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  • #16
    Originally posted by Illithid View Post

    Oh GAWD NO!
    Do you understand what 3-5 auto successes mean to an attack? firstly, if they were already hitting, then it's 3-5 bonus dice of damage. If it's contested, the auto successes are very powerful for hitting, especially since there's no passive defence, you need to take actions to defend.

    At character creation, 3 Celerity would be the only option for combat characters, bringing a big weapon for the damage, and autos from successes to hit.

    It is making the Dex=King problem with (most systems really) even worse
    LOL!!!

    You’re opening response was hilarious.

    Ok I see your point. I actually play tested this and it seemed fine for our chronicle (which lasted quite a while and had numerous people using celerity throughout) but maybe that’s because all the PCs in it had celerity...

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    • #17
      The Potence disproportion was mainly obvious if compared to Fortitude
      Ok, I can understand, and if that bothers you then fine. But it doesn't bother me. I can't think of any reason why Fortitude should be balanced with Potence. It would be like if armor had to be balanced with guns, but I'm pretty sure that there are guns that can penetrate any armor. Also, it's a fringe case, like when a Brujah fights a Gangrel. Sure, it happens, but given all the clans and all the combinations of possible confrontations, it just doesn't happen that much, so I don't see why the Fortitude people should have special consideration.

      Giving automatic successes for each Fortitude dot means that you can't simply hurt the vampire anymore without Potence. Strong fire is 3 levels of aggravated each round, so with a mid-leveled discipline you can just walk in every conflagration you find on Earth without taking damage (ofc, you still have the Courage rolls but it's no damage even if you frenzy); Fortitude 5 would be enough to soak hellfire and every one but the most lucky of firearms attacks. Reworking Fortitude this way would have required to also rework how other kind of damages are applied,
      You're right, that makes sense. It's a bad idea. Cool.

      Celerity was OP as shit. I mean, up to 6 attacks at full dice pool with 1 blood point? It roughly meant "insta kill" and the low cost would have allowed you to mantain it as long as you wanted. It was honestly too good, especially because it was a multiplier for every other combat discipline (quietus, potence, protean, vicissitude...) that split the world between celerity-owning warriors and not.
      Again, this just doesn't bother me, I guess because that's the way I've played it for over 20 years. Brujah? Yeah, don't fight them, they're the best at it. Simple as that. Toreador? They don't really use Celerity much, nor even fight, so not a big problem. Assamites? Again, yeah. One shows up, someone dies; that's the way of the world. That's their whole thing. It's what they do. And the 6 attacks thing is only with fairly old and powerful vampires, whom I'd expect to lose to anyway, regardless of what discipline they had at level 5.

      An excellent example of how broken Potence was when the automatic successes were free: grappling. Grappling uses Strength instead of Dexterity to attack, uses Strength to maintain the grapple, and using Strength to deal damage.
      That makes sense, I just haven't seen it come up very much. And really, that's a problem of the way those combat maneuvers are designed. Either you use Strength to attack and make Potence more powerful in some cases, or you use Dex and make Dex more powerful. Seems like clumsy play-balancing to me.

      Anyway, thanks for your input. I just wanted to a more rounded understanding of the issues and you guys helped me with that. (And I'm not closing the conversation if anyone has more to say. I just wanted to say that.)

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Murdoc View Post
        Giving automatic successes for each Fortitude dot means that you can't simply hurt the vampire anymore without Potence. Strong fire is 3 levels of aggravated each round, so with a mid-leveled discipline you can just walk in every conflagration you find on Earth without taking damage (ofc, you still have the Courage rolls but it's no damage even if you frenzy); Fortitude 5 would be enough to soak hellfire and every one but the most lucky of firearms attacks. Reworking Fortitude this way would have required to also rework how other kind of damages are applied,

