
    knowledge of the price of failure, has thankfully thus far
    proven a fruitful one, even if the cost of attaining it was
    painfully, personally high. The world may yet have a future,
    and Sahar-Hanibaal some hope of seeing it come to pass."



    And the Black Hand really really hates the Theophidians bastards.

    Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra p.33

    Followers of Set
    The Followers of Set seem like an obvious addition to
    the Sect, as their paradigm does not deviate much from
    the Tal’Mahe’Ra veneration of the Clan sires. However,
    the Sect has been engaged in war with the Setites since
    the earliest nights of its history.
    Originally stemming from
    competition over Enoch, millennia ago, later conflicts rose
    from the Serpents proving adept at manipulating both the
    Tal’Mahe’Ra and the Assamites into conflict.
    p.40


    Interestingly, the most closely aligned
    faction of Kindred to the Tal’Mahe’Ra in this regard are
    the Followers of Set. However, mentioning this to a dominion
    is grounds for impalement from anus to mouth as
    an object lesson in keeping one’s imagination from roving

    Leave a comment:


  • Undead rabbit
    replied
    Khay'Tall had no knowledge of thaumaturgy and didn't knew anything about the Baali, infernalism and so on; He had quarrels with the Setites, but not with his "extended family"; besides Sarassine killed him (as of Costantinople by Night).

    For Prospero it might be wiser to look for an old thaumaturge with a knack for diabolism,

    who probably came from a Caananite or post-Caananite culture

    BJD p 438
    Prospero: Jacinth, please send a security team to remove the body
    bag’s contents down to the guest quarters. Yes, leave him in the
    bag for now. Thank you. Raoul, I’m going to need the work case
    off the desk in my downstairs study and if you’d be so good as to
    put together a hospitality package and bring both up here to the
    sitting room, that would be excellent. Thank you.
    [PAUSE]
    Astarte’s suppurating teats, Beckett, didn’t I warn you to stay
    out of Constantinople?


    with great knowledge about occultism and indo-persian mysticism (which could mean we are not looking for a western thaumaturge, but for a Dur An Ki master)

    Prospero: Because if Ahura and Angra are one being, there must be
    two others to craft the balance of a trinity — Amesha Spenta and
    Azhi Dahaka. And of those two, only one was a serpent. A dragon.
    Was there a pit already


    who knew of the secret well of Damascus and its destiny, and with deep knowledge of the Baali and their inner workings
    Prospero: Good. Mary the Black disappears from what I know of infernalist
    history after a certain point — she murdered Michael,
    then fled. The last known sighting of her was in Damascus just
    before the Ashirra dropped the hammer on the Baali nest lairing
    there

    who has been alive for more than 2000 years and with big problems with his family and the setites.


    Speaking strictly as the author of that section, I can assure you that Prospero is not an author insert. He has merely chosen to be pseudononymous for the last two thousand years or so because his extended family hates him and wants him to die. A lot. Not to mention all the Theophidian fundamentalists. Bastards never give up.

    who is suspected to be the member of some secret society

    Unsubstantiated rumors place Prospero as a Baali, a Salubri, or one of
    the Inconnu
    . His real name is a closely-guarded secret.
    On good authority I’m told Prospero is an agent of the Inconnu. Somehow he
    protects among the most hunted and reviled Cainites. Look at how he’s taken
    Ruthven under his wing. And you. -L
    Maybe we are just looking at the wrong secret society.

    V20 (and I suspect V5 also) put quite the effort in salvaging the Black Hand and giving more scope and focus to the Baali. Even more, a lot of hidden plots of the World of Darkness are the subject of the New Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra which shed a new light about them (the identity of the Capuchin, Lazarus game, the origin of the Baali and so on...).

    Just think about the new focus Izhim Ur-Bhaal has been given, or the re-established connections between Ur-Shulgi and The Unnamed Baali.
    Even more a lot of characters in the new Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra either are old characters whose secrets have been explained in that book (Elimelech as Izahia, the Capuchin as Lazarus/Japeth/Byzar), either are new characters who had quite the spotlight recently (Tick Tock Man).

