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  • #31
    Originally posted by Malkavian87 View Post

    I've read my fair share of V:tM sourcebooks and novels over the years. I can't remember a single instance of Sabbat Cainites leaving their vessels alive. It's the World of Darkness after all, a much higher murder rate is to be expected. And by the way; it's only a murder if a corpse or a disappearance is reported. I suspect Sabbat social functions involve a truckload of people who won't be missed, whose remains are expertly disposed of afterwards.

    There's a difference between "There's twice as many murders in the world of Darkness" and "there's 10x as many murders in the world of darkness.. and of those 99 out of 100 is caused by Sabbat feeding"

    Because the second is what you get.. and only if Sabbat vampires only feed sparingly and never have to say... use blood to power discplines. Assuming they are using blood to power disciplines and they kill each and every person they feed on we hit a level where the Sabbat kills more people then Cancer at which point the idea of a Masquerade/silence of the blood by scale is a joke. Assuming its "just people who don't matter' and the Sabbat has a well run machine that keeps this from happening would put the Sabbat as spending probably more resources on body disposal.. than the Nazis.

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    • #32
      There's a difference between Sabbat vampires not really giving a shit if they kill a vessel while feeding and them killing the vessel literally every time. Not only is it just plain stupid, its wasteful. Unless they're performing a ritae like the Blood Bath where an excessive amount of exsanguination is the point of the exercise then there's just no reason to completely drain a vessel unless you and your pack are particularly hard up for blood. That happens surely, and the pack won't bat an eye when they capri sun a mortal to top off, but unless they're using Celerity every night of the week it is going to be uncommon. Any pack that just does it for the lulz is a pack not long for the world, as chances are they're going to get used as bait for hunters or the Cam.

      As far as stealthy, survivable feeding goes I would recommend a tech-savvy Kindred download apps like Grindr and Manhunt. They might as well be GrubHub.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Malkavian87 View Post

        I've read my fair share of V:tM sourcebooks and novels over the years. I can't remember a single instance of Sabbat Cainites leaving their vessels alive. It's the World of Darkness after all, a much higher murder rate is to be expected. And by the way; it's only a murder if a corpse or a disappearance is reported. I suspect Sabbat social functions involve a truckload of people who won't be missed, whose remains are expertly disposed of afterwards.
        Well, a single vampire who never leaves their victims alive produces 36 corpses per year - only for rising in the evening. If that vampire uses three BP per night instead of one (and Sabbat vamps are not exactly known for holding back with their powers), that's 108. If we're going by the old "10,000 humans per vampire in a Sabbat city", that means one percent of the city's population is murdered every year. Those are ten times the numbers of lovely cities like Caracas.

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        • #34
          Lets go with twice or maximum three times as many as the global Kindred ratio within a Sabbat city. That's what they mentioned in the Revised corebook. And lets also not forget that a lot of those fatalities are never going to show up in the murder statistics. Many will simply be disappearances, some will be assigned other causes of death. Others won't be registered at all.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Malkavian87 View Post
            The concept of a kiss delirium is still not canon but a homerule. And one I don't care for. To me it seems to weaken one of the core concepts of Vampire. Feeding while keeping the masquerade (and your humanity) intact shouldn't be that easy. It's at all possible thanks to the extreme competence of vampires in general in covering their tracks.
            Try to look at it not so much as a delerium effect as an evolutionary tool in the vampire's arsenal that still requires skill to utilize.

            What I am proposing isn't a free pass for vampires to feed in secrecy.

            It's more like a logical extension of what vampires can already do in terms of hiding their feeding.

            A vampire can lick the wound closed to hide their feeding, for example... But they still have to actually do it. The wounds don't just close on their own.

            The Kiss's Paralytic effect prevents the vessel from struggling and overwhelms their senses with pleasure.

            It's established that the Kiss can hide feeding if the vampire applies it correctly - as in, the vessel may not even know they've been bitten because the sensation of the Kiss is overpowering.

            I'm suggesting that similarly, if a vampire approaches feeding with the intent of maximizing shock and confusion (striking swiftly, staying out of the vessel's vision as much as possible, fleeing quickly before the vessel has a chance to covalesce), the Kiss's disorienting, sensory-overloading effect can help create confusion.

            So in short, it's a skill in the same vein as learning to stalk your prey unseen, or get your fangs in quickly, or not take too much (or hide the body if you do).

            Not a blanket Delerium effect that lets vampires feed without consequences, more of a small effect that makes feeding without detection a little easier if tactically utilized, without disrupting the personal horror angle of having to become a skillful predator.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Malkavian87 View Post
              Lets go with twice or maximum three times as many as the global Kindred ratio within a Sabbat city. That's what they mentioned in the Revised corebook. And lets also not forget that a lot of those fatalities are never going to show up in the murder statistics. Many will simply be disappearances, some will be assigned other causes of death. Others won't be registered at all.
              It just seems weird that you seem to think literal mountains of corpses is more feasible than having forgetful prey survive even poorly executed Sabbat feedings.

              The latter makes far more sense to me.