        You're right, that makes sense. It's a bad idea. Cool.
        Originally posted by Dark Ages
        A character’s Fortitude rating adds to all her Stamina-based dice pools, including her soak rating for bashing and lethal damage. A vampire may use her Fortitude dice as a soak pool against aggravated wounds, which vampires typically have no recourse against. Once per turn, she may spend a blood point to automatically soak her Fortitude in damage, instead of adding it to her Stamina. This can be used to soak aggravated damage as well, but not damage from fire or sunlight.
        - the Auto Soak that they brought in officially, doesn't let you do it for the curses of caine; fire and sunlight.
        - There is no reason to think that a "balancing" of potence and fortitude wouldn't have the same amendment, I suppose in line with "rework how other kind of damages are applied"
        - The reason that people (including myself) argue in favour of potence and fortitude being comparably powered is so they don't feel like they lose out choosing a particular character build - xp-wise.
        If you spend 60 XP on Fortitude versus 60 XP on Potence (lets say equal in other matters) then you want to know that they're worth the same against each other, that one isn't going to hands-down beat the other every time.

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        • #19
          Hrrm, this DA version doesn't feel half bad. Still one blood as Potence to auto soak and fire is still strong. I like it, feels more balanced.
          I'd still like to playtest it though.

          Comment


          • #20
            By all means to get to playing it yourself.

            Though our observations have been that, while it is a huge improvement over previous takes on the rules, it starts to lose a bit of the buff's luster after awhile. Where Potence spends 1 blood to convert the bonus dice into automatic successes for a full turn (applying to multiple attacks if you pick up even a small bit of Celerity and 2 bp/turn spending rates are easier to come by in DA), Fortitude is once per turn, you can pump up the dice to successes. So as combat gets more dangerous (multiple attackers, better access to multiple attacks per turn, etc.) Potence starts to pull ahead of Fortitude.

            This isn't an entirely bad thing (you want offensive to have a slight edge so combat doesn't last forever), but it can feel frustrating, especially because it can turn into an annoying decision paralysis of, "do I use it now, because this hit could be bad, but might not be, or do I save it in case a much worse hit comes next?" I'd advocate ignoring the "Once per turn..." caveat in the RAW and let normal blood per turn dictate how frequently you can use it to help counter this a bit.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Murdoc View Post
              Again, this just doesn't bother me, I guess because that's the way I've played it for over 20 years. Brujah? Yeah, don't fight them, they're the best at it. Simple as that. Toreador? They don't really use Celerity much, nor even fight, so not a big problem. Assamites? Again, yeah. One shows up, someone dies; that's the way of the world. That's their whole thing. It's what they do. And the 6 attacks thing is only with fairly old and powerful vampires, whom I'd expect to lose to anyway, regardless of what discipline they had at level 5.
              The problem is that it's the only thing that really matters. Melee 2 or Melee 5? Who cares, the winner is the guy with the extra dots of Celerity! Anyone trying to build a combat-ready character has essentially one goal: Obtain Celerity, at the highest level possible. Such a situation, where a relatively broad topic (the entirety of combat) boils down to a single ability as all other options to invest XP in combat-readiness are obviously inferior to it, is usually considered bad game design and V20 had some good ideas on how to fight that problem.

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              • #22
                One thing I've always wanted to play around with is re-imagining what Disciplines are available to Kindred. It's always bothered me that Ghouls have access to Potence, for instance, even when their Domitor doesn't access to the Discipline. While re-visiting the Book of Nod, the section where Caine develops his Disciplines jumped at me: Celerity, Fortitude, and Potence are the first powers he develops. Lillith teaches him Dominate, Obfuscate, and Presence, and then cautions him when he starts manifesting the Animalism, Auspex, and Protean powers. That got me thinking that maybe Celerity, Potence, and Fortitude should be "inherent" Disciplines, with a further number of Clan Disciplines, and the rest being out-of-Clan Disciplines. That might require a re-tooling of Clans for whom Celerity, Fortitude, or Potence are Clan Disciplines - unless of course the in-clan discount and benefits of specialism offset the lack of access to another power. Otherwise, perhaps the answer really should be less about handicapping the physical Disciplines and more giving them to all Kindred?

