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  • #46
    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    The Canon setting is that The Kiss makes things pleasurable
    Agreed, no mention of mind-wipes, amnesia or delirium effects.

    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    and most Feeding isn't to the Death.
    Using the default Camarilla setting yes. But we're still talking about Sabbat right? How many mentions or instances in V:tM sourcebooks and fiction can you find of Sabbat leaving their vessels alive?

    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    The idea that the Sabbat is hiding more corpses than major plagues is laughable.
    Agreed! A major plague was the Black Death that killed between 30 to 60 % of Europe's population from 1346 to 1353. So lets see how this measures up to a Sabbat city of 1 million kine. Going with the Sabbat maximum mentioned in the Revised corebook of triple the global Kindred ratio that gives us 30 Cainites. Lets say each consumes an average of 3 BP a night as Cifer suggested. That's 32850 BP per year, 3285 corpses. 22995 corpses in 7 years, which is only 2.3 percent. Considering the yearly global death rate is 0,7, the corpses aren't exactly piling up like in Medieval Europe. The Revenant families can handle this.
    So yeah the most populous and well fed of Sabbat cities is not even triple Caracas murder rate. Official murder rate that is. Cause I think we can all agree plenty of homicides go unreported in places like that.

    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    its also going ot hit certain parts of society disproportionately... as in Sabbat cities wouldn't have Homeless people with these numbers.
    I think the economy would be bad enough to supply a new crop in short order. But yeah long term homeless probably have some sort of supernatural protection watching over them. Maybe simply being some Cainite's pet ghoul or something from the other game lines.

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    • #47
      Much like humans who don't cook up a big Christmas feast every night of the week, hand crushing cranberries and basting a 20lb turkey for hours on end, most Sabbat are unlikely to live every single night like it's a cut scene straight out of "30 Days of Night".

      Never underestimate the likelihood of people being lazy and following the path of least resistance. Sure, the complex murder scenes and bizarre rituals are part of sect culture, but complex atrocities take a long time... sometimes hours of planning and effort. Vampires, as an obligate nocturnal species, already have half as much time for extracurricular activities as the humans. If a Sabbat vampire wants to do other things (like flesh crafting a turtle into a walking coffee table, pondering the abyss, or just buying a new leather jacket) they likely opt for the quickest and simplest feeding methods available to them.
      • Why don't they kill their prey each time? For the same reason I don't walk into a Burger King, grab someone else's meal from their table, and eat it as I saunter out. I could do that, of course. (Or, at least I could try.) But why? Just buy the food, and get on with life. It's easier.
      • The two most populous clans of the Sabbat both have clan disciplines which make "buying some fast food" laughably easy. Tzimisce have Animalism to summon food to the table, and Vicissitude to raise their Appearance for working Grindr and the local pick-up bar. The Lasombra, meanwhile, have Dominate (for hypnotic mind rape feeding), Potence (for easy snatch and grabs of even difficult prey like cattle, or armed humans), and Obtenebration (which makes them possibly the clan most capable at feeding on the sleeping.) Given the Vaulderie, and the tendency for packs to share disciplines it seems reasonable that any new True Sabbat would learn some easy feeding methods, even if not as an in-clan discipline.
      • Sabbat also have the option of simply buying blood. I occasionally shop at a large Asian grocery store near my home, and in the frozen food section (next to the red bean steamed buns, one of my favorite vices) they sell buckets of blood. They have cow and pig, both at around five bucks a gallon, iirc. Not the yummiest option, but it's definitely the simplest. My local butcher also offers the contents of the drain trays that gather blood and meat bits under their saws. I'm not sure how much, but I think they just give it to regulars who ask for it. (People who fish for shark use it to chum the waters.)
      • Of course, buying blood involves dealing with icky humans, so just taking it directly from the barn might be more palatable. PDF
      • As for those times when body disposal is necessary, that's built into the vampiric toolkit. Drain a human completely. Feed the victim a bit of blood. Stake the fledgling. Leave your leftovers outside for the sun. Just a pile of ashes, not a pile of bodies.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
        Vampires, as an obligate nocturnal species, already have half as much time for extracurricular activities as the humans. If a Sabbat vampire wants to do other things (like flesh crafting a turtle into a walking coffee table, pondering the abyss, or just buying a new leather jacket) they likely opt for the quickest and simplest feeding methods available to them.

