Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Obtenbration

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Obtenbration

    I think I know the answer to this but I was looking for other's thought on it. With Arms of the Abyss, does each arm get an attack or is it all based off the number attacks the cainite gets?

  • #2
    They get attacks.

    Comment


    • #3
      Yeah, each one gets its own attack. Which makes Ob4 kinda weird, doesn't it? You get four tentacles, but only 1 extra attack? I've house ruled it so that the number of successes you roll gives you control of one of the tentacles, with the rest just waving about on their own, doing who knows what.

      Comment


      • #4
        Im pretty sure they get one directed attack and then just act on their own volition after that, so if they get an extra attack it probably means they get 2 directed attacks then just do what they want uncontrolled, thats the way i read it anyway!!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Murdoc View Post
          Yeah, each one gets its own attack. Which makes Ob4 kinda weird, doesn't it? You get four tentacles, but only 1 extra attack? I've house ruled it so that the number of successes you roll gives you control of one of the tentacles, with the rest just waving about on their own, doing who knows what.
          A house rule I'd suggest is to give the Lasombra who uses Arms of the Abyss a full-auto melee attack with dicepool bonus of [Hits on activation check] and no difficulty penalty. This neatly steps around Lasombra getting ten million billion actions as all their tentacles roll attacks and stops the inescapable hentai grapple.

          Comment


          • #6
            Dark ages - They get one attack for all the arms (but also don't have to pay Blood to create them and don't add potence/celerity)
            V20 Modern doesn't say they get independent attacks, so it could be ruled that the Lasombra has to split to use them as extensions of themselves; not giving one per tentacle free attacks.
            For Balance, don't give them an attack per tentacle summoned, it's crazy. especially since they can grapple and have potence.

            Comment


            • #7
              There's that word again, "balance". Balance with what exactly? Personally, I think that it's crazy not to give them each an attack. Look at what else lvl4 gives you:
              Can see in darkness
              +3 dice to Intimidation
              Tentacles reduce Stamina by 2
              Lvl2 already does #3, as well as cause courage rolls. So really all you are getting, for 2BP and a roll, is being able to see in darkness, +1 attack. There's no way I'd spend that just to scare someone, and as for combat, lvl3 is far superior, so why would I use this at all? It has to be superior to Lvl3, and doing what lvl3 does, plus a few of these little extras, makes it worth it. IMO. At least with my house rule it limits it to your successes, and can never go beyond 4, unlike lvl3.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Murdoc View Post
                Lvl2 already does #3, as well as cause courage rolls. So really all you are getting, for 2BP and a roll, is being able to see in darkness, +1 attack. There's no way I'd spend that just to scare someone, and as for combat, lvl3 is far superior, so why would I use this at all? It has to be superior to Lvl3, and doing what lvl3 does, plus a few of these little extras, makes it worth it.
                Point is that it stacks. You do BOTH black metamorphosis and tentacles, and you put a blanket of shadow on top. Also, tentacles usually have a quite shitty dice pool when it comes to attacking while your second BM attack uses your full roll; to give tentacles enough dexterity you need to have Celerity, but then again if you do you can hammer your opponent with extra attacks while your tentacles are stuck at one. So, I wouldn't really call level 4 weaker than 3. On average, tentacles are easy to both dodge and destroy.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Point is that it stacks. You do BOTH black metamorphosis and tentacles,
                  So? It still costs more to do so. And assuming the ST allows it. If you're worried about munchkining, then don't allow that. I had never even thought of it.

                  Also, tentacles usually have a quite shitty dice pool when it comes to attacking while your second BM attack uses your full roll;
                  Ok, wow, I've never interpreted it that way. I just always saw it as you don't use an Ability with either case, because it doesn't actually say that you can use an Ability with the attack, it only mentions their Attributes in terms of what they can do. But now that I've re-read it, I can see where you could assume that would be the case, because with BM it is you making the attack. But I can easily see it interpreted the other way as well. It's really unclear.

                  For that matter, it doesn't say that you can't use your Ability with AotA. Sure, they're not on you exactly, but it is still you directing their attacks, isn't it? I suppose you could interpret that as you just giving them targets and an attack type, while they do the actual attack details, but then, can't you say the same with the tentacles from BM? After all, you have to be getting some kind of help in order to get that extra attack, otherwise you could attack twice using each of your own arms without penalty. The rule even says that the tentacles summoned by BM are like the ones in AotA, with the only difference being that their Attributes are different. So why would anything else be different, be that each getting an attack, or whether or not they use an Ability? There's internal consistency to think about here.

                  So really, there's a whole lot of room for different interpretations there. And as for whether you prefer a single extra attack that lets you use your Ability as well, or (potentially) several additional attacks without would be a matter of personal choice. It just bugs the heck out of me that there are four tentacles there and you get one attack. I just can't imagine why that would be; it just sounds like an artificial (OOG) attempt at "play-balance", which not only damages immersion (and internal consistency), but again I have to ask, balance with what?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Murdoc View Post
                    So? It still costs more to do so. And assuming the ST allows it. If you're worried about munchkining, then don't allow that. I had never even thought of it.
                    That was not what I meant. With BM you can have an extra attack, if that sounds too little then you can not use the power. But there could be situations where going all out is exactly what you want and since they makes it harder to soak it could be useful for a dogpile attack of all your tentacles against a single target.

