Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What would happen to a Giovanni Caitiff?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • What would happen to a Giovanni Caitiff?

    This isn’t for the purpose of character creation, it’s simply to ponder a lore question and to get a better understanding of the game’s world as well as it’s clans.

    The Giovanni as I have read are all members of one giant, perverse, and sadistic incestuous family, as is shown plainly through their use of the Proxy Kiss and the Embrace.

    Members of the family are hand-picked and groomed over many years by their potential sires, spending many years as ghouls before they are even embraced.

    Now, supposing that one of those selected after their embrace, failed to take on many of the traits of their clan, such as the clan weakness or natural bend towards necromancy, what would happen to such a freshly turned Kindred?

    Would they be thrown out into the streets left to fend for themselves, executed and disposed of, on the spot by their Sire, as to not have their name smeared, or would the clan ignore it and continue to treat them as one of the clan, albeit a peculiar one?

    I’m rather curious due to how closely and perversely family seems to tie into the nature of Clan Giovanni.

  • #2
    I figure they would be destroyed on the spot. There can't be a problem if you destroy it. No one would know. They obviously wouldn't talk about it either.

    Comment


    • #3
      That depends on what is a Caitiff in your game. Do you become a Caitiff if your sire embraces you and immediately bails? In that case you go the way of all the other Caitiff - angry and confused about the whole vampire deal. Are Caitiff an abberation of the Embrace? Then nothing happens. You go about being Giovanni and everyone thinks you are not mystically gifted and a bit slow at picking up disciplines. Not having a painful bite is certainly a big sign that something's wrong with you, but of all the clans Giovanni are the ones who definitely know that clan weaknesses can change. As far as anyone knows - recessive Cappadocian genes rose up in you and that's that. Or maybe you are just shy and never feed in front of the others, vampires are quirky like that. The whole vampire community is a big collection of unique quirky eccentric snowflakes.

      Your Sire, if they know and care, has two ways to go:
      1. Pretend super hard that you are a real boy. Siring a Caitiff is generally seen as dishonorable, so pretending that everything is fine is in Sire's best interests.
      2. Send you on a suicide mission. Killing you personally will make the Sire look wasteful - vampies are a precious comodity. Having you kill yourself will make the Sire look like a fuckup, but it's better than all the other options.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by kewlimp View Post
        I figure they would be destroyed on the spot. There can't be a problem if you destroy it. No one would know. They obviously wouldn't talk about it either.
        Except every relative of the vampire to be, every close relative of the sire, the local level patriarch who allowed the siring... Aside from all those people - no one.

        Comment


        • #5
          By definition, caitiff are vampires who don't share identifiable traits with any particular clan or bloodline. So I suppose a 'Giovanni' caitiff would receive the same treatment as any other caitiff. Although the Giovanni would probably be all the more interested in bringing about their final death if they knew the caitiff was sired by one of their own.

          Don't forget, you're talking about a bloodline who destroyed most of their own clan in order to seize power for themselves. They're nearly as protective with their own secrets as the Tremere are. And like you said, they have a very strict grooming process when it comes to embracing. The caitiff would probably be viewed as years and years of wasted effort on their part.
          Last edited by Nyrufa; 11-14-2017, 01:31 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
            Except every relative of the vampire to be, every close relative of the sire, the local level patriarch who allowed the siring... Aside from all those people - no one.
            I was speaking more in general vampire society. it could be perceived as a weakness and the Giovanni like all other kindred would hate to look like they have weakness. A Giovanni who can't Giovanni properly could be(not always) could be seen as a weakness to the clan.

            Comment


            • #7
              Yes, but the other thing is there also a family, albeit a sick and sadistic one. Not to mention, if we're looking at Caitiffs as a quirk of the Embrace or a Fluke, considering how specific and almost imperceivable the Giovanni Curse is, how would they know? I mean, for all many of them could suspect, he might simply be dumb and slow to learn Necromancy, despite it being the clan's core discipline.

              It's not beyond the realm of possibilities that the younger Giovanni, his sire included, might never realize just what he is. It would be the clan elders that would be of more concern. Would they kill him themselves, or would they keep him around as a joke at his sire's expense?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by PunkManiak View Post
                Yes, but the other thing is there also a family, albeit a sick and sadistic one. Not to mention, if we're looking at Caitiffs as a quirk of the Embrace or a Fluke, considering how specific and almost imperceivable the Giovanni Curse is, how would they know? I mean, for all many of them could suspect, he might simply be dumb and slow to learn Necromancy, despite it being the clan's core discipline.

                It's not beyond the realm of possibilities that the younger Giovanni, his sire included, might never realize just what he is. It would be the clan elders that would be of more concern. Would they kill him themselves, or would they keep him around as a joke at his sire's expense?


