Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ur-Shulgi as the Unnamed Baali

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Ur-Shulgi as the Unnamed Baali

    Now, we pretty much know about Moloch and Nergal right? Their history is told in many source, the Baali clanbook above all.

    Now, I was reading the Storyteller handbook, and some words seemed...familiar....



    From the Storyteller handbook, describing Ba'al the Destroyer, the Shaitan

    In the earliest times, or so it is believed, one of the First
    Brood stood against the Thirteen. This fiendish traitor –
    eldest childe of an Antediluvian's errant dalliance, lowborn
    singing slave boy to a proto-Mesopotamian people, forged an
    unholy pact with those who dwelt in shadow outside the
    periphery of this world. In so doing, the devil-child took on
    something of the place Beyond, becoming something more –
    and less – than human. Gathering apostles from the ranks of
    his brethren, the first shaitan of Baal-called-Destroyer
    marshaled his armies and laid siege to the Second City;
    Blood met Blood as Caine's childer fought one another
    amidst razed ruins and flame-swept plains.
    At length, it is whispered, the progenitor himself turned his
    attention to the fray – a terrible cataclysmic time in which the
    skies rained fire and wept blood. The battle ended as
    abruptly as it had begun; the 12 al'shaitani were put to death,
    and their demonic hordes were routed. Of the boy-thing,
    however, there was no sign, and the horrors that had once
    paid fealty to his every command were lost to the whispering
    winds of legend.

    This is the text about Ur-Shulg that was not published in the Assamite Clanbook

    You already know about the Baali Wars, and about the Second City, and the parables of how the Ancestor made the warriors to serve as the world's first police, and how the sorcerers were made as demon hunters because the Ancestor did not trust Saulot.
    The problem, at least before the sorcerers came along, was that the Baali and all their cultist followers were too disorganized for the warriors and the first sorcerers to strike at. It was like trying to fight a swarm of wasps. So the Ancestor gave them something to unify them.
    He found someone who was born with a soul already destined for corruption — a ten-year-old shepherd — and Embraced that child. Then Haqim took his childe to the pit that Saulot said had spawned the Baali and he threw that shepherd into it. And the blood of the Ancestor and the power of that soul turned that child into the leader that the Baali needed.
    When the Baali assaulted the Second City en masse, the Ancestor was off on one of his mysterious disappearances. He made it back just in time to stop his childe and tear the demon out of the body that it rode, and when the battle was over he claimed that he had found the child dying on the battlefield and the Embrace was the only way to save that innocent victim.
    Then he watched the child to make sure that it was safe to have around. I guess he did not watch long enough. Some sort of spiritual seed stayed in the child, and that soul was never truly clean anyway, no matter what the Ancestor did. And it woke up last year, and now it is the Eldest. It is not Baali, and it is not possessed, and we do not think it is not working with or for anything infernal, but it is a case where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and it is not one of Haqim's Children any more, not really. It is something more, and it is something less.

    From the first text
    In so doing, the devil-child took on
    something of the place Beyond, becoming something more –
    and less – than human.
    From the second one

    it is not possessed, and we do not think it is not working with or for anything infernal, but it is a case where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and it is not one of Haqim's Children any more, not really. It is something more, and it is something less.

    In the first text it is said about the battle, from which Ur-Shulgi emerged that

    blood met Blood as Caine's childer fought one another
    amidst razed ruins and flame-swept plains.
    At length, it is whispered, the progenitor himself turned his
    attention to the fray – a terrible cataclysmic time in which the
    skies rained fire and wept blood
    .
    In Children of the Night, for the Embrace of Ur-Shulgi it says
    lThe night when the stones spoke and the skies cried a blood rain


    Besides, if you read the Dark Ages Companion, pages 170-171, there are some interesting lines. The book doesn't speak of three baali founders, but only of one, and put the baali origin at the time of the first city, but oral tradtion can mess things up.


