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  • How long has it been since the flood

    I’ve been thinking, most newly embraced vampires of this age are 13th generation and this fact got me asking, if the 3rd generation vampires are the only ones who survived the flood (aside form Cain), then they’ve only embraced 10 generations worth of vampires since that time (on average).

    So how long ago was the flood?

    Whether it even happened in setting or not isn’t something I want to go into too much, because what I’m really getting at is, how long did it take for 10 generations of vampires to get created?

    How long has it been since the 3rd generation started embracing?

    Biblical scholars say the flood ended around 4500 years ago, now I’m not saying that that’s the date anyone should use nor am I religious or inclined to take biblical information too seriously but Vampire has a strong basis in the story of Cain and what it says in the book of Genesis and the dating of that story, while not accurate, leads us to believe that it’s only been a few millennium since vampires started spreading.

    Is this too long a time for only 10 generations to have risen up?

    Is it too short a time for 10 generations to have risen up?

    Does anyone propose a more reasonable timeline for the 13 generations of Cainites?

    Please let me know your thoughts.
    Last edited by Zennis; 12-06-2017, 12:06 PM.

  • #2
    So in Dark Ages they set the standard neonate at 11th generation and still have the average 8th gen on the verge of becoming an elder. They also talk about how vicious and bloody the War of Princes was so I figured that the War got so bad it effectively stalled generation growth in Europe. The elders of the time lost their lieutenants and shock troops so they started embracing 8th gen replacements that would be the newest elders of Europe today.

    This explains the divide they talk about occasionally where the elders in America would only be considered ancillae in Europe. The oldest Kindred predate the War but there is a sudden divide around the 8th generation where most of them are much younger than they should be with the occasional 11th gen that is 800 years old.

    Comment


    • #3
      This is what I use for my chronicles as a general approach.

      I use a very integrated approach in my World of Darkness chronicles. While I don't allow PCs to be from different games, it's the same setting across all game lines. So the Flood occurred around 12,000 years ago when we entered the Holocene and the Ice Age began to end. The Antedeluvial civilization that existed during the Ice Age was wiped out, and real history began afterwards.

      The Third generation survived, but didn't raise from torpor until much later, perhaps not until 6000 BC or so. They established the Second City which later became known in human legend as Babel. They later became the god-kings of ancient Sumerian city states. While they embraced childer, they did not give them much freedom - there were many things that they did not teach them, and they were completely influenced by Presence and Dominate. Only very rarely did they allow their childer to embrace their own childer, and did not allow their grandchilder to embrace at all. If their childer wanted companions, they had ghouls.

      So it wasn't until the Third Generation began descending into torpor once again around 4000 BC to 3000 BC that the fourth generation was actually able to begin to embrace other generations. But they were very powerful by now, and had learned from their masters so they kept their childer on a tight leash as well. Still for a long time civilization grew and spread, and vampires of multiple generations occurred. After this date for the next few thousand years, an antedeluvian will occasionally waken, do something, and maybe embrace and raise a childe, but it is an extraordinary event.

      Then disaster happened around 1200 BC with the Bronze Age collapse. All over the Mediterranean, Middle East, and Indus Valley civilization collapses. Empires fall, cities are destroyed, literacy vanishes, and a dark age begins. Only Egypt survives, and it never regains its greatness. In my world, the Bronze Age Collapse was a combination of factors, but one of them was a concerted effort by the Lupines to destroy vampirism. The vast majority of vampires do not survive. Neonates and ancillae are exterminated, and many elders perish as well. The age of the god-kings is over and vampires learn the benefits of hiding. With only a few exceptions, the few remaining fourth and fifth generation vampires have to begin again. Many are in torpor and won't awake for many centuries.

      It takes several centuries before most civilization begins to restore itself by 900 BC. So there's only 3000 years or so that now need to be accounted for. At this point the vampires begin to restore most of their numbers. But they've lost a lot of collective knowledge. The antedeluvians are now a mystery, and most of their childer are no longer around - either dead or in torpor. The fifth generation that exists has no direct knowledge of the antedeluvians, and are of various experience - some are old and mighty, others not so much. Bereft of the teachings of the antedeluvians, and the former controlled exercised by sires over their progeny, the time between creation of the next generations of vampires shrinks. But this still takes a very long time before vampires are able to embrace compared to now. Sires are still very powerful with potent blood and lots of experience. To protect themselves, vampires bring their broods (clans) into distinct geographic regions in order to prevent conflict between themselves.

