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  • #16

    Hello Everyone!

    I am a player in this chronicle and since I did not see any signs for players to keep out I thought I would chime in here and offer some additional information that might help to clear up a few matters. First is @ Beckett. You are 100% correct in this assesment...

    Originally posted by Beckett View Post

    Sorry, maybe Im misunderstanding something.

    So, you are a Primogen of Clan A. The Prince is not allowing you/your Clan to Embrace until Clan B does as well. Primogen of Clan B refusses to Embrace, to make you mad? Is this correct?

    A little background. The current political climate of the city is a result of event that happened before I sat down to table. I joined this game after five or six sessions had been played. The events of which I speak of I have learned in character through rumors and gossip so with that being said some of what I know may not be entirely accurate. At any rate here is a summary of what happened before I arrived.

    1) The Gangrel Primogen was provoked into attacking another vampire in Elysium.
    2)This caused a massive standoff between various factions currently in attendance at Elysium and a fight ensued. Order was restored but some lives were lost by pretty much every clan in attendance as far as I know. The Gangrel had a large number of it's members killed or were in torpor by the fight's end.
    3)The Prince banished the Gangrel Primogen from the city for starting the fight and the remaining Gangrel chose a new Primogen in his place.

    I joined the game the very next session but in game a week had passed. During this time the Brujah clan had gotten into a turf war of sorts with a tribe of garou and suffered serious member depletion. At one point they were down to two members, their Primogen and a PC Brujah, but they managed to add three new Brujah.

    The Story was completed just before Thanksgiving when we broke for the holidays and resumed around New Years. By the completion (I missed when exactly) it was established through politics in game that Clan Gangrel was only following its Primogen and therefore the Primogen alone would face the consequences for his actions, namely exile from the city.

    Come back after the break and the timeline has been forwarded one year. Clan Gangrel has been given priority to embrace new recruits and no other clan is being given permission to fill their ranks until the Gangrel reach a certain level. So the Gangrel are intentionally stalling to put the hurt on the other clans and probably to garner major boons or concessions from the other clans to get ball rolling.

    The mention of a population over flow is due to rumors running rampant through the city that caitiff are flocking to the city in record numbers and supposedly the caitiff population is at 75+ and climbing. Personally I think this is just an overblown rumor as we have seen no signs of these caitiff and I have to think if the population was that large we'd being seeing some sign of it. One PC is trying to investigate that plot hook but has done so half-heartedly. Once the player found out it wasn't going to be solved in a single night of role playing she just gave up on it. But that is neither here nor there.

    The real crux of the OP and the Primogen (my Primogen as it happens) in question is that Clan Tremere took a big hit last session. Clan Tremere had lost a neonate in the Elysium fight. No big deal. But then just last session a Tremere Elder was showing his childe (PC) how to hunt when they were attacked by three Sabbat. The Sabbat presence is known in the city and is an on going plot element. At any rate the Tremere Elder suffered a really bad string of dice rolls, botching with three 1's and zero successes on one roll(!) and got knocked into torpor on the opening round of the ambush before he could even act.

    The Fledgeling(PC), unwilling to leave his Sire, stayed and fought on, and through sheer bloody minded tenacity (and a truckload of luck) managed to fight off all three attackers, capturing two of them! The third got away. Yes this Fledgeling has a nice fat Life Boon coming his way. The Player is quite happy. This turn of events leaves Clan Tremere with but four active members. The Regent, a Tremere Harpy, an Apprentice (myself), the aforementioned Fledgeling.

    The Tremere clan never had a high population to begin with but now the Regent thinks we are being directly targeted and being that we are unable to grow our ranks is looking for options as the OP said. The Gangrel who control the breeding rights as it were are staying on the edges of the city laying low in the surrounding mountains and hills, content to wait this out until the other Primogen are begging them on hands and knees. They're safe and secure but they know the city is on the brink of a Sabbat take over attempt, and they like where they are positioned in all this.

    To answer the other questions generally asked... this Prince has the city pretty much entirely under his thumb and his Clan mates (Ventrue) control all the choice spots and positions in the city. They also just so happen to have the highest number of vampires in the city and as far as I can tell have only suffered one death leaving them with roughly twelve active Ventrue in the city. I could be wrong. Remember that all this information I have provided is what I learned in game through my PC's own investigations and observations. My data may be inaccurate in places.


    • #17
      Ok, that does make more sense. My first inclinations are that more is going on with the Gangrel than it seems. They could be allied with the Sabbat, or even faking Sabbat attacks for various reasons, which could be a good thing. For instance, trying to create a unifying threat to get all the bad blood out of the way. Or, is it possible that the ex-Primogen of the Gangrel was actually themself? Could it have been a fleshcrafted double, or possessed?