    Now If you compare ithese pages with the Baali clanbook, you can see that the chapter "The Fall" tells the same story of the Clanbook baali chapter named "Moloch and the Orphaned", the chapter the "Great war" tells the story of the Baali chapter "Shaitan, the Great deceiver" which tells the history of Nergal.
    But the most interesting piece is "The First war, in the Dark ages companion: the story doesn't fit with anything in the baal clanbook

    The First War
    In the great war that shattered the First City and cast down the Second Generatio, Shaitan was one of the most wrathful of his generation. He gathered the dissatisfied of the other clans to his banner and laid siege to the Temple if Caine itself at the hearh of Enoch. Cursing all the gods he once worshipped, he called on the powers of darkness to give him, streenght; then




    Caine raised his hand and struck Shaitan, and his hair fell from his head, his eyes burned in his sockets and his skin itched with sores. Caine raised his and and struck Shaitan a second time, and his bones twisted an broke and he could no longer stand. Caine raised his and struck Shaitan one final time, and all his power left him. Then Caine walked away, never to be seen again by his childer until the night of Gehenna, wehn all secrets will be revealed.
    Now this story is just the same of the previous two. The content is the same, the word also are very similar


    blood met Blood as Caine's childer fought one another
    amidst razed ruins and flame-swept plains.
    At length, it is whispered, the progenitor himself turned his
    attention to the fray – a terrible cataclysmic time in which the
    skies rained fire and wept blood
    .
    In Children of the Night, for the Embrace of Ur-Shulgi it says
    lThe night when the stones spoke and the skies cried a blood rain
    The battle shattered the temple bringing down its ancient stones and searing the ground about the ruins with hellfires.




    even these passages

    He gathered the dissatisfied of the other clans to his banner and laid siege to the Temple if Caine itself
    The problem, at least before the sorcerers came along, was that the Baali and all their cultist followers were too disorganized for the warriors and the first sorcerers to strike at. It was like trying to fight a swarm of wasps. So the Ancestor gave them something to unify them.
    He found someone who was born with a soul already destined for corruption — a ten-year-old shepherd — and Embraced that child. Then Haqim took his childe to the pit that Saulot said had spawned the Baali and he threw that shepherd into it. And the blood of the Ancestor and the power of that soul turned that child into the leader that the Baali needed.
    When the Baali assaulted the Second City en masse, the Ancestor was off on one of his mysterious disappearances. He made it back just in time to stop his childe and tear the demon out of the body that it rode, and when the battle was over he claimed that he had found the child dying on the battlefield and the Embrace was the only way to save that innocent victim.
    . Gathering apostles from the ranks of
    his brethren, the first shaitan of Baal-called-Destroyer
    marshaled his armies and laid siege to the Second City;

    Just as the ending


    At length, it is whispered, the progenitor himself turned his
    attention to the fray
    – a terrible cataclysmic time in which the
    skies rained fire and wept blood. The battle ended as
    abruptly as it had begun; the 12 al'shaitani were put to death,
    and their demonic hordes were routed. Of the boy-thing,
    however, there was no sign
    , and the horrors that had once
    paid fealty to his every command were lost to the whispering
    winds of legend.
    When the Baali assaulted the Second City en masse, the Ancestor was off on one of his mysterious disappearances. He made it back just in time to stop his childe and tear the demon out of the body that it rode, and when the battle was over he claimed that he had found the child dying on the battlefield and the Embrace was the only way to save that innocent victim.

    Shaitan hurled himself and his followers against Caine himself. The battle shattered the temple bringing down its ancient stones and searing the ground about the ruins with hellfires. Shaitan could not win, however, for such was Caine's might that even hell could not stand against him.
    Shaitan's power was broken, but Caine, could not bring himself to kill this wayward childe. Instead Caine gazed on the beauty of his great grandchilde and spoke, "You seem beautiful, like the golden bands I wear, like the grove of sweet scented trees in my garden, like the flresh of my beloved wife. Yet you are evil within, like the blood poisoned by sickness, like wine turned sour in the gourd, like a broken swrod lying on the battlefield. I cannot kill you, for it is my tainted blood, my anger, that ha brought you to taste this bitter cup; yet I cannot let you walk the Earth in beauty, with your long lashes, your golden haird, and pale eyes. Therefore I grant you unlife but take your beauty from you."
    Last edited by Undead rabbit; 01-17-2018, 11:05 PM.

  • #2
    I think we all realized that Ur-Shulgi is the 3rd Baali, however I had not read that story where Caine himself struck him down and twisted his visage into the burned, bleeding mess it is today. Neat!

    Comment


    • #3
      Beckett's Jyhad Diary adds to the evidence for the Ur-Shulgi is the Unnamed.

      If the records of my Clan are correct, Ur-Shulgi was Embraced during the Baali Wars of antiquity, and was active during the time of the Second City.
      Note in the following quote MV refers to Mysterious Villain, implied to be Ur-Shulgi breaking the Tremere Curse.
      [Camera resets to show MV from behind as he throws off his robes to reveal himself. In build, he looks like a young man, perhaps a teenager, but his skin is marked with orange-red veins the color of lava which give off a light that pulses in time with the music. The musical score now increases in intensity from prior “creepy music” to full on “Damien on a Rampage” frightening.]