      By the time of the Persian Empire becomes the first universal state around 550 BC, the highest generation is now about eight. There might be a few roaming around even higher, but they likely do not survive. Lupines are still very powerful, the Fae are very powerful (although not as powerful as they were during the Bronze Age), and there are now many mages. Vampires have a lot of dangerous competitors. Now with Persia, many of clans, dispersed in regions away from each other, are in areas now ruled by a single state. This brings vampires of different clans into conflict with each other en masse for the first time. The next several hundred years see a rise in intra-clan conflicts. First single clans against each other, and then clan alliances against others. This is the time of the Punic Wars when Roman Ventrue and their allies destroy Carthage.

      So by the time of the Classical Era with the Roman, Persian, Mauryan, and Han Empires around the world, a new equilibrium has been created. The highest generation is now probably around tenth, but the various clan wars gave destroyed many vampires including elders. Many of the methusalehs who survived the Bronze Age collapse and subsequent struggles are now going into torpor. There's a general peace for several centuries as civilization expands, new cities are founded, and vampires spread beyond the original civilizational core. Population increases, but then stagnates as plagues and economic decline hints. Vampire infighting begins again. Then disaster strikes.

      Barbarian invasions (once more influenced by Lupines) and the rise of monotheism presents two huge challenges for vampires. Empires collapse and cities are abandoned. This creates intense competition between vampires as their other supernatural enemies kill many of them. Vampire population overall plummets. Even in those areas where urban civilization survives, the influx of vampire refugees elsewhere create a similar dynamic of fraticide. Although you do have a few scattered vampires of high generation about, overall the pressure has exterminated most of the high generations. The typical highest generation has now moved backed to eight or so. During this time, many vampires believe they may be existing in the prophesied Gehenna.

      This time when civilization resets itself around AD 800 with Charlemagne, the Abbasids, and Byzantines, there are a lot less vampires of low generation. They don't have the power, experience, or instruction to control their childer as they once did. Clans are intermixed and there is much more competition. For the first time, elders lose their control over their childer's embraces. In a few centuries, the highest generation is now around the twelfth. Vampire population explodes leaving us with the dynamic we know from the Dark Ages books which set the stage for the Anarch Revolt. When the next crisis hits with a combination of the Mongol invasions, Black Death, and witch hunting, vampire society completely breaks down.

      When the crisis ends after the formation of the Camarilla, the Convention of Thorns, and initial defeat of the incipient Sabbat, most vampires have been destroyed that existed beforehand. With recent memories of disaster, and new codification of the powers of Princes to control the embrace, vampire society heavily prevents the creation of new childer. This strong control exists until the Industrial Age when population centers grow and expand, and being several centuries after the Anarch Revolt, social pressure lessens and the time between generations decrease. Since there are surviving vampires of the twelfth and thirteenth generation at this time, elders do notice some strange things if they allow those vampires to embrace, but such abominations are quickly wiped out during the Anarch Revolt and Camarilla-Sabbat Wars, or those vampires used the time to diablerize their way for survival. In the meantime, the Princes ensure very few vampires of such high generation are allowed to embrace. That does not come to be a problem until the modern age when the human world changes so much that "neo-anarchs" begin agitating for even more freedoms, and the first thin bloods begin to appear in the 1950s, but not become a noticeable problem until decades later.

      So in my scenario, the issue of how long does it take for the generations to play itself out is not a problem. The original elders keep a strong leash on their childer, and then periodic exterminations occur that particularly wipe out the youngest. Over time though, the time between the next generation forming increasingly shrinks.

      Also, I would not say that most newly embraced vampires are the 13th generation. Character creation rules are there for game mechanics, not demographics. 13th generation vampires are normal and typical, but not necessarily the most common unless the ST decides they are. If I went solely by how PCs create their characters, in my experience 11th generation seems more common than 13th.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
        This is what I use for my chronicles as a general approach.

        I use a very integrated approach in my World of Darkness chronicles. While I don't allow PCs to be from different games, it's the same setting across all game lines. So the Flood occurred around 12,000 years ago when we entered the Holocene and the Ice Age began to end. The Antedeluvial civilization that existed during the Ice Age was wiped out, and real history began afterwards.

        The Third generation survived, but didn't raise from torpor until much later, perhaps not until 6000 BC or so. They established the Second City which later became known in human legend as Babel. They later became the god-kings of ancient Sumerian city states. While they embraced childer, they did not give them much freedom - there were many things that they did not teach them, and they were completely influenced by Presence and Dominate. Only very rarely did they allow their childer to embrace their own childer, and did not allow their grandchilder to embrace at all. If their childer wanted companions, they had ghouls.

        So it wasn't until the Third Generation began descending into torpor once again around 4000 BC to 3000 BC that the fourth generation was actually able to begin to embrace other generations. But they were very powerful by now, and had learned from their masters so they kept their childer on a tight leash as well. Still for a long time civilization grew and spread, and vampires of multiple generations occurred. After this date for the next few thousand years, an antedeluvian will occasionally waken, do something, and maybe embrace and raise a childe, but it is an extraordinary event.