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              • #37
                I'm just assuming when we talk about the V:tM setting in an online community like this the canon setting is the reference, not our homebrew versions. So I'm going by what is in the books. And across multiple iterations of V:tM canon I've never come across references of either the Kiss causing amnesia or Sabbat leaving vessels alive. Although the latter doesn't have to be impossible perse. But it would at least seem to be the exception, not the rule. So yeah, Sabbat cities are Caracas. And I guess the Revenant families have to spend considerable resources in dealing with Cainite feedings.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post

                  It just seems weird that you seem to think literal mountains of corpses is more feasible than having forgetful prey survive even poorly executed Sabbat feedings.
                  Not really sure the two are all that related.


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                  • #39
                    Sabbat aren't just about violence all the time. Certain Paths frown upon wastefulness of resources and needless death, and that can extend to protecting the mortals in your territory against excessive violence or feeding by other Kindred. Off the top of my head, I can think of the Path of Harmony that states ethics like that.


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                    • #40
                      But the Path of Harmony was destroyed in the Sabbat for being too "nice". The other Paths I think you refer to also specifically do not include Kine as counting unless it is to torment/kill/use them. For instance, Honorable Accord does not apply to Mortals, and versions of Night onlybworry about not killing Mortals if they can be made to suffer or be scarred instead. Death and the Soul only really cares about you not being able to study the death, not about refraining from killing, (which, off the top of my head I believe NOT killing someone is a Sin).

                      The Sabbat makes a big show about not being affraid of Mortals, not hiding from them like the Cam. One of their tactics is to feed pretty openly and leave the bodies behind, (to stretch the Masquerade), and force the Cam to deal with it.

                      The Sabbat generally feeds as a Pack, taking a mortal or two back to the pack who generally drains them dry, and sets up the scene to look like a mugging or fight or something. For the Sabbat, hunting is a nightly thing to help "keep them sharp" and exalt in being vampires.


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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Malkavian87 View Post
                        I'm just assuming when we talk about the V:tM setting in an online community like this the canon setting is the reference, not our homebrew versions. So I'm going by what is in the books. And across multiple iterations of V:tM canon I've never come across references of either the Kiss causing amnesia or Sabbat leaving vessels alive. Although the latter doesn't have to be impossible perse. But it would at least seem to be the exception, not the rule. So yeah, Sabbat cities are Caracas. And I guess the Revenant families have to spend considerable resources in dealing with Cainite feedings.

                        The Canon setting is that The Kiss makes things pleasurable and most Feeding isn't to the Death. The idea that the Sabbat is hiding more corpses than major plagues is laughable. Its not a matter of resources it a matter of manpower. This isn't even a matter of statistics 1 in 100 is going to be noticable without statistics, its also going ot hit certain parts of society disproportionately... as in Sabbat cities wouldn't have Homeless people with these numbers.

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                        • #42
                          On one hand, the Sabbat population is (I think), significantly less populated than the Camarilla, and also has a much, much shorter unlife expectancy overall.

                          They generally do as much as they can get away with, and do not put a great deal of effort into covering their tracks. That does not mean no effort, just less compared to just about anyone else. If they kill a family in their home, they might spend an extra ten minutes setting up the scene to look like satanic ritual murder or a home invasion gone bad. Or just torch the house to get rid of the evidence. Roughly half the Sabbat in any given area are just passing through, and have a tendency to cause trouble and leave it for others to fix, (Sabbat or Cam) as they move on.

                          Also don't forget that the Sabbat has a tendency to kidnap like 20 people over a few nights, Shovelhead them, and for those that make it out of the pit, one of the first things the Pack does is unleash them on their mortal friends and family to tank their Humanity as they Frenzy.

                          That is A LOT of bodies. As much as they try to act like they are so different, the Sabbat does have Ghouls, and also Revenants that are just there to cover up this sort of stuff. They also really rely on the Camarilla to do so as well. Everytime they push the Masquerade, they know that the Cam will be forced to cover it up, which means that the Cam is dividing their resorces and time, which means they are weakened. But, the truth is, for all their posturing, for all their ideals that Cainites are above Mortals and don't care, the Sabbat is not stupid, and still understands that some Masquerade is needed, and that Mortals, as a whole, will F them up in a straight up war. Period. End of story. Sabbat that do not get this do not last long. The world is not ready for Cainites to rule as they believe and want, and so some amount of hidding is required. They will tell you it is not the Masquerade, and they are not weak like the Camarilla to hide from Mortals, but that is exactly what it is. The Sabbat just is much more willing to murder Mortals instead of cloud their minds or work with mortal institutions to cover things up, because violence is easier and faster, and those that can't hack it don't deserve their Blood.


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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                            But the Path of Harmony was destroyed in the Sabbat for being too "nice".
                            To be fair, the Path of the Beast as a whole is anti-"wasteful killing." It wasn't just the Harmony branch that did that.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                              On one hand, the Sabbat population is (I think), significantly less populated than the Camarilla, and also has a much, much shorter unlife expectancy overall.
                              Other way around. Sabbat have a higher Kindred to human ratio per territory though they might hold fewer cities. Its all because there's less control involved. Same issue with Anarchs.