                A family who is heavily inspired by the mafia, remember that. An exposed caitiff might be seen as a bastard child. A Giovanni only in the most technical sense, but considered illegitimate by the rest of the family.

                As for learning disciplines, I've asked around some veteran players (I'm new to cWoD) and many of them seem to agree that when it comes to learning disciplines, caitiff are the exception to the rule. Most vampires do require a mentor and years of study to learn the more elusive disciplines like Thaumaturgy, Vicissitude, Necromancy and the like.

                Caitiff, however, do not. They have a knack for developing such powers spontaneously without any prior knowledge or training. It's like an epiphany happens in their mind and suddenly they know what to do. That's one reason why they are so feared in vampire society, who's clans take every opportunity to beat them down when one shows up.

                And it's one reason why a lot of newbie players like to create one, seeing it as an easy excuse to grab whatever disciplines they want during character creation.
                Last edited by Nyrufa; 11-14-2017, 01:54 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post



                  A family who is heavily inspired by the mafia, remember that. An exposed caitiff might be seen as a bastard child. A Giovanni only in the most technical sense, but considered illegitimate by the rest of the family.

                  As for learning disciplines, I've asked around some veteran players (I'm new to cWoD) and many of them seem to agree that when it comes to learning disciplines, caitiff are the exception to the rule. Most vampires do require a mentor and years of study to learn the more elusive disciplines like Thaumaturgy, Vicissitude, Necromancy and the like.

                  Caitiff, however, do not. They have a knack for developing such powers spontaneously without any prior knowledge or training. It's like an epiphany happens in their mind and suddenly they know what to do. That's one reason why they are so feared in vampire society. And it's one reason why a lot of newbie players like to create one, seeing it as an easy excuse to grab whatever disciplines they want during character creation.
                  Maybe I misread the books but I don't remember reading that catiff can just "develop" discplines out of the blue especially not the magical ones because you would be unable to perform a ritual without knowing how to do it. Things like protean maybe but not Thaum or necro and vicissitude is a completely matter on its own.I'll go back and reread the section on catiffs but I really don't remember that.

                  As a note for the meta about that, I don't know many STs who allow clan specific discplines for catiffs.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by kewlimp View Post

                    Maybe I misread the books but I don't remember reading that catiff can just "develop" discplines out of the blue especially not the magical ones because you would be unable to perform a ritual without knowing how to do it. Things like protean maybe but not Thaum or necro and vicissitude is a completely matter on its own.I'll go back and reread the section on catiffs but I really don't remember that.

                    As a note for the meta about that, I don't know many STs who allow clan specific discplines for catiffs.

                    There are several players who make guide videos to Masquerade on youtube who have done discussions on the caitiff. When I brought the subject up to them, they mostly agreed that caitiff are the exception to all the rules. And when you think about the in game lore, it makes sense for why that would be so. There's a prophecy which tells that caitiff will become the dominant power in kindred society. Maybe this is how they do it, by stealing the powers of all the other clans.

                    And one little tidbit I like to argue is that if these disciplines absolutely need a mentor to teach them, then who taught it to the clan in the first place? Somebody had to have taken the first steps and developed these powers through experimentation. And if it can be done once, it can be done again.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                      The caitiff would probably be viewed as years and years of wasted effort on their part.
                      Why? Caitiffs can still learn Necromancy and/or be useful.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
                        Why? Caitiffs can still learn Necromancy and/or be useful.

                        So can Ghouls.

                        Doesn't mean they get any degree of respect, now do they?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                          There are several players who make guide videos to Masquerade on youtube who have done discussions on the caitiff. When I brought the subject up to them, they mostly agreed that caitiff are the exception to all the rules. And when you think about the in game lore, it makes sense for why that would be so. There's a prophecy which tells that caitiff will become the dominant power in kindred society. Maybe this is how they do it, by stealing the powers of all the other clans.

                          And one little tidbit I like to argue is that if these disciplines absolutely need a mentor to teach them, then who taught it to the clan in the first place? Somebody had to have taken the first steps and developed these powers through experimentation. And if it can be done once, it can be done again.
                          Those three specifically are different. Two of them being magical practices. Thaum and Necro. Catiffs don't need discplines to come to power. A great leader is just a great leader. For physical discplines, I agree no tutor or mentor is required. Things like celerity, potence, and fortitude are very common. Clan specific though. Protean I would imagine they would have to see it once to know its possible. Same for presence and dominate. using obtenbration, how would a catiff know you can reach into the Abyss and control it. If not, its like rebuilding a car engine without knowing anything about how its put together, not just driving the car down the street.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by kewlimp View Post

                            Those three specifically are different. Two of them being magical practices. Thaum and Necro. Catiffs don't need discplines to come to power. A great leader is just a great leader. For physical discplines, I agree no tutor or mentor is required. Things like celerity, potence, and fortitude are very common. Clan specific though. Protean I would imagine they would have to see it once to know its possible. Same for presence and dominate. using obtenbration, how would a catiff know you can reach into the Abyss and control it. If not, its like rebuilding a car engine without knowing anything about how its put together, not just driving the car down the street.