        Then disaster happened around 1200 BC with the Bronze Age collapse. All over the Mediterranean, Middle East, and Indus Valley civilization collapses. Empires fall, cities are destroyed, literacy vanishes, and a dark age begins. Only Egypt survives, and it never regains its greatness. In my world, the Bronze Age Collapse was a combination of factors, but one of them was a concerted effort by the Lupines to destroy vampirism. The vast majority of vampires do not survive. Neonates and ancillae are exterminated, and many elders perish as well. The age of the god-kings is over and vampires learn the benefits of hiding. With only a few exceptions, the few remaining fourth and fifth generation vampires have to begin again. Many are in torpor and won't awake for many centuries.

        It takes several centuries before most civilization begins to restore itself by 900 BC. So there's only 3000 years or so that now need to be accounted for. At this point the vampires begin to restore most of their numbers. But they've lost a lot of collective knowledge. The antedeluvians are now a mystery, and most of their childer are no longer around - either dead or in torpor. The fifth generation that exists has no direct knowledge of the antedeluvians, and are of various experience - some are old and mighty, others not so much. Bereft of the teachings of the antedeluvians, and the former controlled exercised by sires over their progeny, the time between creation of the next generations of vampires shrinks. But this still takes a very long time before vampires are able to embrace compared to now. Sires are still very powerful with potent blood and lots of experience. To protect themselves, vampires bring their broods (clans) into distinct geographic regions in order to prevent conflict between themselves.

        By the time of the Persian Empire becomes the first universal state around 550 BC, the highest generation is now about eight. There might be a few roaming around even higher, but they likely do not survive. Lupines are still very powerful, the Fae are very powerful (although not as powerful as they were during the Bronze Age), and there are now many mages. Vampires have a lot of dangerous competitors. Now with Persia, many of clans, dispersed in regions away from each other, are in areas now ruled by a single state. This brings vampires of different clans into conflict with each other en masse for the first time. The next several hundred years see a rise in intra-clan conflicts. First single clans against each other, and then clan alliances against others. This is the time of the Punic Wars when Roman Ventrue and their allies destroy Carthage.

        So by the time of the Classical Era with the Roman, Persian, Mauryan, and Han Empires around the world, a new equilibrium has been created. The highest generation is now probably around tenth, but the various clan wars gave destroyed many vampires including elders. Many of the methusalehs who survived the Bronze Age collapse and subsequent struggles are now going into torpor. There's a general peace for several centuries as civilization expands, new cities are founded, and vampires spread beyond the original civilizational core. Population increases, but then stagnates as plagues and economic decline hints. Vampire infighting begins again. Then disaster strikes.

        Barbarian invasions (once more influenced by Lupines) and the rise of monotheism presents two huge challenges for vampires. Empires collapse and cities are abandoned. This creates intense competition between vampires as their other supernatural enemies kill many of them. Vampire population overall plummets. Even in those areas where urban civilization survives, the influx of vampire refugees elsewhere create a similar dynamic of fraticide. Although you do have a few scattered vampires of high generation about, overall the pressure has exterminated most of the high generations. The typical highest generation has now moved backed to eight or so. During this time, many vampires believe they may be existing in the prophesied Gehenna.

        This time when civilization resets itself around AD 800 with Charlemagne, the Abbasids, and Byzantines, there are a lot less vampires of low generation. They don't have the power, experience, or instruction to control their childer as they once did. Clans are intermixed and there is much more competition. For the first time, elders lose their control over their childer's embraces. In a few centuries, the highest generation is now around the twelfth. Vampire population explodes leaving us with the dynamic we know from the Dark Ages books which set the stage for the Anarch Revolt. When the next crisis hits with a combination of the Mongol invasions, Black Death, and witch hunting, vampire society completely breaks down.

        When the crisis ends after the formation of the Camarilla, the Convention of Thorns, and initial defeat of the incipient Sabbat, most vampires have been destroyed that existed beforehand. With recent memories of disaster, and new codification of the powers of Princes to control the embrace, vampire society heavily prevents the creation of new childer. This strong control exists until the Industrial Age when population centers grow and expand, and being several centuries after the Anarch Revolt, social pressure lessens and the time between generations decrease. Since there are surviving vampires of the twelfth and thirteenth generation at this time, elders do notice some strange things if they allow those vampires to embrace, but such abominations are quickly wiped out during the Anarch Revolt and Camarilla-Sabbat Wars, or those vampires used the time to diablerize their way for survival. In the meantime, the Princes ensure very few vampires of such high generation are allowed to embrace. That does not come to be a problem until the modern age when the human world changes so much that "neo-anarchs" begin agitating for even more freedoms, and the first thin bloods begin to appear in the 1950s, but not become a noticeable problem until decades later.