                    For that matter, it doesn't say that you can't use your Ability with AotA. Sure, they're not on you exactly, but it is still you directing their attacks, isn't it? I suppose you could interpret that as you just giving them targets and an attack type, while they do the actual attack details, but then, can't you say the same with the tentacles from BM? After all, you have to be getting some kind of help in order to get that extra attack, otherwise you could attack twice using each of your own arms without penalty. The rule even says that the tentacles summoned by BM are like the ones in AotA, with the only difference being that their Attributes are different. So why would anything else be different, be that each getting an attack, or whether or not they use an Ability? There's internal consistency to think about here.
                    Hrm. Obt 4 tentacles look more "personal" (they use the kindred's physical stats and are an extension of himself), and the wording they've chosen "may do an additional attacks using the tentacles" should mean that the Cainite has a regular extra attack, as if he was under a constant Celerity 1 effect, and the tentacles are the cause of it; so Brawl dots definitely applies to them.

                    AotA tentacles look a bit different, though, and the way it's worded makes me think they're not extensions of the Vampire: they're summoned from the Abyss and merely controlled by his will, so they act like minions with their own stats and the only traits they have access to are the ones specified in the description (STR+1 damage, DEX to hit, no Brawl value). The only puzzling thing is how they still use the Vampire stamina to soak rather than having a Sta value equal to OBT, like every other stat, that makes me just wonder why. Balance issues?

                    but again I have to ask, balance with what?
                    With Celerity, probably. Celerity asks 4 blood points to gain 4 extra attacks for one round only, Obt 4 would be 2 blood points for the entire scene. That's also why I doubt the AotA tentacles can attack adding your brawl stat, it would make Obt way stronger than Celerity - and with just two powers out of five.

                    I guess you could always think of the BM tentacles like a second set of arms? You have two arms but can only do one attack because your mind is only focusing on one target; wanna do two, split the dice pool. So, you now have 6 arms but you can only focus on two tasks; of course if you had enough multitasking capabilites you could use them for six different attacks but your brain can't just handle the thing. Even if you could still try, actually, should your opponent be held or paralyzed and you had no interest in an high attack dice pool.

                    The Arms of the Abyss, being summons and independent entities from you, only require commands and do not need to be controlled like an arm would so they have their own personal action each round.
                    Last edited by Maris Streck; 11-25-2017, 12:56 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      So, I saw someone talking about balance and obt tentacles. I want to call attention to something - how are the tentacles different from ghouls in combat? A gangrel, for example, could have 10 ghouls with him. The lasombra hardly will have 10 tentacles. What is the problem with this? Also with animalism you could call animals to help you. It is the same.
                      Also, the vampire can always get away from the tentacles after they spawn. The bigger problem with the tentacles are the protection they give to the lasombra(+4 due to multiple opponents rule). I never had any problem storytelling with tentacles in attack mode. In defense this is also not such a big deal if you throw a lot of fire in the lasombra.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Schrodingoethe View Post
                        So, I saw someone talking about balance and obt tentacles. I want to call attention to something - how are the tentacles different from ghouls in combat? A gangrel, for example, could have 10 ghouls with him. The lasombra hardly will have 10 tentacles. What is the problem with this? Also with animalism you could call animals to help you. It is the same.
                        Also, the vampire can always get away from the tentacles after they spawn. The bigger problem with the tentacles are the protection they give to the lasombra(+4 due to multiple opponents rule). I never had any problem storytelling with tentacles in attack mode. In defense this is also not such a big deal if you throw a lot of fire in the lasombra.
                        Mostly it's a mindset issue. What people normally do/want in RPGs is a "Let's you and me fight" type thing where two badasses square off and use their might and magic to have an epic duel. Hiring/dominating/ghouling gangbangers to shoot the evil Tzimsice with their Vorpal Kalashnikovs +3 and Flasks of Molotov is the objectively superior way to fight, but it's not cool. It's not the kind of fight people want to play out.

                        But yes, while Arms of the Abyss is the superior option in single combat, it is merely okay in combat in general.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Schrodingoethe View Post
                          So, I saw someone talking about balance and obt tentacles. I want to call attention to something - how are the tentacles different from ghouls in combat? A gangrel, for example, could have 10 ghouls with him. The lasombra hardly will have 10 tentacles. What is the problem with this? Also with animalism you could call animals to help you. It is the same.
                          Also, the vampire can always get away from the tentacles after they spawn. The bigger problem with the tentacles are the protection they give to the lasombra(+4 due to multiple opponents rule). I never had any problem storytelling with tentacles in attack mode. In defense this is also not such a big deal if you throw a lot of fire in the lasombra.
                          Good luck getting ten combat ready ghouls into the princes chamber, or calling any animal but his house cat to help you.

                          Shadow Tentacles are the invisible weapon that the non lasombra can’t carry

                          I’d have to say it is definitely not the same

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            To be honest, if you're going to attack the prince, the game itself is probably focused on high politcs - and once you are indeed inside his house, unless he is very incompetent, he will have defended it very well with taumaturgic rituals and whatnot. The situation isn't that simple - once you get in there and go trough all the ********** the prince was able to use to defend his haven, then he's pretty much dead. I'd say it is almost impossible to sneak attack a vampire in his own haven without having political support, depending on his power. So, it is situational at best, in my view. Do remember - princes can use boons to get thaumaturgic rituals from tremeres and use them to protect themselves. Any vampire with political power can do that, in reality.
                            Does that make obt easier to use to tackle low power games? More or less. Level two breaks the masquerade pretty much, but that aside, the lasombra can sneak up in people as you said. But each clan has their own 'powerhouse' which makes them shine in their own way.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Zennis View Post

                              Good luck getting ten combat ready ghouls into the princes chamber, or calling any animal but his house cat to help you.

                              Shadow Tentacles are the invisible weapon that the non lasombra can’t carry

                              I’d have to say it is definitely not the same
                              "Naked in an antimagic field" is a retarded test case for any and all powers and practically never comes up in an actual game.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X