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  • Vilanized Salubri

    Tremere in the kindred history vilanized, conspirated and hunted the Salubri clan.
    I have dificult to show this plot in my campaing scenario in Dark Ages, how Tremere create vile rumors and diabolized the entire Salubri clan only baseated in one lvl discipline.
    Is a weak argument.

  • #2
    This is one of the reasons I really hated the changes to the Salubri in V20 DA. The entire Tremere history has always been pretty unbelievable. But give the Salubri a Discipline to make the world love them, ... come on.

    The original idea was that the Tremere, after diablerizing themselves down to 4th Gen realized they needed an Anti of their own to start being taken seriously. Indications are they took some time before deciding on Saulot, then began laying the groundwork for their lies. (Being that the Salibri at the time have a pretty good reputation almost universally, I don't see anyone actually believing this, but whatever).

    After the Diablerie of Saulot, the rumors about the Salubri stealing souls and being infernal really began, as the Tremere allied with the Ventrue, (one of the Salubri's major allies, wait, so the Ventrue are morons now). Keep in mi d, basically all of Cainite Society actually believes/knows the Tremere are wizards and witches in league with Satan/Hell/darkness, not to mention instigating all sorts of trouble and pissing off three entire Clans. Lets also rewind slightly,...

    So, the Clan that just publically Diablerized Saulot to gain legitimacy is condemning the Salubri as Diablerists?!?!?!

    Thats just the tip of the iceberg, and before they swapped Fortitude for Presence.

    So, the real reason, out of game, is because the Tremere had been established first, and the details about what Antideluvian they replaced where not really in place yet. The layers of backstory, and even creating Saulot and the Salubri Clan(s) all came later on, real world time. The Tremere, due to lack of significant weakness, top end Discipline spread, and some free passes had always been a popular Clan, being transported pretty much wholesale from another game. But, I doubt that they realized at the time how popular the Salubri (or Capadocians), and other later concepts could become. For the Salubri, its hard to say how much of it is because thd Clan represents the "good guy Clan", the last of my kind theme, ultra hard mode, or the sort of Cleric/healer/crusader archetype lacking in VtM overall that people find appealing. Or even the, concept of the entire world being against you for something you didn't do.
    Last edited by Beckett; 02-05-2018, 09:27 AM.

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    • #3
      The true reason behind it is probably that there's no such thing as a friend in Cainite society. The Salubri are a rival for resources just as much as any other Clan. Let them be taken down a peg. Why not let the Tremere and the Salubri destroy each other?
      Last edited by Malkavian87; 02-07-2018, 01:42 PM.

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      • #4
        Several factors work against the salubri and make the tremere propaganda campaign against them work.

        ​The salubri were a small clan to begin with, mostly consisting of wandering healers and warriors, who were out to do good. Vampires are naturally paranoid beings and anyone who comes bearing gifts is suspect almost immediately, especially when they claim they can heal the sick and kill the demons in your domain. Salubri were the odd clan of suspicious mystics even before the tremere started their purge.

        ​When the tremere became involved in the omen war and the salubri purge kicked off, the tzimice and salubri became unlikely bedfellows. Those salubri that chose to flee and hide likely met their end at the hands of the tremere, those that didn't likely went and joined the omen war on the side of the tzimice. The propensity for flesh crafting and gruesome experiments among the fiends likely helped the tremere push the angle that the salubri were somehow as detestable as the fiends, possibly claiming that the salubri were to the soul what the tzimice were to the flesh. Those that were against the fiends found it convenient to be against the salubri, a fact which tremere were more than willing to reward with thaumaturgical favors. This started the rumor that the salubri were soul stealers.

        ​On another level the tremere may have discovered that Saulot was the progenitor of the baali or that he at the very least dabbled with the infernal. The tremere likely made this information available, and likely blew it out of proportion before distributing it among scholars and taking manuscripts to centers of learning like Constantinople. When Constantinople was sacked some of these, allegedly, ancient manuscripts and forgeries made their way back west and added credence to the tremere claim that the salubri were vile monsters.

