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What's up with V20 wolves?

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  • What's up with V20 wolves?

    Compared to Large Dogs:
    •Lower Attributes
    •Fewer, and lower, Abilities
    •Lower Willpower
    •Fewer Health Levels
    •Lower Bite damage

    •Equal Claw damage (How is a dog/wolf clawing for as much as a big cat at 4 dice?? That's insane...)
    •Equal Blood Pool of 2

    •Dog has an extra "1 up" in that it gets a free Speciality [Tracking] at Survival 3, which even breaks the rules (Specialities kick in at 4 or higher).


    How... how did this happen? Did the author of these stats just hate wolves and want to stick it to them in the only way they could? No way a German Shepherd or Great Dane is the physical superior of a true Wolf. No way, man.

  • #2
    Large dogs includes dogs that are bigger and more powerful than a Wolf, like the bullmastiff,the kangal, the irish wolfhound, the caucasian sheperd, the aksarai and so on.

    Besides not every Wolf is a Gray Wolf: eastern wolves and Red wolves are considerably smaller.

    When a wolf meet a kangal dog, the wolf is a dead wolf
    Edited by moderator for needlessly graphic image. Darksider


    There are large breeds that have been created specifically to kill wolves. The Central asian sheperd dog was called volkodan, which means "Wolf crusher".





    This "thing" is a Tibetan Mastiff, which has not been bred to fight wolves, it has been bred to fight bears and tigers.
    Average gray wolf weights 38 kg, average Tibetan Mastiff weights no less of 55.

    Last edited by Darksider; 01-13-2018, 05:59 AM.

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    • #3
      Irish Wolfhound? What could those possibly be for...

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      • #4
        Even dog breeds that are bred for wolf hunting/killing don't do so on their own - they do it in packs.
        They're also very rare breeds. The book mentions dogs such as German Shepherds and Great Danes as "big dogs." These are not dogs that will win against a wolf.

        As for red wolves and the like, I find it hard to believe that the author(s) meant anything but the larger, meaner, more famous breeds of wolf. When one says "wolf" one thing prominently comes to mind; typically a variety of grey wolf. When one says "dog" it's much less clear what is meant, so there's more categories (small, med, large) for dogs. I could totally be wrong on this but I'd be shocked if I was. :P

        Tibetan Mastiff
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00-qzgN8D6M

        Irish Wolfhound
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NSqiZqqljU

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        • #5
          Wolves aren't exactly loners themselves. Usually why you bring more than one dog. You're less likely to lose a dog that way too, and training and raising them is an investment.

          I think you're severely underestimating how dangerous dogs can be. A German shepherd isnt a puny dog, police use them extensively and a k9 dog is more than capable of taking down a 200lb man and ripping out his throat. Domestic dogs are usually docile because they're conditioned that way. Fighting dogs and wild dogs are not to be messed with.

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          • #6
            In addition to what others have said, you have to factor in the mental state of these animals. A large dog will definitely be able to overpower a wolf, but it's unlikely to be inclined do so in most circumstances. Dogs that are trained to hurt things are going to be healthier and stronger than a wild animal that only kills to eat. Wolves in captivity are usually much healthier physically than those in the wild.

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            • #7
              I think everyone is really underestimating wolves, lol.
              But even if you consider that the biggest meanest dogs are on par with wolves (which even then they usually aren't, as the bite strength of a wolf is huge and domestication takes a ton of the edge off), go back to the stat differences above; dogs are better in basically every way.

              (And taking down a human really isn't a big deal. We're not predators, we're clever pattern-recognizers. We top the food chain, but not because it's hard to bring us down with fang and claw, lol.)

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Schwann145 View Post
                I think everyone is really underestimating wolves, lol.
                But even if you consider that the biggest meanest dogs are on par with wolves (which even then they usually aren't, as the bite strength of a wolf is huge and domestication takes a ton of the edge off), go back to the stat differences above; dogs are better in basically every way.

                (And taking down a human really isn't a big deal. We're not predators, we're clever pattern-recognizers. We top the food chain, but not because it's hard to bring us down with fang and claw, lol.)
                Domestication takes the edge off? What do you think we domesticated wolves for? On the contrary: Breeding has always been about emphasizing traits we humans wanted in our animals. With dairy cows, that means a milk production utterly (udderly?) unthinkable for feral bovines. With dogs bred and trained for combat, that means stronger muscles, fiercer teeth and so on (plus loyalty to the handler, because you certainly don't want those dogs to mess with you).

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                • #9
                  Really, the point of having a stat block for "Large Dog" is not to replicate someone's pet hound. It's for running the kinds of dog that a vampire would actually get into a fight with.