                              They generally do as much as they can get away with, and do not put a great deal of effort into covering their tracks. That does not mean no effort, just less compared to just about anyone else. If they kill a family in their home, they might spend an extra ten minutes setting up the scene to look like satanic ritual murder or a home invasion gone bad. Or just torch the house to get rid of the evidence. Roughly half the Sabbat in any given area are just passing through, and have a tendency to cause trouble and leave it for others to fix, (Sabbat or Cam) as they move on.
                              Herds and Mind control are easy. Especially for PACKS. Camarillans generally have to care about private feeding. Your "no dominate" Sabbaty can just ask a member of.. the most common clan in the sabbat who might will likely be his pack mate to cover shit.

                              Also don't forget that the Sabbat has a tendency to kidnap like 20 people over a few nights, Shovelhead them, and for those that make it out of the pit, one of the first things the Pack does is unleash them on their mortal friends and family to tank their Humanity as they Frenzy.
                              And something they only do.. when they are shitting in the Camarilla's domain. The whole point of it is that it forces the Cam to split resources. They don't generally do this shit



                              That is A LOT of bodies. As much as they try to act like they are so different, the Sabbat does have Ghouls, and also Revenants that are just there to cover up this sort of stuff. They also really rely on the Camarilla to do so as well. Everytime they push the Masquerade, they know that the Cam will be forced to cover it up, which means that the Cam is dividing their resorces and time, which means they are weakened. But, the truth is, for all their posturing, for all their ideals that Cainites are above Mortals and don't care, the Sabbat is not stupid, and still understands that some Masquerade is needed, and that Mortals, as a whole, will F them up in a straight up war. Period. End of story. Sabbat that do not get this do not last long. The world is not ready for Cainites to rule as they believe and want, and so some amount of hidding is required. They will tell you it is not the Masquerade, and they are not weak like the Camarilla to hide from Mortals, but that is exactly what it is. The Sabbat just is much more willing to murder Mortals instead of cloud their minds or work with mortal institutions to cover things up, because violence is easier and faster, and those that can't hack it don't deserve their Blood.
                              There's more to it than that, most of the paths push for some level of Silence of the Blood. Honestly its pragmatically true, watch real life predatory animals, the Lion doesn't walk up and beat the shit out of the zebra, the Lion sneaks. That's what the silence of the blood is, it makes EVERYTHING easier for everybody. Sabbat members who get too heavy about violence.. well they fuck it up for everyone. They make the easy prey more wary. They attract hunters. Sure there are times violence is the go to, but even the sabbat finds it just makes it harder work.. and that pack who goes to it for everything? Well.. Violence begets violence as they say..

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Lian View Post
                                Other way around. Sabbat have a higher Kindred to human ratio per territory though they might hold fewer cities. Its all because there's less control involved. Same issue with Anarchs.
                                They are, but not world wide.


                                Originally posted by Lian View Post
                                Herds and Mind control are easy. Especially for PACKS. Camarillans generally have to care about private feeding. Your "no dominate" Sabbaty can just ask a member of.. the most common clan in the sabbat who might will likely be his pack mate to cover shit.
                                Yes, sort of. The Sabbat frowns on Herds in general, as they do not like being indebted to Mortals. And things like Dominate can work, but tend to be unreliable and require some time and investment.

                                Originally posted by Lian View Post
                                And something they only do.. when they are shitting in the Camarilla's domain. The whole point of it is that it forces the Cam to split resources. They don't generally do this shit.
                                Maybe not that specifically, (though frequency is debatable), but a great deal of their practices are very bloody. It is pretty SOP that all new Cainites are made to Frenzy and slaughter their nearest and dearest, specifically so that new Sabbat members will shred their Humanity and loose all mortal attachments, even if they are not yet "true" Sabbat.

                                Originally posted by Lian View Post
                                There's more to it than that, most of the paths push for some level of Silence of the Blood. Honestly its pragmatically true, watch real life predatory animals, the Lion doesn't walk up and beat the shit out of the zebra, the Lion sneaks. That's what the silence of the blood is, it makes EVERYTHING easier for everybody. Sabbat members who get too heavy about violence.. well they fuck it up for everyone. They make the easy prey more wary. They attract hunters. Sure there are times violence is the go to, but even the sabbat finds it just makes it harder work.. and that pack who goes to it for everything? Well.. Violence begets violence as they say..
                                To a degree, but remember, the entire point of the Sect is to revel in being a Cainite. And that is also one of the biggest reasons for the divides between Elders and firebrands of the Sabbat, as well as local and roaming packs. It is very difficult for a Sabbat to tell another Sabbat "No, you can't do that", because Freedom. If you can get away with it, you can do it, and roaming packs generally don't have to worry about the aftermath. And most likely, the next time they come to town, anyone that might have had beef is dead and gone or the members of the Pack have changed. One of the Sabbat's worst enemies is itself.


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