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  • Primogen problems

    In a scenario from the perspective of a primogen, how could you outwit this problem...
    You are low on numbers.
    Your city is overpopulated.
    The prince will only give the tradition of creation to another clan until their numbers are at par.
    That clan is clearly stalling knowing it'll piss you off therefore can't be convinced to hurry up.
    You know there are political power plays in effect and have to stay cautious.
    Leaving yourself isn't an option else you will lose your domain and other things. It will also garner you negative reputation from the elders in your clan.

  • #2
    What Powers do you have?

    Comment


    • #3
      Invite someone of that particular clan that is looking to sire, secure the princes permission for both. Continue as needed.

      Or find away to drive out other kindred so over population isn't an issue.

      Comment


      • #4
        The opposing clan is pulling a filibuster move.

        Comment


        • #5
          So? Even if the opposing clan primogen has every clan member in the city in his pocket, you can't find someone of that clan willing to move to the city for the chance to sire?

          And if you can't do that, just personally drive other kindred out until the overpopulation is over? Hell fake some masquerade breeches on the opposing clan if need be to lower their numbers even further so they have to sire.

          Comment


          • #6
            I don't see why the other clan would choose to give up its advantage at all? You talk about them fillibustering but if they can't be forced to thin their numbers and the prince doesn't want to exile/bloodhunt/etc any of them then they are clearly in a position of power that they should enjoy.

            Now that being the case how do you thin their numbers without getting blamed is the question. Well first lets look at the situation objectively: the larger a group is the greater potential for fragmentation so while the other clan has an advantage in numbers there are going to be more members of that clan wanting greater power than among yours, this is ESPECIALLY true in the supposedly united clans like Ventrue and Tremere where they only damned way to get ahead is for someone to die.

            So find the politically weakest neonates of that clan and start to groom them. Offer them completely excessively lucrative boon opportunities, and be very very public about this. The Primogen of the other clan will think they are already in your pocket and push them further outside the political landscape, they will rightly be able to show how "Paranoid and tyranical" their current primogen as they push towards someone who wants the position in clan, you can thus support the civil war among them and if your side wins.. well you have a powerful ally. If your side loses.. there are fewer of that clan which was the goal wasn't it?

            Or you could just sit around the elysium and offer boons to the least capable and qualified of said clan to go investigate things that will get them killed.

            Comment


            • #7
              Start rumors the opposing clan is attempting to over-throw the Prince with their newfound numbers.

              Frame a few specific members of this clan for breaking the Masquerade.

              Destabilize resources of another clan while making it look like your opposition who are seeking the right to embrace.

              Attempt to dissuade elders of this opposing clan from embracing, and instead letting their weaker progeny have the opportunity.

              Stage multiple unsanctioned embraces by opposing clan and have the neonates and their Sires reported to the Prince.

              Stage events to remove opposing Kindred or have them killed so that their membership is weakened

              Convince the Prince these recent events prove the opposing clan is unworthy of propagating further, and that the best answer is you grant yourself the right.

              If all this doesn't work, kill the Prince and declare yourself Bishop.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Pnizzle View Post
                The prince will only give the tradition of creation to another clan until their numbers are at par.
                Sorry, maybe Im misunderstanding something.

                So, you are a Primogen of Clan A. The Prince is not allowing you/your Clan to Embrace until Clan B does as well. Primogen of Clan B refusses to Embrace, to make you mad? Is this correct?

                Bring up the fact that Primogen of Clan B is an idiot that is willing to risk the security of the Domain by refussing to replenish their numbers and train the next generation all out of spite, which is preventing you and other Primogen from doing your duties.

                Id imagine Primogen of Clan B would not be Primogen for many more nights.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Pnizzle View Post
                  In a scenario from the perspective of a primogen, how could you outwit this problem...
                  You are low on numbers.
                  Your city is overpopulated.
                  The prince will only give the tradition of creation to another clan until their numbers are at par.
                  That clan is clearly stalling knowing it'll piss you off therefore can't be convinced to hurry up.
                  You know there are political power plays in effect and have to stay cautious.
                  Leaving yourself isn't an option else you will lose your domain and other things. It will also garner you negative reputation from the elders in your clan.
                  ​I'm with Beckett on this not making sense.

                  ​Depending on clan there is no way to really keep track of clan numbers, good luck trying to track Malkavians or Nosferatu. In the case of other clans there are long histories of sending childer to other clan mates for training or other instruction. Thus if say a local Tremere chantry gained a new apprentice who was embraced elsewhere & by someone else, there really isn't anything the prince can say about granting a right to embrace.

                  ​Bolstering numbers does not always mean embracing some one, you can just put in a request for additional clan mates (with or without incentives) to join you in your city. As long as your clan doesn't attract attention and is self sufficient as far as feeding, it shouldn't be an issue.

                  ​The scenario you are describing is either very heavily contrived or it is a non-issue. I mean how can you have an overpopulation problem and be at low numbers? Unless the clans with the high numbers are in charge, then you shouldn't be expecting fair treatment in the first place.

                  ​Worst case scenario if you must play along with this scenario, then you should socially engineer tensions between the two largest clans in the city so that they thin each others numbers. You just keep a low profile, never bringing up the desire to embrace, but always being helpful to all sides. Given enough time, the population numbers will balance on their own which means your low numbers won't matter as much.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Thoth View Post

                    ​I'm with Beckett on this not making sense.