        ​Due to the salubri clan weakness many had to form cults of mortals who knew, to some extent, they were serving vampires. Some likely became involved in the cainite heresy, and those that didn't likely engaged in behaviors that would be considered heretical or cult like. This makes it easy to claim that the salubri were one of the reasons for the inquisition, and since no one wants to claim responsibility for that the salubri became easy scapegoats. The fact that the salubri require a willing victim to feed from mean that they skirting the line when it comes to breaking the silence of the blood and were therefore a danger, especially when the idea of the masquerade began circulating through vampire society.

        ​If one lived in a region that was sympathetic to the tremere then diablerizing a salubri would be seen as forgivable at worst and commendable at best. This means that any neonate who wanted to take the quick path to potent blood could jump on the tremere bandwagon and go salubri hunting. Likewise, elders who had a thirst for cainite blood could easily get some from such hunts in exchange for letting the tremere hunt any salubri in the area with impunity. These more opportunistic cainites bought into the tremere propaganda because it made their acts seem less horrific. Soon ventrue elders and neonates were not only condoning the purge but corroborating the tremere smear campaign.

        ​In my chronicles I also had tremere embrace salubri (by capturing salubri, taking blood from them, and using that blood to embrace hapless mortals). These false salubri could be pushed to frenzy and then let loose in a city, be forced to diablerize another one of the tremere's captives so that black streaks would show on their aura, and/or be conditioned through dominate to be the embodiment of the tremere propaganda. Either way, the tremere could then play the heroes, capturing the rogue salubri and bringing them to the local prince. At worst they may get a boon, and at best they would convince a prince that the salubri should be put down like rabid dogs.

        ​When the anarch revolt began the few salubri that remained either sided with the tzimice or the anarchs. Those that sided with the elder tzimice shared their fate, either dying at the hands of anarchs, hiding with the tzimice in torpor or retreating to isolated fortresses in the Carpathians. Those few that remained in the open were likely killed in the inquisition. Those that were not killed joined the sabbat.

        ​Since history is written by the victors and the camarilla was undoubtedly the larger of the two sects (being built by the ventrue and tremere), the smear campaign became the official doctrine of the sect. Those few that knew differently kept it to themselves at the risk of having their sympathies revealed to the tremere. After all, if you have salubri sympathies, and there are not salubri in the camarilla, then that must mean you are sympathetic to the sabbat.

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        • #5
          Better argument is the Baali origins.
          No one betwen antidiluvians show apears to confront the acusations of infernalism and relate the true behind the Baalis.

          The Seven Elders and Tremere can spring rumors about "true" genesis os Balli blooline and the participation of Saulot in the processes, matusalens of clan Salubri is the primary target (isolated elders, Salubri clan is full of wanderes and lone wolf right).

          Associate the Salubri clan with Baali genesis is the best line conspiracy for me, i see beyond, the Baali can leak pieces and proves of bond of Saulot and Baali, and the true objective of the Baali is just use Tremere for revenge against the Healers.

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          • #6
            Ok, but here is the thing.

            The Salubri had very strong partnerships with, but also the respect and trust of Clan Brujah, (who they had trained with since the Baali wars and battled side ny side with in the Crusades), the Assamites, who only began to have a strained relationship with during the crusades, but forgave the Healers who healed both sides rather than the Warriors who they blamed, not to mention again, the Baali wars), the Malkavians, to a lesser degree for their ability to alleviate the Curse for a time, the Ventrue, with whom they depended on for fair advice and the unique ability to heal their warriors, keep vital mortals healthy, and even, possibly to raise the dead. At the very least, the Nosferatu respected them for not being asshats and not judging, the Gangrel respected them as strong warriors or to help and heal even them. There are some suggestions that the Salibri worked pretty well with both the Tzimisce and Cappadocians as well, both to develope better understandings of anatomy and healing, and because all three also have a very scholarly bend. Its really only the Setites and the Tremere, that have trouble with the Salubri, and basically no one is willing to trust a thing they say.