                            Well, the prince of Cairo is a caitiff with access to 8 different disciplines, including Auspex, Obfuscate, Dominate, Presence, and even Quietus.

                            That's a pretty impressive list of mentors for a clanless mongrel to have studied under, wouldn't you say?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by PunkManiak View Post
                              Members of the family are hand-picked and groomed over many years by their potential sires, spending many years as ghouls before they are even embraced.
                              The more usual back-story for a Giovanni involves multiple "sires".

                              1. There is an established Giovanni, usually at least an Ancilla if not an Anzione (elder) of the clan, who takes an interest in you and thinks you would make a good addition to the clan. This will usually be a family member, such as one of your ancestors. Often you will have already received the proxy kiss from this mentor, with a clan elder's permission. (And, no, the Domitor can't usually give themselves permission.) The Domitor recommends to a superior, almost always a proper Anzione or three, that the Domitor has found a family ghoul who would make a good vampire.

                              2. Permission to have this ghoul embraced is not automatic. Venice doesn't like to see individual vampires accrue too much personal power, or build up a private brood of fledglings... can't think why... so they usually take the ghoul and have a different sire actually do the deed. The sire is often a rival or, at the very least, indifferent to the Domitor, to prevent either from building a power-base. This actual Sire teaches the fledgling the basics of being a vampire, clan disciplines, etc.

                              3. Lastly, and this mostly implied, not RAW, a neo-nate Giovanni is likely to serve under a third vampire, the local Don, who is often neither the Domitor, nor the actual Sire. The Don serves some of the functions of the Prince or Primogen in Camarilla society, or the Pack Priest in Sabbat culture. He coordinates local Giovanni, and ghouls, in purely local activities and handles external relations with Venice. The Don has a good bit of influence on the early, formative experiences of a Giovanni vampire. If the local Don sees pinstripe businesses as a good route to power, he will "suggest" the young Giovanni accrue skills useful in that arena; if the Don is more focused on, say, Necromantic goals, he may insist the fledgling be helpful with that. That said, every coterie of Giovanni has need for varied skill-sets, so it's not so much forcing fledglings to march in lock-step, as making certain they can operate in the favored environment.

                              This all boils down to the fact that Clan Giovanni has multiple gate-keepers making sure that embracees have the right initial mind-set, are properly instructed, and are thoroughly steeped in clan culture. So, it seems likely that they have fewer "failed embrace" type Caitiff than other clans. If a Giovanni vampire were to embrace even a promising mortal without following the proper procedures, it would be seen as a sign of disrespect at best, and an indicator that someone has decided to emulate Augustus Giovanni a bit too completely. The sire and child would both likely be destroyed.

                              If you're thinking, "well, maybe a Giovanni sires a random childe, then disappears in a drive-by embrace"... Okay, except the clan has wraithly spies keeping an eye out for such things. There are many things Giovanni can get away with, but keeping secrets from their family is not usually one of them. At least not in the long term.

                              Remember, it's a weird quirk of the system that the first dot of disciplines cost 10xp whether it is in-clan or out. It's not like being a Caitiff makes you a complete idiot when trained in a discipline. So, a Caitiff would learn the first dots of Dominate, Potence, and Necromancy at the same rate as any other vampire, Giovanni or otherwise. Even at the second dot, the Caitiff only pays 1 extra xp to learn the level. It seems unlikely anyone would notice the difference. After that, well, there are lots of Giovanni neo-nates who don't reach level three in one or more clan disciplines.

                              I doubt anyone would notice, besides the feeding thing. Except for the occasional cousin trying to learn how the new guy feeds so easily, it probably wouldn't be a problem. Several other clans have merits and point builds, that reduce or shift their clan weakness, like a Nosferatu taking Rugged Bad Looks or several clans just buying a very high willpower. If the Caitiff took a flaw like "Clan Flaw", or "Infectious Bite", it's conceivable even the Caitiff themselves wouldn't realize what they are.

                              Besides, Clan Giovanni doesn't automatically dislike Caitiff in general. If I recall, one of the clan-books characterized the clan's view of Caitiff as, "good enough for dock work." As long as a Caitiff (with or without Giovanni heritage) proves useful, the clan would keep them around.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X