        Why don't they kill their prey each time? For the same reason I don't walk into a Burger King, grab someone else's meal from their table, and eat it as I saunter out. I could do that, of course. (Or, at least I could try.) But why? Just buy the food, and get on with life. It's easier.
        A human can only spare 2 of his 10 BP without endangering him. So I don't see how feeding 5 times instead of 1 time for the same amount of blood is ever going to be easier.
        Last edited by Malkavian87; 01-13-2018, 02:37 PM.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Malkavian87 View Post

          A human can only spare 2 of his 10 BP without endangering him. So I don't see how feeding 5 times instead of 1 time for the same amount of blood is ever going to be easier.
          Simply because those 5 times leave no evidence behind aside from rather faint anemic symptoms. The Kiss paralyzes victim with waves of pleasure and due to licking the wound shut there will be no sign, or feeling, of a bite.

          Even when just overpowering someone from behind the Cainite leaves no evidence of bite. Instead the embrace even if forcefully gained was pleasurable beyond all reason.

          So no amnesia effect but also nothing that would suggest bitingor harm in anyway, just paralyzing pleasure followed by weak knees and slight dizzyness. The rest is in the hands of the human mind trying to come with what just happened. Some might try to, as a defense mechanism, forget the pleasure and remember only being assaulted and someone else might only, again as a coping mechanism, unconsciously deny the assault and remember only the pleasure. Not as a mechanism of the Kiss but as that of the human psyche.

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          • #50
            Such a mechanism would only work if the context was right. Like during love making or when the victim is already intoxicated. If you just sink your fangs into a conscious levelheaded person you grabbed of the street they're going to be aware and stay aware that something very strange just happened. Anything more than that and its again adding a mindcontrol power to the Kiss that is definitely not in the books.

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            • #51
              I'd suggest if I was a vampire deliberately creating Reverants to feed from, Reverant farms, Reverants never lose the ability to feed on animals, and I think even high BP vampires can drink their vitae, they don't risk death like a mortal from being feed upon.

              The key is figuring out how to drain the vitae before the Reverants lose it.

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              • #52
                Granted, that only takes a few hundred years of pretty intense dedication, (there are about 10 in history).

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Malkavian87 View Post
                  Such a mechanism would only work if the context was right. Like during love making or when the victim is already intoxicated. If you just sink your fangs into a conscious levelheaded person you grabbed of the street they're going to be aware and stay aware that something very strange just happened. Anything more than that and its again adding a mindcontrol power to the Kiss that is definitely not in the books.
                  It is not adding mind control powers to anything. Human mind seeks to make sense of things and when someone graps you violently from behind and all you feel is pleasure, you do not feel the pain of the fangs or know of them unless you actually see them, and dizzyness afterwards where does your mind race? To Vampires which do not exists? Or does a reasonable person seek to see reason in an unreasonable situation. Some people cope with odd things happening by denial, whether of the assault or the pleasure, and some accept something strange happening but nothing here will point a normal reasonable mind to call vampire unless they have previous experience or reason to think so. That is all that I mean. Like I said on my previous post it is not a function, or a power, of the Kiss but a coping mechanism of the human psyche.

                  The point here being like you said ”they will be aware of something very strange just happened” they will not without a very good reason attribute it to the supernatural. And nothing in that will cause them to immediately think of Vampires.

                  So the thing here is there need not be any mind control effects at work only a break in cause and effect that the mind rallies to comprehend and will after some time explain it in the most simple way it can.
                  Last edited by Possessed; 01-13-2018, 08:08 PM. Reason: Typo

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Malkavian87 View Post
                    Such a mechanism would only work if the context was right. Like during love making or when the victim is already intoxicated. If you just sink your fangs into a conscious levelheaded person you grabbed of the street they're going to be aware and stay aware that something very strange just happened. Anything more than that and its again adding a mindcontrol power to the Kiss that is definitely not in the books.
                    Three points:

                    1.) V20, pg. 9, calls the Kiss "Intoxicating." Even if we assume the term is used poetically (which is what I believe they intended), it still carries the connotation of "loss of faculties."

                    2.) In real life. rapid blood loss can cause confusion (or even full blown delirium in extreme cases). In game terms (if we extrapolate from real life), confusion would potentially occur when 3 or 4 blood points are taken from a mortal, but keep in mind that factors like how quickly the blood is lost, how healthy a person is, and other conditions can all affect when symptoms occur at various levels of lost blood volume.

                    While it's not the letter of the rules, it's reasonable to assume that 2 or 3 blood points taken in the span of 3 seconds could potentially result in disorientation.

                    3.) The rules aren't suggesting that the Kiss has hypnotic sex powers per se (in fact, V20 has no rules specifically for feeding during sex, just fluff that says it's possible). Rather they're saying that because the Kiss induces pleasure, it can reasonably be obscured as part of a sexual act.