      MV: [An occult incantation in an unknown language. No subtitles. Only the following words are intelligible: Haqim. Tremere. Moloch. Shaitan. Ur-Shulgi.]
      Ur- Shulgi is a named and well-known Methuselah who supposedly dates back to the Second City. The revelation of his apparent existence sets off a flurry of research into the ancient horror’s history. Rumors that Ur-Shulgi’s Embrace somehow involved the Baali as well as Haqim further darken the reputation of the Assamites as a Clan, even as they stoke fears of a Baali resurgence among the Sabbat Inquisition and various Camarilla occultists.
      or in the ruins of Chorazin, the cursed spot where Haqim Embraced his most fearsome childe. And perhaps resourceful characters can learn the truth about Ur-Shulgi before he burns the whole world in hellfire.
      As a slightly separate aside I just thought about what if Ur-Shulgi wasn't embraced Baali, but rather is the most potent (perhaps even first) Baali Apostate in existence.
      Last edited by Cynic01; 01-18-2018, 02:58 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        I don't know. I always imagined the 3rd baali to be some being of insects and blood and absurdly powerful. But if you adjust for translation errors good old Shulgi might be the 3rd.

        Comment


        • #5
          I have always suspected Ur-Shulgi to be Baali. Who better to "break" the Tremere curse than the person who gave them the Baali curse to begin with? And what if it was never "broken" at all, but instead simply overriden by the Baali curse applied a second time, exactly like what the Tremere curse did.

          But honestly, the guy shows up just when the Baali are winning, an unknown neonate with charred black skin that is somehow already a expert Blood mage and turns the tide?

          His childer is pale, unlike every other Assamite.

          It alwaus just seemed pretty, not obvious per se, but to make too much sense when you see the whole picture.

          I am also of the opinion that Haqim is a prime canidate for Embracing the Baali from the start, or Ashur. The majority of accusations pointing towards Saulot come from individuals with an agenda to hurt the Salubri or Saulot. Just saying.
          Last edited by Beckett; 01-18-2018, 01:56 PM.


          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Beckett View Post
            ... Who better to "break" the Tremere curse than the person who gave them the Baali curse to begin with? ... The majority of accusations pointing towards Saulot come from individuals with an agenda to hurt the Salubri or Saulot.
            Does this imply the Tremere... or Tremere himself... placed the curse, then removed the curse to in some way support ur-Shulgi? It might explain how quickly and easily the curse was lifted if Vienna helped, and had urShulgi himself (or simply his access to the well) for a sympathetic connection.

            Has it ever been detailed precisely how the Tremere learned the ins-and-outs of high level diablerie in the very early nights? Ur-Shulgi would surely have been an expert. For that matter, he also could have helped with the development of blood sorcery.

            Now, that's some epic-level prestation. I wonder who the witnessing harpy was!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Beckett View Post
              I am also of the opinion that Haqim is a prime canidate for Embracing the Baali from the start, or Ashur. The majority of accusations pointing towards Saulot come from individuals with an agenda to hurt the Salubri or Saulot. Just saying.
              The Transylvania Chronicles prodide the Proof for Saulot being the naughty one.

              Comment


              • #8
                The TC provides in character proof of Saulot being the naughty one concerning something that happened millenia ago, so it's a proof only if your ST believes it (and I don't).

                Comment


                • #9
                  I mean, in the sense it is a hastely translated artifact by two sources that totally have no bias, involves a seperate setting lore, and really the only indication it is talking about Saulot is because those NPCs say so.


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The evidence seems overwhelmingly in favor of Ur-Shulgi being the third Baali founder even if I personally hate that since I loath the Baali bloodline. But then again I wouldn't really know what to do with Ur-Shulgi in a game so him being a secret Baali, and now leader of the most of the Assamites, seems like something that offers some storylines even if it "only" probably involves Kindred in the Middle East while most others may be to far away to feel much effect from the change in Assamite leadership.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Who knows how many fourth gen baali there are. They have obfuscate, not auspex. Maybe there's a fourth, a fifth, maybe someone ate their way up.
                      I'll go with shulgi, but I do like the idea of the mystery woman, the swarm, the one they speak about with disgust. Maybe it could've been a saintly figure that ended her life in reaction to the damnation. Mystery's great.


