Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

V20 Potence rules

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • V20 Potence rules

    I'm just curious how many people use the new V20 Potence rules, where you have to spend blood to get it to work like it used to, as opposed to it being full-power all the time like before. And for those that don't use the new rules, do you still use the new Celerity rules, or do you keep it all the old way?

  • #2
    Well, I just bought V20, and since it's the first and (so far) only book for cWoD that I have, I suppose I'll be using the current V20 rules.

    Comment


    • #3
      I find the rules for potence-celerity -fortitude in V20 Dark ages to be the best iteration they ever had tbh.
      Potence always on was a bit too good so spending a blood for a turn of auto successes ( especially when you reach levels 3-5) is a fair trade off

      Comment


      • #4
        Old Potence was really quite out of balance, especially if you consider that Fortitude didn't grant automatic soaks; Celerity was out of balance too, only usable through blood expense despite it being a physical discipline and granting up to 6 actions in a round at the expense of one blood point - honestly, not even werewolves were THAT overpowered.

        The new rules in V20 balance them better, leaving Potence still strong even if nerfed and making Celerity not only more expensive to use when it comes to extra actions (and basically adopting the Werewolf rule 1 point = +1 action) but also giving it a passive effect to make it worth your while even when you don't have blood to spend. As far as I'm concerned, V20 is just how these disciplines should always have been.
        Last edited by Maris Streck; 11-21-2017, 07:08 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Indeed V20 rules are a massive improvements, and I think V20 Dark Ages is even better in that therm, Fortitude for example is finally on pair with the other two physical disciplines.

          Comment


          • #6
            How's handled DAV20 Fortitude?

            Comment


            • #7
              OK thanks for your responses guys! (I'm still interested in hearing other's as well.) But I am curious what exactly you mean by 'out of balance'? Imbalanced with what exactly? Vampires without physical disciplines? I get it about Fortitude, so why not just make it stronger instead of the others weaker? Vampires are powerful creatures, why can't they be as powerful as before? I'm just trying to understand here in case I'm missing something.

              Comment


              • #8
                The Potence disproportion was mainly obvious if compared to Fortitude: a Potence 5 striking a Fortitude 5 means that the defending vampire gets an average of 2-3 damages, so the defender would be clearly at disadvantage even with the same number of allocated points; now it's dice vs dice and it's equal. You still can convert Potence in automatic successes, but the blood point you have to invest is a blood point you can't use it for more durable uses (like boosting stats or healing), so it comes out a bit more balanced overall.

                Giving automatic successes for each Fortitude dot means that you can't simply hurt the vampire anymore without Potence. Strong fire is 3 levels of aggravated each round, so with a mid-leveled discipline you can just walk in every conflagration you find on Earth without taking damage (ofc, you still have the Courage rolls but it's no damage even if you frenzy); Fortitude 5 would be enough to soak hellfire and every one but the most lucky of firearms attacks. Reworking Fortitude this way would have required to also rework how other kind of damages are applied, changing this was just more efficient I think.
                Anyway that's really a question for the devs =P

                Celerity was OP as shit. I mean, up to 6 attacks at full dice pool with 1 blood point? It roughly meant "insta kill" and the low cost would have allowed you to mantain it as long as you wanted. It was honestly too good, especially because it was a multiplier for every other combat discipline (quietus, potence, protean, vicissitude...) that split the world between celerity-owning warriors and not. It was even a lot better of what werewolves could do and they are supposed to be the war machines of the WoD.

                Now it can be just as powerful but a lot more expensive, so you can't keep stomping 5 enemies at round for a whole scene.
                Last edited by Maris Streck; 11-22-2017, 04:20 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  An excellent example of how broken Potence was when the automatic successes were free: grappling. Grappling uses Strength instead of Dexterity to attack, uses Strength to maintain the grapple, and using Strength to deal damage. Vampires can also do Aggravated damage with bites in grapples without any powers.

                  If a high Potence vampire in the old rules grapples you, which they'll probably do easily, you die unless you have high Potence as well. Old Celerity didn't have a passive Dexterity boost, getting a high enough roll to avoid the bonus successes from Potence alone would be hard. Fortitude's bonus dice are simply less valuable than automatic successes. The only way to avoid the death-grapple is to avoid combat (even with a lot of non-physical Disciplines the best course of action is to use them to not fight at all).

                  -------

                  Also, the basic improvement on Fortitude in DAV20 is that you can spend blood to turn dice bonuses to successes similarly to how Potence works. It's still a bit behind Potence, but the gap is much smaller.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think celerity and the other physical disciplines in dark ages v20 are the best they've ever done.

                    My one issue is this, if you are taking one and only one action, you should be able to buy auto successes with celerity, there's no reason why you shouldn't as long as you're only taking one action. If you're taking multiple actions then I say stick to rules as written.

                    As an aside, V20 dice pool splitting sucked, you had to use the lowest of all your dice pools for the actions you wanted to take and then divy up that dice pool to assign x number of dice for each action.

                    Dark ages has fixed this to a certain degree but I think the one attack per turn rule is a disappointing fix, especially if you're fighting with two weapons

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Zennis View Post
                      My one issue is this, if you are taking one and only one action, you should be able to buy auto successes with celerity, there's no reason why you shouldn't as long as you're only taking one action. If you're taking multiple actions then I say stick to rules as written.
                      Celerity already has a blood expenditure effect and it's multiple actions. Adding the auto-success would offer too much if compared to the other physicals.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Extra successes for Celerity isn't necessary because its passive bonuses are both defensive and offensive, where Potence and Fortitude are basically one sided on that equation.

                        Having bonus dice on your action regardless of attack or defense, as well as a bonus to Initiative and movement, gives you a very significant tactical advantage even if for some reason you're only taking one action.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

                          Celerity already has a blood expenditure effect and it's multiple actions. Adding the auto-success would offer too much if compared to the other physicals.
                          I disagree, adding successes is already what the other physical disciplines do, spending blood for auto successes is exactly what potence or fortitude do. I dont see how this would be OP

                          Making the celerity blood expenditure option the same as it is for Potence or fortitude would not mean celerity would offer too much if it no longer gives you extra actions bu if you could use it for both at the same time, then I would agree that it would be OP

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                            Extra successes for Celerity isn't necessary because its passive bonuses are both defensive and offensive, where Potence and Fortitude are basically one sided on that equation.

                            Having bonus dice on your action regardless of attack or defense, as well as a bonus to Initiative and movement, gives you a very significant tactical advantage even if for some reason you're only taking one action.
                            Fair enough, you make a good point, I just feel that being able to buy autosuccesses with celerity (just as you can do with potence and fortitude) is less OP in the long run than what celerity used to be, spend one blood and take 2-6 actions in a turn.

                            I agree that celerity sees double the use (thereabouts) as potence and fortitude but then that’s a symptom of a Dex heavy system.

                            I think that the celerity to buy auto-successes was a good way to tone it down back in the day when you could use it to take 2-6 actions.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Zennis View Post
                              Fair enough, you make a good point, I just feel that being able to buy autosuccesses with celerity (just as you can do with potence and fortitude) is less OP in the long run than what celerity used to be, spend one blood and take 2-6 actions in a turn.
                              Oh GAWD NO!
                              Do you understand what 3-5 auto successes mean to an attack? firstly, if they were already hitting, then it's 3-5 bonus dice of damage. If it's contested, the auto successes are very powerful for hitting, especially since there's no passive defence, you need to take actions to defend.

                              At character creation, 3 Celerity would be the only option for combat characters, bringing a big weapon for the damage, and autos from successes to hit.

                              It is making the Dex=King problem with (most systems really) even worse

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X