                    So I wouldn't say that it's necessarily house-ruling to say that a vampire could use the disorientation of violence, blood loss, and the sudden, overwhelming sensory effect of the Kiss to hide their feeding behind the assault.

                    Again, this isn't to say a vampire can walk up to someone on the street and just artlessly pull them into an alleyway and bite their neck without having a mess to clean up one way or the other.

                    But likewise, a vampire who just straight-up bites someone during sex isn't going to magically be able to walk away from the situation without any explanation, or the use of Dominate to wipe the mind of their vessel.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Malkavian87 View Post
                      Agreed, no mention of mind-wipes, amnesia or delirium effects.
                      Its litterally described as "Intoxicating" so if its only as effective as "getting Drunk" then yes that's all you need period.


                      Using the default Camarilla setting yes. But we're still talking about Sabbat right? How many mentions or instances in V:tM sourcebooks and fiction can you find of Sabbat leaving their vessels alive?
                      How many times in fiction can you find "Average vampire day" vs "exciting special occasion!" because you're trying to extrapolate Sabbat average Night life from the equivalent of 24.


                      Agreed! A major plague was the Black Death that killed between 30 to 60 % of Europe's population from 1346 to 1353. So lets see how this measures up to a Sabbat city of 1 million kine. Going with the Sabbat maximum mentioned in the Revised corebook of triple the global Kindred ratio that gives us 30 Cainites. Lets say each consumes an average of 3 BP a night as Cifer suggested. That's 32850 BP per year, 3285 corpses. 22995 corpses in 7 years, which is only 2.3 percent. Considering the yearly global death rate is 0,7, the corpses aren't exactly piling up like in Medieval Europe. The Revenant families can handle this.
                      So yeah the most populous and well fed of Sabbat cities is not even triple Caracas murder rate. Official murder rate that is. Cause I think we can all agree plenty of homicides go unreported in places like that.
                      No, no they can't. The Black Plague is the most extreme but a regular 2 percent drop hit generally by the poor would be noticeable. The WOD hasn't removed all other forms of murder.... or death you'd just make death by Sabbat as common as someone dying of cancer. It wouldnt' be covered in a mass of other murders all murders


                      I think the economy would be bad enough to supply a new crop in short order. But yeah long term homeless probably have some sort of supernatural protection watching over them. Maybe simply being some Cainite's pet ghoul or something from the other game lines.
                      If sabbat cities are autodeath for the homeless you'd have people.. notice in 1 year 1 in 5 homeless people would get killed. Then.. as they lack homes they'd obviously try to leave so this is going to cut into the number. So those who can just leave will. Those can't will die. This will keep the number from Replenishing.. unless yeah each and every Homeless group is watched over by werewolves or something..

                      Which would be fucking hilarious "YOu can't eat the HOmeless or werewolves will kill you!" but you know not something generally that comes up in the setting that much.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Malkavian87 View Post
                        I'm just assuming when we talk about the V:tM setting in an online community like this the canon setting is the reference, not our homebrew versions. So I'm going by what is in the books. And across multiple iterations of V:tM canon I've never come across references of either the Kiss causing amnesia or Sabbat leaving vessels alive. Although the latter doesn't have to be impossible perse. But it would at least seem to be the exception, not the rule. So yeah, Sabbat cities are Caracas. And I guess the Revenant families have to spend considerable resources in dealing with Cainite feedings.
                        1) Feeding past satiation and Thoughtless killing is a level 2 Humanity sin, likely to drop sabbat members pretty quickly if they do it regularly

                        2) Core rules state (V20 p259) the whole hunt takes about an hour; find a suitable target and drink

                        The rules say that the entire feeding scene takes on hour to successfully feed from someone for 1-2 blood points with no noticable effect.

                        Now, the rules may not say it gives amnesia or other forgetfullness, but it only has a vampire having an issue on a botch. So whether they forget or don't care, or vampires are subtle enough for it not to notice: it doesn't matter; it's very rarely an issue

                        Statistically - Lets give a terrible feeder 5 dice on their preferred feeding method Odds on botching;
                        1.84% at dif 4 (Fail 4.09%) Slums/The Rack
                        3.14% at dif 5 (Fail 6.72%) Lower income/Bohemian
                        5.17% at dif 6 (Fail 10.42%) Downtown Business District
                        8.24% at dif 7 (Fail 15.53%) Suburb
                        12.74% at dif 8 (Fail 22.36%) Heavily Patrolled Area

                        If you're feeding in the rack you will cause a problem on average every 54 feedings where someone might see you/remember something or otherwise have give you a difficult time because of feeding. You still then have your vampiric powers to help deal with that issue.
                        If you feed the bare minimum and hunt every 2 nights for 2 blood. There are 7 difficult hunts you have in a year.

