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Ur-Shulgi as the Unnamed Baali

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  • #61
    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
    What's the difference between "Ur-Shulgi is a douchebag Assamite sorcerer" and "Ur-Shulgi is a douchebag infernalist Baali in charge of Assamites? What difference does it make to the coterie of Camarilla neonates vying for influence in Chicago that the game assumes will resemble most groups of PCs?
    How does it affect PCs? Like a lot of the Metaplot, however much the GM wants it to? Ur-Shugli calls on Assamite PCs (or nearby PCs) to do acts against their moral judgement, killing other Assamites, finding relics with Infernal taint to be sent back to Alamut instead of Destroyed. With his Awakening; directing the clan slightly differently in a way that PCs can notice and investigate.

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    • #62
      How does Ur-Shulgi have Road of Blood Old School at 10 yet is an Infernalist and plots against Haqium? I think I liked the he only considers one way of Kosher Haqium worship then he is wonky and planning against Haqium.


      It is a time for great deeds!

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

        Actually, nope, Huitz/Shaitan's has almost nothing in common with the backstory of the others beside references to corruption, demonology and the Baali.

        He was a temple's singer-slave raised to the top tiers of the city he lived in through being embraced for his beauty by one of its kindred overlords, the ever-elusive figure of Ashur. From there he went into the path of self-taught mystic/sorcerer, journeyed to many places (including the far east) and got exiled as an heretic and/or breaker of kindred traditions for consorting with the children of Llilith and/or other supernaturals. A bunch of kindred that disagreed with this act as one of envious intrigue and admired Shaitan for his wisdom and knowledge would follow him in exile and form the original Baali in the citadel of Mashkan-Shapir, that would centuries later become the target of choice for conquest of a wave of kindred survivors/refugees of the fall of the Second City.

        It's all there in Chaos Factor and no, not much in common with the tale of the Three at all. No ancient massacring a demon/torture-worshipping cult and burying hastily embrace mortals in a well/pit of organs, gore and broken corpses. Big names in common? Yes. Events? Not so much. Overall if he sounds like anything, would be some dark mirror of older portrayals of Saulot.

        Dark Ages Companion brings a variant telling where he's to blame for the fall of the First City, strikes at the Second generation, is brought down by Caine & etc. Back then i thought it sounded a lot like the tale of the Clanbook: Nosferatu about their Antediluvian tricking the 3rd gen into turning against the 2nd gen so he might attempt to diablerize his sire, down to the whhole "Caine striking him down and deforming with each hit" part. Nowadays, i would say the tale of Ur-Shulgi/Baal-the-Destroyer leading the Baali in razing the Second City before Haqim defeated him makes for another probable source of such conflation/mix-up.

        (What i kind of like, as the mixing of tales, garbled retellings and mistaken identities go well with all the confusion in Baali lore and offer interesting roleplay potential - like Huitz halting mid-plot to go into some pissed rant about someone claiming again he destroyed the First/Second City with his people when it was the exact opposite of the facts - among other stuff a ST can monkeywrench with)

        Yes, Ur-Shulgi's "secret past" has loads in common with the tale of the Three, but that is very much by design, either from a well-educated noddist wanting to calumniate the ancient very hard, as the Assamites' lore has gained lots of bad blood with the Baali from Dark Ages onwards, or if taken at face value as fact, Haqim already knew the tale of how the Three came to be - what's curious in itself thought explainable as taken from dominated/interrogated Baali prisioners and such - and decided to make his "Fourth/False Unnamed" to get all Baali together, without measuring potential consequences. With interesting cataclysmic results.

        But the tale to work requires the Three already existing long before Ur-Shulgi and the Baali to be enough of reccurring problem for Haqim to make that hilariously (stupid) decision of replicating the process as precisely as possible.

        Weird thought - what if Yorak came back changed from the Catedral of Flesh or that particular horror embraced/spawned a new "super-Baali" akin to the Three or Ur-Shulgi in ccontemporary times.

        Extra tidbit: Saulot's supposed connection to the Baali can be found in Transylvania Chronicles and well, to be blunt and honest, indirect, objectionable and flimsy in a bunch of details (source text could have been deliberately mistranslated, not to mention the original Salubri writer might have been tricked by a rogue clanmate through a combination of manipulation, mental conditioning with disciplines and torture), but has something like the skeleton of the "demon cullt elevated to kindred line" myth.
        Nergal is Huiz, by most accounts. Both he, Nergal-as-Shaitan, and the Black Shepherd are referred to as slave boys (one a lowborn singing slaveboy, the other as a tainted shepherd slaveboy). Nergal was created in the pit, as was ur-Shulgi. The language of burning rocks and apocalyptic rains at their appearance is applied to both. They're both described as being 'something more and something less'. The tone and language mirrors each other--probably intentionally. It's not in the CF write-up, but in the text from Cb: Baali, ST's Handbook and the excised Cb: Assamite text. I believe the Assamite excised material was specifically written to mirror the earlier Baali stuff. It's not canon, but the echoes are unlikely to be coincidental.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
          How does Ur-Shulgi have Road of Blood Old School at 10 yet is an Infernalist and plots against Haqium? I think I liked the he only considers one way of Kosher Haqium worship then he is wonky and planning against Haqium.
          I don't believe ur-Shulgi's version of the Road of Blood has ever been published (though I may have missed something in the years since CB:AssRev). His is a very old faith.

          Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
          Nergal is Huiz, by most accounts. Both he, Nergal-as-Shaitan, and the Black Shepherd are referred to as slave boys (one a lowborn singing slaveboy, the other as a tainted shepherd slaveboy). Nergal was created in the pit, as was ur-Shulgi. The language of burning rocks and apocalyptic rains at their appearance is applied to both. They're both described as being 'something more and something less'. The tone and language mirrors each other--probably intentionally. It's not in the CF write-up, but in the text from Cb: Baali, ST's Handbook and the excised Cb: Assamite text. I believe the Assamite excised material was specifically written to mirror the earlier Baali stuff. It's not canon, but the echoes are unlikely to be coincidental.
          That is an interesting belief you have there.

          - C.

          Last edited by Tegyrius; 02-17-2018, 08:30 AM.


          Clayton A. Oliver • Some Dude With a Keyboard

          This is the sound of me breathing.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Tegyrius View Post
            That is an interesting belief you have there.

            - C.
            I'm taking this as tacit confirmation.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Illithid View Post

              How does it affect PCs? Like a lot of the Metaplot, however much the GM wants it to? Ur-Shugli calls on Assamite PCs (or nearby PCs) to do acts against their moral judgement, killing other Assamites, finding relics with Infernal taint to be sent back to Alamut instead of Destroyed. With his Awakening; directing the clan slightly differently in a way that PCs can notice and investigate.
              I always thought Ur-Shulgi was Haqim's favourite child and most devoted .Can ur shulgi have demon blood or was he maybe even dark mage before becoming vampire possible.By all accounts Ur-Shulgi might be Haqim himself in disguise or his avatar of some sort like uber gargoyle servant/protector Mouth of Sauron type offcourse its very subjective and IMHO.I use Methuselah plans as big things and players do bits of them here or there not plans itself but some fragments(jyhad it is).

              Just sometimes u need info what kind of mission to give to players to recover old papers containing contracts which were never fulfilled or return to museum old assasin contract so its publicly accesible while mortals have no idea that some ancient vampire is again on the newfound long forgotten list of old Shulgi chores(cause he betrayed assamites to baali and thought it was long forgotten) by killing last messenger so until some random douchebag archeologist would find papers and old orders(gets killed by servants of that vampire but too late)

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              • #67
                Ur-Shulgi is definitely Haqim's most devoted childe, as shown by his "worship Haqim or die" attitude towards the clan since waking up. Most favorite? Debatable. Where Ur-Shulgi wants everyone to forsake their religion to follow Haqim as God, Haqim has shown more leniency in that matter. He personally found Fatima worthy of un-life even though she is a devout Muslim. As long as his clan does what they believe all Assamites should do, he seems ok with other ideologies.

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                • #68
                  Almost as if ur-Shulgi wanted to get rid of all religious parts within the Clan. Wait, isn't there a Bloodline out there, somewhere that is repelled by crosses or something?

                  ...

                  ...shit....
                  Last edited by Beckett; 04-11-2018, 02:48 PM.


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                  • #69
                    I think Beckett hit the nail on the head, there. Of course a Baali would want to eliminate any trace of religion from the Clan. That is, any religion that carries holy symbols.

                    And, let's face it, the faith espoused by the Web of Knives is pretty far from holy, when you get down to it. Their version of the Path of Blood and the veneration of Haqim is likely far removed from what Haqim himself intended. And since the Antedeluvian is currently absent, with no signs of returning anytime soon, Ur-Shulgi can get away with peddling his bastardized religion, sowing chaos all the while.


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                    • #70
                      Something I always think is interesting is that in the Baali Wars heavily involved the Assamites, Brujah, and Salubri, which also happen to be the ones that fell or changed significantly later.

                      The Assamites get placed under a major curse antithetical to their entire belief system and split, the Brujah go from respected warrior scholars to rabble, and the Salubri are betrayed and dogged at every turn before hunted down.

                      The only other Clan to suffer similarly was the Cappadocians, and I still hold it was Cappadocius as Ashur that truely created the Baali. I personally find the push that Ashur is a title or state of being kind of stupid, so dont use it.


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                      • #71
                        Well the Talmaherah book posits that Ashur was like a sacred city of the lost tribe. So being embraced by Ashur may have meant the location.


                        It is a time for great deeds!

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                        • #72
                          I understand. Im just saying I do not really care for the more recent (V20) explanations on it. Personal preference.


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                          • #73
                            Well personally I have always been a big fan of the flagrant and intentional contradictions on Baali history.


                            It is a time for great deeds!

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                            • #74
                              I don't have an issue with Baali contradictions, or really many of the various contradictions in WoD lore. Just saying that this one in particular I don't care for.


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