            The other side of it is, honestly, how mentally handicapped do you have to be to turn your back on a group that has earned your respect for a small, localized group with nothing but promises. One is very respected, the other outright reviled. One has a unique ability to create infinite Health kits, the other, just sort of beginning to develope a few tricks they claim is super sectet magic. One group seeks to share their gifts, and has a reputation for helping without reward, the other hoards it to themselves alone, only using it after the
            devil's deal is done. One would have helped you, and their brothers joined you to fight, if diplomacy failed, the other is directly responsible for starting the war in the first place. Im sorry, you really have to be a moron under those circumstances to side with the Tremere and burn a major bridge here.

            Now add in the fact that it makes absolutely no sense for anyone outside of Eastern Europe to jump on the bandwagon when the Salubri are sort of worldwide.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Ulisses View Post
              Tremere in the kindred history vilanized, conspirated and hunted the Salubri clan.
              I have dificult to show this plot in my campaing scenario in Dark Ages, how Tremere create vile rumors and diabolized the entire Salubri clan only baseated in one lvl discipline.
              Is a weak argument.
              Remember that while Salubri aren't the infernalists Tremere claimed they are, Salubri are in fact monstrous soul suckers. Valeren 5 turns the target into a zombie and allows Salubri to rape the target's soul into a moral stance Salubri likes more. And on top of that, Salubri were a militaristic clan that served a warmongering demigod who believed he can just stab all the baddies in the face and that will solve all evil forever. Salubri were moralizing dicks who bullied and brainwashed people all the time. And that is not the kind of behavior that makes you best buds with people.

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              • #8
                It doesn't have to be an airtight argument. It has to be "good enough" for vampires who want to believe it, to suspend disbelief. As others pointed out, Salubri were the Fun Police of the Dark Ages. Few vampires actually liked them, and of those who did, did so because either they were of an equally moralizing and pretentious clan, honoring ancient alliances, and/or because they're in a position to throw Salubri warriors at a rival until it stops moving. Bare minimum, most vampires found them annoying and best fucked-off to somebody else's domain.

                So, out of nowhere come the Tremere, who are more useful than Salubri and more willing to engage in prestation, all without the moralist bullshit. Add in the fact they approached the Ventrue first, as allies against a common enemy whose lands the Ventrue are actively trying to seize with varying levels of success. The reality is, the Tremere could have claimed Salubri weren't vampires at all, but rather lizard-people from Mars out to poison the world with fluorine gas distributed via chemtrails, and vampires the world over would have said "I don't know what fluorine or chemtrails are, because this is the 13th Century, but it sure sounds bad and those lizard-people have got to go!".

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                • #9
                  I find it intetesting just how varied people's perceptions on Clan/Bloodline are.

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                  • #10
                    Also, I love the salubri but I think it was kind of easy to actually buy that the salubri warriors were infernalists.

                    In short, the salubri warriors are: vampires who are embraced into a community with an exclusive Code that will have you as a "knight" only if you change your name for an angel-sounding name, that is supposed to be inspired by your guardian angel. Said angel is supposed to lend you some power if you use some of your awesome salubri-warrior powerz (you know that one that gives you Insta-5Presence to Majesty everyone around? Yes that one). It's actually easy to show the warriors as infernalists with shiny patrons.

                    There's also the whole "some salubri actually sook possession from demons to commit suicide afterward". Kinda stupid, and the kind of things that will definitly turn against the clan at some point.

                    I have a personnal headcanon though that there's a reason Sabbat Ventrue get Auspex in-clan. You know who else has Auspex and Fortitude in-clan and feeding restrictions? Honestly, I don't think all those ventrues are real ventrues, and some of them do flash a third eye before they kill you. I like the idea that the Crusaders are a mixed line of former salubri warriors and ventrue knights who refused to stand with the ones who killed they comrades in arms, and I like the idea that the older one get Valeren, both ventrue-born knights and salubri-born warriors The return of the Salubri Antitribu would be very fun to roleplay from both sides!