                  You know, trained guard dogs or police canines.

                  Of course a common pet will be less potent than a wolf in the wild. But a dog that has been bred, trained, and conditioned for fighting is going to outclass that wild wolf. THAT is what we're talking about.

                  (And, again, we're talking about one(1) Large Dog versus one(1) Wolf. In a one on one fight, the Large Dog wins, as shown in the above images. It's more or less the same thing if we're talking about matching up a pack of wolves against an equal number of large dogs. All other things being equal, the Large Dogs win.)


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                  • #10
                    So, we have an argument about which should have superior stats: an opportunistic and ridiculously risk-averse pack hunter adapted primarily for surviving harsh climates...or domesticated animals bred from those pack hunters, artificially selected not for survival but for effectiveness in fighting and killing.

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                    • #11
                      What's up is that those stats are from an early player's guide and haven't changed since the early 90s. Understandings of the animals described have tended to change with the march of comparative cognition at the very least, though that primarily means that you'd want to shift some Abilities around, buff them, add on Social Attributes, and boost Mental ones.

                      Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                      Really, the point of having a stat block for "Large Dog" is not to replicate someone's pet hound. It's for running the kinds of dog that a vampire would actually get into a fight with.

                      You know, trained guard dogs or police canines.

                      Of course a common pet will be less potent than a wolf in the wild. But a dog that has been bred, trained, and conditioned for fighting is going to outclass that wild wolf. THAT is what we're talking about.

                      (And, again, we're talking about one(1) Large Dog versus one(1) Wolf. In a one on one fight, the Large Dog wins, as shown in the above images. It's more or less the same thing if we're talking about matching up a pack of wolves against an equal number of large dogs. All other things being equal, the Large Dogs win.)
                      I would reject the notion that the ex-wolves pictured above necessarily faced anything on equal terms, since that was, what, typically part of a concerted hunt with armed humans backing them up? Not exactly a level playing ground.

                      (Even with the stat differences presented as they are, an extra die or two is a tough but not nearly insurmountable challenge.)

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                        Really, the point of having a stat block for "Large Dog" is not to replicate someone's pet hound. It's for running the kinds of dog that a vampire would actually get into a fight with.
                        That, and the type of dog (so-inclined and able) vampires will prefer to breed and ghoul. You could make a joke about a Toreador with Animalism, or Inoffensive to Animals, having a purse dog, but that's going to be such an outside-the-park exception as to not be worth further discussion.

                        If I were a Gangrel, a pair of attention-attracting wolves aren't going to be high on my priority list to ghoul. A couple chock-full-o-blood and Potence-fueled mastiffs, on the other hand, are going to be grade-A Retainer material.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Theodrim View Post
                          So, we have an argument about which should have superior stats: an opportunistic and ridiculously risk-averse pack hunter adapted primarily for surviving harsh climates...or domesticated animals bred from those pack hunters, artificially selected not for survival but for effectiveness in fighting and killing.
                          An example of the kind of dog you mention here is the Irish Wolfhound. Bred specifically (originally, at least) for hunting and killing wolves. Yet, one on one, the Wolfhound would need either help or luck to actually take out the wolves it's been bred for.
                          Wolf-hunting dogs were pack hunters let by armed humans. Wolves had no human support and regularly made things like bull moose part of their diet.

                          As for ghouled dogs; well duh, they are ferocious no matter what breed you start with - it's a ghoul, lol.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
                            Large dogs includes dogs that are bigger and more powerful than a Wolf, like the bullmastiff,the kangal, the irish wolfhound, the caucasian sheperd, the aksarai and so on.

                            Besides not every Wolf is a Gray Wolf: eastern wolves and Red wolves are considerably smaller.

                            When a wolf meet a kangal dog, the wolf is a dead wolf



                            There are large breeds that have been created specifically to kill wolves. The Central asian sheperd dog was called volkodan, which means "Wolf crusher".





                            This "thing" is a Tibetan Mastiff, which has not been bred to fight wolves, it has been bred to fight bears and tigers.
                            Average gray wolf weights 38 kg, average Tibetan Mastiff weights no less of 55.

                            Wolves vary in size too you know. In the Yukon-Charley Rivers National Preserve males average 50.3 kg (111 pounds). I'd favor a healthy wolf that size against any dog.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Alucard View Post

                              Wolves vary in size too you know. In the Yukon-Charley Rivers National Preserve males average 50.3 kg (111 pounds). I'd favor a healthy wolf that size against any dog.
                              I wouldn't. Against most dogs maybe but not the ones human bred for fighting wolves and other large animals. With the right training they wipe the floor with any wolves in a one on one situation.

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