                        Add a point of Domain, Fame or Herd and it gets much easier too, or practice some skills or attributes for your preferred hunting style.
                        Last edited by Illithid; 01-15-2018, 01:01 AM. Reason: Added descriptions of difficulty

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Malkavian87 View Post


                          Lets say each consumes an average of 3 BP a night as Cifer suggested. That's 32850 BP per year, 3285 corpses. 22995 corpses in 7 years, which is only 2.3 percent. Considering the yearly global death rate is 0,7, the corpses aren't exactly piling up like in Medieval Europe. The Revenant families can handle this.


                          America in the Civil War and Britain in World War One suffered 2% casualties. 2% is society shattering levels of excess mortality. There is no way in hell that shit can be covered up.
                          Last edited by Alucard; 01-15-2018, 05:33 AM.

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                          • #58
                            So are Sabbat cities like Montreal and Mexico City just totally overrun with widespread unexplained death? Are they horror shows to visit and/or live in?
                            Or are they normally functioning cities with an otherwise unknown vampire population?

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                            • #59
                              Sabbat cities have often been described in the books as being urban hellholes. Although it's supposed to be less overt in European Sabbat cities.

                              Originally posted by Alucard View Post
                              America in the Civil War and Britain in World War One suffered 2% casualties. 2% is society shattering levels of excess mortality. There is no way in hell that shit can be covered up.
                              Both conflicts lasted considerably less than 7 years to get to that 2%. And they had the added problem of almost exclusively killing off men in their youth or prime. Which is far more destabilizing than an indiscriminate cause of death.
                              Also remember that vampires aren't excess mortality in this case. They've always been out there feeding.
                              Last edited by Malkavian87; 01-15-2018, 12:33 PM.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Lian View Post
                                Its litterally described as "Intoxicating" so if its only as effective as "getting Drunk" then yes that's all you need period.
                                That just means they're less alert, more compliant. Your mileage may vary, but simply getting drunk is generally not synonymous but blackouts or heavily distorted memories.

                                Originally posted by Lian View Post
                                How many times in fiction can you find "Average vampire day" vs "exciting special occasion!" because you're trying to extrapolate Sabbat average Night life from the equivalent of 24.
                                It's a game about vampires, that's generally the exciting special aspect of V:tM. Most sourcebooks are about how Kindred society normally works. And then there's the fact that in literature you generally first set up how the status quo is before you have exciting special events happen. So that the reader can tell that it's something special.

                                Originally posted by Lian View Post
                                No, no they can't. The Black Plague is the most extreme but a regular 2 percent drop hit generally by the poor would be noticeable. The WOD hasn't removed all other forms of murder.... or death you'd just make death by Sabbat as common as someone dying of cancer. It wouldnt' be covered in a mass of other murders all murders
                                Lots of Sabbat kills would never show up in the murder statistics. The authorities in such a city would be quite jaded and corrupt probably. With a few under Cainite influence too of course.
                                Many deaths wouldn't be even reported disappearances. As I mentioned in one of my first posts big communal feedings would be supplied with truckloads of people that wouldn't be missed. Probably a lot of out of towners like fresh of the boat (illegal) immigrants.

                                Originally posted by Lian View Post
                                If sabbat cities are autodeath for the homeless you'd have people.. notice in 1 year 1 in 5 homeless people would get killed. Then.. as they lack homes they'd obviously try to leave so this is going to cut into the number. So those who can just leave will.
                                Or they simply assume a lot of those vanished homeless were able to leave. Which might not always be possible for themselves. It's difficult to move around a lot when you're this poor. (And in the WoD probably just as dangerous.) Plenty of deadly hellholes in the real world where most of its poor stick around.

                                Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                                Feeding past satiation and Thoughtless killing is a level 2 Humanity sin, likely to drop sabbat members pretty quickly if they do it regularly
                                Not that Humanity is all that valued by the average Sabbat Cainite. But since they're pack creatures, we can assume many of their feedings are going to be communal. In this case they will only have 2 or 3 BP each. But still have the bonus of only requiring 1 hunt instead of 5. Probably with the priest making it some sort of rite while they're at it.

                                Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                                Core rules state (V20 p259) the whole hunt takes about an hour; find a suitable target and drink
                                To me that just means a vampire PC is very good at being a vampire. I can think of a lot of strategies that would viable for the average vampire to feed within an hour without the need for a suped up kiss.
                                Last edited by Malkavian87; 01-15-2018, 07:54 AM.

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