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                    • #11
                      I don't think in the Salubri as a "good" or "bad" clan. The Ventrue have a mythology as the saviors of the race of Caine and the world against the Daeva and they are not specially virtuous. In my vision the Salubri are similars. A order of "saints" and vampires no less! can fall easy in the hubris and the arrogance. They can have generated certain resentment in the rest of clans with an excess of zeal of bigotry. They can have used their holy reputation as an excuse for grow their interests. Summarizing, the Salubri can be corrupts as the organized religions, with good intentions in thei origins, but when they grow in number and power, the decadence arrives. And I think that situation is specially true for the vampires.

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                      • #12
                        Salubri = paladins? Nope im my thoughts, the clan is formed by honorable and duty avenger warriors and sage healers, but is not everithing black and white and all clans is friends because Salubri is good guys.

                        Carthagians Brujah dance with devil, Moloch and Troile are lovers.
                        Arikel and Nergal are lovers too.
                        Gangrel clan is lonners by nature, and im not read nothing about Salubri and Gangrel or Nosferatu alliances.

                        Samiel hunting down Tzimisce, and probably dies in the process (and Dracon give the "Tzimisce baby embrion" to Yorak)

                        Ventrue alliance with Tremere is crucial for Usurpers survivors and give huge power assetment to Ventrues, blood magic, controled by Tremere.
                        Ventrue clan is the base force behind the war against anarchs, Tzimisce warlords and opositors of your leadership.
                        And this leadership give the Ventrue and your allies (Tremere?) influence to convince others against the rumors about truth or lies behind Salubri extermination.

                        My personal conspirancy plot is this: Tzimisce, cursed and abrace one mortal infernalist, this infernalist is behind the diabolic tribe of demoniac worshipers, two other childs of antediluvians are corrupted by this inferrnalists.
                        Ur Shulgi child of Haquim (The Unamed) and the Saulot child.
                        Assamites and Salubri realize Baali Wars for this.

                        Carthage is the tentative to corrupt Brujah, and Senate Eternal discover or is influenced by ancient cainites to start the war against Carthage, but the truth is this and a secret Baali Civil War (Cybele, Tanitbaal Sahar and Moloch), the result is the change leadership of Baali and destruction of Carthage.

                        Samiel and his warriors discover the truth behind Baali genesis and the first infernalist and march to Chiprus and fight and fall in victory against fisic form of Tzimisce.
                        Tzimisce "ressurect" in a fetal form in Dracon, Dracon give the seed baby monster to Yorak, and Tzimisce ploting your vengeance against Salubri.
                        Tzimisce want embrace Goratrix, but the mortal mage is more evil and fast in your ambition to become a cainite, and he and your mage house digging about the curse of Caim, Tzimisce send a prey to the ambitious Goratrix hunt, one elder, controlling by Tzimisce.
                        Tremere clan growing and Tzimisce ploting against the Salubri begins, Tzimisce help, in secret, Tremere finding proves the bond between Salubri and Baali, and localization of Saulot haven.
                        Tremere diablerized Saulot, but Saulot in the last moment transfer your will and soul to Tremere body, and the next centuries, Saulot use the Tremere clan to erase your kind (your mission is purify this world and eliminate Salubri clan and clear your sins to find and elevated in Golconda) but in same time Saulot and Tremere souls search the fall of Tzimisce.
                        Tremere reveal for Ventrue the clan genesis of Baali and influence of Salubri clan in this fact, secretly Ventrue no help the Salubri clan and confirm the legend behold "infernal warriors" among Salubri clan.