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                • #23
                  As I see it there are two major problems with combat in Vampire (and to an extent all of cWoD). First is dexterity rules everything. Attack, dodge, block you name it. First way of solving it would be to take some of the actions away from dexterity. Like for example dodge remains with dex, strength is for melee attacks, stamina is used for blocks and perception is used for ranged attacks. Problem here is potence becomes king in melee fights. So it would be far from perfect.

                  Another way would be the use of derivatived stats, like strength + dexterity + wits /3 for melee and dex + perception + wits /3 for ranged attacks and likewise. While this system reduces the one stat and one discipline is king over all others combatwise it leeds first and foremost to a more complex system and cWoD is not build for that. Solving this is not easy and every input sombody has is welcome because I like balanced systems.

                  Second issue I see, is that only celerity has a secondary use of the discipline it can give you extra action, while the others only gives you extra successes for blood, which is nice but not as good as extra actions. V20DA improved the situation but is still an uneven playing field and there is no easy solution for this one. The only thing I done so far is that you can uses Fortitude up to your blood limit per turn. If you have a high rating and a decent generation you should be a though nut to crack as long as you have blood.
                  Last edited by Meldok; 12-04-2017, 12:15 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Meldok View Post
                    First is dexterity rules everything. Attack, dodge, block you name it. First way of solving it would be to take some of the actions away from dexterity.
                    No, that would only move a dex-based combat to a strength-based combat, and we already saw how bad it works with D&D. I think it would be enough if we removed the "extra success = extra damage" rule, that way you couldn't score an high damage just through dexterity.

                    It's always bothered me that Ghouls have access to Potence, for instance, even when their Domitor doesn't access to the Discipline
                    The manuals explains it as a reaction of human bodies to vampire blood. It's not something you teach or that depends by the domitor, it's just a biology-like effect.

                    The problem is that it's the only thing that really matters. Melee 2 or Melee 5? Who cares, the winner is the guy with the extra dots of Celerity!
                    Not exactly... five hits are not going to amount to much if you can't bypass damage reduction. And your 4 extra actions are going to trigger after your opponent's action, so if he scores 4 or 5 aggravates with beast claws, sends you to rotshreck through lure of the flames or hits with a dread gaze you're not going to be that effective. So yes, celerity is still the best combat discipline but 5 attacks now mean 4 blood points and when you're against 3-4 guys they're all going to act before you can use your extra shots. It's strong, not gamebreaking.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

                      No, that would only move a dex-based combat to a strength-based combat, and we already saw how bad it works with D&D. I think it would be enough if we removed the "extra success = extra damage" rule, that way you couldn't score an high damage just through dexterity.
                      Did you read my whole post or just the first sentence because this is exactly the first problem I mention. And your suggestions would mean that suddenly Fortitude is the one must have discipline, it just shifts the problem.


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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Meldok View Post
                        Did you read my whole post or just the first sentence because this is exactly the first problem I mention. And your suggestions would mean that suddenly Fortitude is the one must have discipline, it just shifts the problem.
                        Ofc I did, I just didn't see much of a reason to quote the rest.
                        Also, there's an intrinsec issue with dex-based successes and that's the effect of dodging: I attack, you dodge, super fine. But if I attack with my second or third action you can't dodge, so you just suck up damage: all the dex+whatever count as extra successes, and then you add strength. This is how Celerity gets you: it's not the number of attacks, but how helpless you are against the extra ones.

                        Unless you decide I automatically hit you, but then I might roll less damage dice than a regular attack that you attempt to dodge and it would make no sense.
                        I would really avoid derivative stats: once again, D&D shows us how badly they work and we should really keep this intuitive as it has always been.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

                          Unless you decide I automatically hit you, but then I might roll less damage dice than a regular attack that you attempt to dodge and it would make no sense.
                          I would really avoid derivative stats: once again, D&D shows us how badly they work and we should really keep this intuitive as it has always been.
                          I don't get why you hate on D&D so much. It works fine for it intended purpose and that is tactical oriented combat which is way more complex than most other systems. Granted I only can speak up till Pathfinder, because 4.0 was a huge disaster and didn't play 5.0 yet. But it still does it job well.