        So in my scenario, the issue of how long does it take for the generations to play itself out is not a problem. The original elders keep a strong leash on their childer, and then periodic exterminations occur that particularly wipe out the youngest. Over time though, the time between the next generation forming increasingly shrinks.

        Also, I would not say that most newly embraced vampires are the 13th generation. Character creation rules are there for game mechanics, not demographics. 13th generation vampires are normal and typical, but not necessarily the most common unless the ST decides they are. If I went solely by how PCs create their characters, in my experience 11th generation seems more common than 13th.
        That was a great answer and I found it very helpful. Thanks a lot.

        It sounds like (from your perspective) the various civilization collapses led to vampiric extinction for many of the higher gen (neonate) vampires and I can see how there have been many such events around the world, these events essentially hit a local reset button on the development of new vampires with only the older, more adept vampires surviving (and those who went into torpor and actually came out in a good situation).

        Comment


        • #5
          The oldest canon example of a post flood 4th gen would be Japeth (embraced 7225 BC). Since he was the third son of Noah according to Genesis i think the idea back then would be that the flood ended sometime around his embrace.

          Through my headcanon is similar to Black Fox´s, in that the flood was around 10000 BC.





          English is not my native language, so i apologize for errors in grammar or spelling.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Cadmiumcadamium View Post
            The oldest canon example of a post flood 4th gen would be Japeth (embraced 7225 BC). Since he was the third son of Noah according to Genesis i think the idea back then would be that the flood ended sometime around his embrace.

            Through my headcanon is similar to Black Fox´s, in that the flood was around 10000 BC.
            What book is this from

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm usually boring with stuff like this and say that if the Flood happened, it was a long time ago, and thats' the end of it. Trying to place it on a special date just means much work for little gain as its not normally important and I consider it to have happened, if it did happen, before the rise of the first known civilizations like Sumer, Egypt, Indus etc.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Zennis View Post

                What book is this from
                This should help.

                http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Japheth

                Comment


                • #9
                  If I remember, 14th & 15th generation also have very few chance of success of being sired? That means very few 13th gen would actually try to sire.

                  I also kinda remember something about that limit being for 12th generation trying to sire 13th in the Dark Ages, which would mean that in previous times the limit might have been higher, slowly decreasing as Gehena was getting closer / the blood was getting older / whatever compulsion from the 3rd gen was growing weaker (or any other explanation you might want)

                  It's also important to remember that population was way lower back then and most kindred wouldn't have liked too much competition (and ghoul serves most of the uses of a childer)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Zennis View Post
                    What book is this from
                    Originally posted by Phoebus View Post
                    The embrace date is from Giovanni Chronicles I. The fact that he's the first post flood 4th gen is from memory, but i think the info is in that book as well.





                    English is not my native language, so i apologize for errors in grammar or spelling.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      My own head canon is that the Flood was some kind of disaster, stories of which have become garbled over time. I myself think of it as the sinking of Atlantis, probably around 10,000 BCE and the relatively small human populations of that era kept kindred and embraces extremely low for millennia afterwards.


                      My Storyteller Vault supplements.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think the average gen has less to do with the flood than it does to the Antes siring less and less. For a long time, new fourth gens popped up with a fair bit of regularity. And them and their childer competing for blood meant that very few 12th and thinner bloods survived for very long. The more the Antes slept, the more rarely they sired 4th gens, the more thin blooded vamps started surviving because they had less competition from low generation demigods. Eventually a point was reached where new 4th gens were incredibly rare, and even many 5th and 6th gens spent lots of time in torpor. With no competition from the demigods, the thin bloods became a virtual swarm.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          As pointed, there are several ways to explain the current generations. And there are also several ways to call those theories into question.

                          What we do have in canon, aside that a lot of info can be false, is that the main 4th gen arise between 7,000 and 500 B.C., with few even among them being more than 5k years from now.

                          If this sets the Deluge around 8k B.C.? It doesn't even guarantees that there was an actual deluge, given that only the elusive 3rd gen witnessed it.


                          Sorry if I seem too straightforward, or if I don't get you. Autism isn't a forgiving condition.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Since WOD has things like all the creatures in Australia, nothing like Noah's flood can be reconcilable with it sans "Gaia/God created all the creatures in Australia after the flood because.. reasons"(or Volcanos shooting koala bears as super sonic speeds!)

                            So we reasonably have to tone down the deluge(and whether or not it happened at all, whether the 3rd gens weren't a bunch of Renegade elders who ran away from their duty so they could sit thickening their blood and eat their childer are different arguments.

                            I personally like Green Sahara to have been the antedeluvian age for the west, its where vampires rose, lost civilizations occured in the deep past and a small group of renegades broke off from at various times to head north to become the antedeluvians while the majority stuck to the old and proper ways of the laibon.

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