                        Tzmisce plan is not perfect, with influence by Saulot, Tremere clan forge a alliance with Ventrue clan, the veiled clash between Tzimisce and Ventrue gain form with Tremere controlling by Saulot, Tzmisce drawback is hard, your contingent plan is deviant, influence the younglings and rebels and bond the massive anarch troups, behind the ritual of Kupala Fire Flower Tzimisce use your tainted blood to hide among survivors anarchs and broken Tzimisce clan in the rising Sabath.





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                        • #13
                          In the real world, the success of that sort of propaganda usually happens because those with the most money and power see a way to get even more money and power.

                          So I ask myself: who has a lot of money and power and would acquire more if this propaganda war succeeded? The answer, most likely, is the Ventrue who wanted control over Tzimisce lands. The Ventrue wanted Tzimisce lands, the Tzimisce and Salubri were allies as a consequence of both being under assault from the Tremere, so the Ventue used their money and power to make the Tremere win the propaganda war as part of a long term strat to get even more money and power.

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                          • #14
                            The Tremere are an unusual clan because their elders aren't super-secret near-mythical figures, scattered in caves around the world, in mysterious torpor. They are now, and were moreso in the early nights, a cabal of 4th and 5th generation vampires, centered on an active 3rd generation vampire/cult leader. And when I say active, I mean like, "He pops into the chantry every few months for a chat, and a game of chess."

                            Don't underestimate the power that being able to mass-embrace 4th, 5th, and 6th gen vampires grants, especially if you think full blood-bonding your childer is a awesome idea.

                            Most clans, including the Salubri, simply don't have the ability to put that kind of fire-power on the field, in a coordinated way, all at one time.

                            Now, I get that generation isn't everything, experience counts for a lot. The Tremere, though, were unusually prepared to take advantage of their powerful blood. They had centuries of experience reverse engineering magickal powers to see how they work, and improve upon them. So, when the first member of House Tremere reached 4th gen, he had the ability to quickly learn the 6th, 7th, 8th, and even 9th dots of various disciplines... then share that knowledge with his fellows. Even leaving Thaumaturgy out of it, since that was some ground-breaking research which took time, high level Dominate and Auspex is a combo that should not be underestimated.

                            Just taking one 6th level Dominate power as an example, Implant Opinion, from LotC, Lasombra. To over-simplify the power, it allows a vampire to use Dominate to tell someone, "Hey, you, over there! Yeah, you. You now believe (fill in the blank with any belief you want)!" A few 5th and 6th gen Tremere wandering the world, who slip the Salubri rumors into casual conversation could easily have triggered the purge. They don't even have to convince everyone, just enough to shift public opinion.

                            Yes, some of them will get caught tampering with minds, but, remember the small, coterie of 3rd to 5th gen founders? They can be called in any time to help out.

                            As for the Salubri having Presence, that can actually be a problem. Let's assume Saulot had Presence at a high level, likely ten dots. Let's further say he occasionally used those powers while hidden. Most Presence powers are area affect or have a defined range, especially at higher levels. If the Tremere were able to identify one of those powers, and knew exactly where they had been detected... remember their high-level Auspex... they could do a pretty good job of finding Saulot. Let's say there is a "like my clan!" signal sent out every night, keeping the Salubri popular. If the Tremere test things out in a coordinated way (which is kind of what Tremere exist for) and realize the effect ends at Lisbon, Edinburgh, Copenhagen, Lodz, Tirana, Malta, and Gibraltar, they can triangulate and start looking in the south of France, where the center of the circle is. This is a level of coordination and analytical research simply impossible for any other clan at the time, with the possible exception of only the Assamite sorcerers, and the Malkavians.

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                            • #15
                              For the most part, Tremere has been locked away in a strange Torpor basically since he Diablerized Saulot. There have been a few short waking moments, nut it seems to be for short stents when Tremere, Saulot, or Tzimisce have gained dominance of the body.

                              I'm not sure if he has ever Embraced anyone, personally as a 3rd Gen, (and it is also 50/50 if Tremere actually even got the 3rd Gen from the "Diablerie").

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