    Given that the author of Prospero's chapter, Myranda, has quite the love for Baali and infernalism, and since she was one of the writers of guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra (and the author of some great books like Road of Sins) and given that her signature says "Moloch PR" I dare say that's the direction we should look at.

    Dawkins said one of you "was on the money". And one of you suggested Tanitbaal-Sahar.

    So I can bet easily that this is the Character sheet of Prospero.


    Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra, p.225

    Sahar-Hanibaal,
    Dominion of the Order of Moloch
    Clan: Baali
    Sire: Tanitbaal-Sahar


    Nature: Caretaker
    Demeanor: Survivor
    Generation: Seventh
    Embrace: 195 B.C.E.

    Apparent Age: Early 20s

    Physical: Strength 6, Dexterity 6, Stamina 6
    Social: Charisma 6, Manipulation 6, Appearance 6
    Mental: Intelligence 6, Perception 6, Wits 6

    Talents: Alertness 5, Awareness 6 (external psychic influences), Brawl 6 (fighting dirty), Empathy 6, Expression 6, Intimidation 4, Leadership 5, Subterfuge 5

    Skills: Craft 5 (musical instruments), Etiquette 6 (diplomacy), Melee 6, Performance 6 (music) Knowledges: Academics 6, Computer 2, Investigation 5, Medicine 6, Occult 6 (infernalism and
    infernalists)
    , Politics 5, Science 6 (astronomy; mathematics)

    Disciplines: Auspex 6, Daimoinon 6, Celerity 3, Fortitude 5, Obfuscate 6, Presence 3, Dur-an-Ki 6 (Music of the Spheres 5, Spirit Manipulation 5, Whispers of the Heavens 4)

    Backgrounds: Allies 6 (the Order of Moloch in its entirety), Generation 5, Herd 3, Resources 3, Retainers 6 (bound spirits), Black Hand Membership 3, Title 3 (Dominion of the Order of Moloch)

    Virtues: Conviction 5, Courage 5, Instinct 2
    Morality: Path of the Hive 9
    Willpower: 9

    Given the fact that the Order of Moloch and Old Clan Tzimisce are both members of the Tal'Mahe'Ra, that would explain why, of all places, Lambach Ruthven would search haven in Prospero's Sanctum.

    Which by the way sheda new light also on the whole "Lambach is Lord Ruthven " theory.
    Lord Ruthven feud with Yorak, who had dealings with Kupala (a mighty demon) and who was the undisputed master and promoter of vicissitude, might be explained also in light of the Tal'Mahe'ra ideas about infernalism and vicissitude.
    Last edited by Undead rabbit; 03-15-2019, 10:16 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • False Epiphany
    replied
    Tanitbaal-Sahar is known to have masqueraded as a Brujah. Methinks "Ameirin" is just another pseudonym. There's always a deeper layer to the Jyhad...

    There's a fun case to be made for him being Khay'tall too, though. Both Kindred make great choices for the "real" Prospero.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saga
    replied
    Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
    In the wiki itself there's some speculation on Prospero being the Sultan Ameirin of Ankara, a Brujah infernalist mentioned in Tome of Secrets - or at least that Beckett might believe it so. How much weight does one put on it and what could it mean for a chronicle, i would say is pretty up for grabs.
    Prospero IS Ameirin. Of that there is no doubt.

    - Saga

    Leave a comment:


  • Baaldam
    replied
    In the wiki itself there's some speculation on Prospero being the Sultan Ameirin of Ankara, a Brujah infernalist mentioned in Tome of Secrets - or at least that Beckett might believe it so. How much weight does one put on it and what could it mean for a chronicle, i would say is pretty up for grabs.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zorin001
    replied
    Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

    Good catch. If Prospero is Khay'tall, then I wonder if he is aware of the return of the Trinity?
    It would make thematic sense considering the chapter we meet him in is the one dealing with Constantinople.

    However I err towards Tanitbaal due to the fact he's using some sort of demonic sorcery to heal Beckett's wounds. Saying that he doesn't match the physical description of either Taanitbaal or Khay'tall but that wouldn't be a problem for a Cainite of sufficiently advanced Viccisitude.

    Leave a comment:

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