                      Be correct.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gurkhal View Post
                        ...But then again I wouldn't really know what to do with Ur-Shulgi in a game so him being a secret Baali, and now leader of the most of the Assamites, seems like something that offers some storylines even if it "only" probably involves Kindred in the Middle East...
                        Doesn't have to, any game that involves the Jyhad in a larger sense, or even just the Tremere or Tzimisce, has cause to invoke it. Put simply, ur-Shulgi's motive may simply be to incapacitate or co-opt the Assamite clan so that Saulot, or whichever Antediluvian you rule to be the progenitor of the Baali if indeed they have one, can move more freely in the Jyhad. The Assamites would be, as they always have been, Saulot's chief rivals.

                        In the TC game I'm running now, Saulot has two chief enemies that stand most strongly against him: [Tzimisce] and Haqim. The former I'll dispose first, since it bears less relevance to the topic at hand and can be dismissed quickly. Saulot's and [Tzimisce]'s enmity goes back to when Saulot was the "good" guy; [Tzimisce] dealt with infernal powers (Kupala). When Saulot turned heel, [Tzimisce] was still an enemy; thus, in accordance with Saulot's part in the Jyhad, sent Samiel and Salubri warriors to deal with it. On what Saulot didn't plan, was [Tzimisce] and its clan being hardier than initially assumed.

                        As for the Assamites, Ur-Shulgi forced Haqim into torpor, created the Path of Blood based on a bastardized misinterpretation of the Laws of Haqim to suit its own purposes, created the Warrior and Sorcerer castes via experimentation with the blood, laid the original (Baali) curse, and has been manipulating the clan since to keep its eye safely away from Saulot's part in the Jyhad while exterminating his enemies. The clan experienced a glimmer of hope with the rise of Islam, which was quickly quashed with the Anarch Revolt and resulting Tremere curse. What caused ur-Shulgi to rise was Haqim's own rising, free of ur-Shulgi's manipulations; its only play then was to break the Tremere curse, and purge the clan of those loyal to Haqim. Ur-Shulgi overplayed its hand, and it's only a matter of time before there's a reckoning.

                        But, the damage is done: Saulot managed to engineer the rise of a new clan to call his own, and its combined power and expertise levied against the clans of Saulot's main enemies in the Jyhad.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Theodrim View Post
                          stuff
                          The warrior and vizier castes came before the sorcerers, but more importantly, the rise of Islam way predates the anarch revolt, easily the better part of a millennium.


                          Be correct.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by PewPew View Post
                            Who knows how many fourth gen baali there are. They have obfuscate, not auspex. Maybe there's a fourth, a fifth, maybe someone ate their way up.
                            I'll go with shulgi, but I do like the idea of the mystery woman, the swarm, the one they speak about with disgust. Maybe it could've been a saintly figure that ended her life in reaction to the damnation. Mystery's great.
                            Mary the Black diablerized her way up to the 4th generation and eventually ascended to becoming a full demon lord.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Theodrim View Post
                              The Assamites would be, as they always have been, Saulot's chief rivals.
                              It really depends. The relationship between Assamite and Salubri, and Saulot and Haqim has changed pretty significantly over editions, mainly related to 2nd Eds push to go very bleak and make everyone dark.

                              In the various Dark Ages writeups, Wolves at the Door, Road to Heaven, etc... generally indicate that the Assamites/Haqim almost always excluded the Salubri/Saulot from their mission because they respected them, and of all of the Damned, only they had not fallen, been cursed, or been found unworthy.

                              The first and only conflict really came during the Crusades, and even then things became strained, as Salubri warriors and healers are found pretty evenly on both sides. Many of the Healers did what they could to heal both sides and stoo bloodshed and war, and for that the Assamites still respected them, even as rivals, and had an unofficial code of being sworn to protect the Salubri, seeing it as the Clan's greatest failure when they could not do so in the purge that followed. Granted, not universal, but very common.

                              Revised era introduced the concept that Haqim got butthurt at Saulot for being the voice of reason, (telling Haqim the mortals he was suppossed to be protecting in his self-impossed mission, needed him to step up), and that the later Baali Wars was not so cordial between brothers at war, (not really all that supported anywhere else), seeing deciept in Saulot's push to eliminate them asap before they could spread, corrupt, destroy, and torment.
                              Last edited by Beckett; 01-20-2018, 07:42 AM.


                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X