                    ​Depending on clan there is no way to really keep track of clan numbers, good luck trying to track Malkavians or Nosferatu.

                    .
                    There's a whole damned position for dealing with kindred who the prince hasn't approved existing in his city, its called Scourge. So yeah i am pretty sure there is a damned good way to keep track of general clan numbers.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Lian View Post

                      There's a whole damned position for dealing with kindred who the prince hasn't approved existing in his city, its called Scourge. So yeah i am pretty sure there is a damned good way to keep track of general clan numbers.
                      There being a Scourge does not mystically create the means to keep track of numbers of Kindred in the city. Existence of the scourge makes it in no way easier to get any idea of Nosferatu numbers for example. All it means is that there is a Kindred with a blessing from the Prince to deal with any unknown Kindred it finds or happens to come across.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Lian View Post

                        There's a whole damned position for dealing with kindred who the prince hasn't approved existing in his city, its called Scourge. So yeah i am pretty sure there is a damned good way to keep track of general clan numbers.
                        ​If the scourge was doing their job, there wouldn't be overpopulation in the first place. Unless the Prince is actively unbalancing the population ratio, which brings us right back to the concept of why are they expecting equal treatment in this situation?

                        Also most positions don't make any sense with population numbers. I mean a city like San Francisco would have like 5 vampires, total, not per clan. So many cities won't even have Primogen, they just have the local member of clan X. Forget about things like the court positions or the concept of Harpies. You wouldn't have Elysium, you just have the local bar where everyone goes to grab a bite.

                        ​I would love to know what game mechanic and what edition it is from that you think gives default 100% tracking information on all clans in a given city. That sort of thing is Deus Ex Machina at the best of times.

                        ​I mean you could say it is really high level Auspex, except only Generation 6 or lower would have that level of power, and that even then, they would have to spend all their time scanning their city rather than running it. You could make a case for ghost spies watching everything, but most Necromantic clans are independents, thus not really having anything to do with Camarilla rules. You could make an argument about a Prince with Animalism employing thousands of animal spies, but they are still animals with limited intelligence which means all they can do is sense a vampire is present and report that they saw a vampire at a location, but not their name, hair color, accent or language type, style of dress, etc.

                        ​Lastly the same rules that allow a Prince to empower a scourge to cull the kindred population also binds them to the rules of hospitality. Which means traveling or wandering vampires can come and go from the domain safely as long as they present themselves each time. So on top of keeping track of the local population, there is also the transient vampire population to consider. Gangrels, Brujah, and Malkavians all embrace randomly or may abandon a childe on a whim. This means the local authorities are going to have their hands full just about every night. Unless you are tasking a small intelligence agency with exclusively monitoring vampire activity in your city, which would be a masquerade breach and get you removed from being Prince, you are not going to be able to track everything.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Honestly, I can really only see the Gangrel and Brujah getting away with Embracing without permission, and for the Brujah, not that often.

                          For the Gangrel, its a mixture of treat them like adults because they act like adults and a bit of it would be too much work to try to track down the truth, (are they a wanderer ftom another area, passing through, illegitimately sired,...), and can I, the Prince survive pissing off a Gangrel. And if they don't slaughter me and my court, what do I gain?

                          Brujah are not stupid, and know flaunting this rule, generally, doesn't help them. It still happens, but it generally undermines the Clan's efforts.

                          A Malkavian that is too crazy to not follow the basic rules probably didn't last long enough to make it to the point they could Embrace without permission.

                          A city that has these guys Embracing every other night probably exiled those Clans long ago. Even like a 10th of that seems very high.

                          Something Id also like to point out is that generally speaking, the right to Embrace is given as a reward for a notable service rendered. A Primogen holding this back from their own Clan just seems really strange.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I might be able to imagine a situation where a primogen discourages members of his clan from embracing. The right to progeny is one of the most expensive things your average vampire is ever going to "buy" with prestation. If too many members of a clan embrace legally, that implies a negative balance of trade between the clan and other clans. The primogen might just see embracing into an already over-represented clan as a needless luxury. Far better to invest assets into domain or other backgrounds that allow for the gaining of further favors. Ghouls can provide most of the services you would hope for from progeny, and have no interest in diablerie. Fledglings are notorious for being more trouble than they're worth!

                            And the Sabbat arch-bishop said, "I got 99 problems, but a primogen ain't one."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Possessed View Post

                              There being a Scourge does not mystically create the means to keep track of numbers of Kindred in the city. Existence of the scourge makes it in no way easier to get any idea of Nosferatu numbers for example. All it means is that there is a Kindred with a blessing from the Prince to deal with any unknown Kindred it finds or happens to come across.
                              It does make a person who's job it is and who's reputation is built on being good at that job. So yeah if one clan is regularly both flouting the prince and the scourge it doesn't mystically make them have to obey, but we can assume a city where the prince has control and someone who is keeping people in check because if not.. the issue of embracing without permission wouldn't be an issue.

                              Obfuscate in clan doesn't remove the fact that people get Auspex in clan. And plenty of cities don't have complete underground complexes to hide in.

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