                          cWoD is a different approach to rpg and one of my favourite brands (except Werewolf) but it is bad at balancing and this is especially true for combat.
                          All I was saying that it would take a lot of work and there is no easy solution and it would take a lot of effort. And neither my nor your suggestion are a way of fixing it but eliminating extra successes gives another discipline the upper hand.

                          For now my solution to play with the V20: DA rules for these 3 disciplines and buffing up Fortitude uses up to generational limit for blood use per turn works reasonable well.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Illithid
                            - the Auto Soak that they brought in officially, doesn't let you do it for the curses of caine; fire and sunlight.
                            - There is no reason to think that a "balancing" of potence and fortitude wouldn't have the same amendment, I suppose in line with "rework how other kind of damages are applied"
                            That's good, that warms me up to this idea, the DAV version of Fortitude.

                            Originally posted by Illithid
                            - The reason that people (including myself) argue in favour of potence and fortitude being comparably powered is so they don't feel like they lose out choosing a particular character build - xp-wise.
                            If you spend 60 XP on Fortitude versus 60 XP on Potence (lets say equal in other matters) then you want to know that they're worth the same against each other, that one isn't going to hands-down beat the other every time.
                            That would make sense to me if Fortitude only worked against Potence, and vice-versa, but they don't. They both have many other uses that make them objectively harder to compare in terms of utility. Fortitude works for punches from non-Potence vampires, humans, werewolf claws, Gangrel claws, fire, sunlight, car crashes, falling damage, all sorts of things. Potence similarly works against non-Fortitude vampires, humans, werewolves, doing holds, jumps, lifting things, throwing things, busting down doors, opening pickle jars, etc. The Potence vs. Fortitude fights are just too uncommon to make them much of an issue, so I don't see why they need to be balanced. It's not "fair"? Life's not fair, the WoD even moreso. But that's just me. Golden Rule states that if some rule bothers you then change it. Me, it just doesn't bother. Nor anyone else I've every played with.

                            Originally posted by Cifer
                            The problem is that it's the only thing that really matters. Melee 2 or Melee 5? Who cares, the winner is the guy with the extra dots of Celerity!
                            I guess you didn't understand my point. My point was, so what? Yes, Celerity is powerful, that's the point. It doesn't make everything else useless because not many vampires have it. If I'm a Ventrue walking around and run into another vampire looking to smoke me, chances are he doesn't have Celerity. So my having Brawl, Melee, Firearms, Dodge/Athletics, armor, guns, etc. still helps me win the day, never mind my in-clan advantages of Fortitude, Dominate, and Presence. If he does have Celerity, yes, that makes things harder for me, for sure. Screwed? Not automatically, because having Celerity does not mean having 5 levels of it automatically. At lower levels, I still have a chance, especially if my Abilities and Disciplines are higher. And this isn't even getting into other situational factors like having my Coterie with me, or bodyguards, or being in public where Celerity is a Masquerade breach. And his extra actions come at the end of the turn, so sure, he punches me, does some damage, and then it's Command "Surrender" or Dread Gaze, or whatever I have. The point is, having a bit of Celerity does not make you automatic god of all vampires. Really, you guys should try playing Aberrant sometime, if you want to talk about 'unbalanced', yet the game still works perfectly fine.

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                            • #29
                              "Life's not fair," the Rule Zero Fallacy, and "but this game is worse!" strung together in one post? It's like a trifecta of bad game design commentary.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
                                The manuals explains it as a reaction of human bodies to vampire blood. It's not something you teach or that depends by the domitor, it's just a biology-like effect.
                                Sure, I get that. It's just not something I particularly like - hence my proposal.

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