      Its also worth noting that it is usually very,... stupid to provoke the Gangrel, so there may not be much sympathy for the Kindred that did it, as oppossed to the same happening to most other Clans, even Primogen. It is the equivalent of internet trolling/needling, sort of, when someone "mouth writes a check their ass can't cash", except Kindred Society isn't stupid, and sees it for what it is.

      I find it a bit odd that the Gangrel seemed to have taken the most casualties. Could this have been faked? That might also explain why the Gangrel are not Embracing, if they actually do have their numbers at normal levels.

      It is also possible that the Gangrel ARE Embracing, out in the outskirts where no one else knows, or... maybe those Caitiff rumors are the Gangrel Fledglings.

      I still do not really see a reason that the other Clans could not Embrace until the Gangrel do. I mean if other Clans are low, too. But, something I would be very concerned about is the potentially devastating influence vacum the Domain may be in, right now. If that many Kindred are gone, who is taking over their connections to the local news, police, corners office, lawyers, etc...?

      And, how are the Nosferatu? Generally speaking, when attacking a Camarilla city, the Nosferatu, Gangrel, and Tremere, (probably that order), are the first targets. The Nos because of their spy and info network, the Gangrel because both they tend to be the first line of defense on the outskirts the early warning system. Those two Clans first because they aremost likely not to be missed for a night or two. Then the Tremere, hopefully before they can whole up and get much of their magics, which take time up and going offensively. But they are too obvious a target to go after first, at least as a group. One or two, especially "coincidently", which may be what is happening, possibly.


      • #18
        WilyQuixote One way you could put pressure on the prince to alter or rescind the "only Gangrel can embrace" edict is to kidnap/fake the death (or kill if you really want to risk it) of the other Ventrue so it puts pressure on the Prince so they have to replenish their numbers.

        If you can get the Nos to look the other way (you have not mentioned them yet) and the Tremere sound like they would jump aboard, what are the Ventrue going to do?

        To me it seems like the Ventrue are the biggest problem in this situation, especially the Prince. This sort of sloppy ruling is the way revolution happens.
        Last edited by Fadier; 02-08-2018, 03:22 AM.


        • #19
          Very astute observations Beckett! You are right in that there is more going on with the Gangrel then appearances indicate. In game we learned that the Gangrel were approached by some Sabbat members outside the city and the Sabbat did try to entice the remaining Gangrel to join the Sabbat. They refused allegedly but we have only the Gangrel's word for this. No actual proof. I didn't mention it before because it didn't really seem relevant to the original post.

          I wasn't there for the big fight in Elysium but I believe that the Gangrel may have been ganged up on by some of the other vampires. The Prince and the Sheriff were both in attendance at Elysium that night and both Prince and Sheriff are renowned bad asses. I think they took out a few Gangrel single handed as it were. This would account for their higher rate of casualties over everyone else.

          The other clans are being denied permission to embrace by the Prince. He made a decree that no once can embrace until the Gangrel do. The Prince runs a tight ship, he's extremely conservative, very much adheres to the Traditions, is known to be very powerful, has a highly competent Sheriff doing his bidding, and has firm control of the Primogen with one or two exceptions, but these exceptions do not have enough sway to make a difference. So what the Prince says goes. His word is law and woe betide those who break his laws.

          As for openings in the city connections I believe I mentioned that clan Ventrue has all the desired spots one would expect in controlling a Camarilla city. If there were any openings by other vampires deaths in the city the Ventrue swooped in and claimed them. The city is well and truly under the Prince's control. They pretty much have a monopoly on things.

          As for your assessment on Sabbat attacking the city, once again you are very astute. The Nosferatu have recently been forced out of their warrens by Hunters and I personally have encountered a Vozhd (Player knowledge here and not character knowledge) in the sewers. When I reported it no one believed me and I don't have the needed social skills and contacts to force the issue. So for now I am "the boy who cried wolf". The Gangrel were the next targets of the Sabbat and as I just said earlier who really knows if they are with the Camarilla now or the Sabbat. The next Clan to have a confirmed encounter with the Sabbat was the Tremere and I just explained how that went down.

          So kudos to you for reading between the lines and picking up key aspects of our Chronicle. Well done Sir!

          Now do you (or anyone else) have any suggestions for what a concerned Regent/Primogen might do to bolster his ranks and strengthen his position as per the OP?
          Last edited by WilyQuixote; 02-08-2018, 03:32 AM.


          • #20
            WilyQuixote Thanks for clearing things up, that helps a lot.

            ​Being clan Tremere means that the standard advice doesn't really apply for building up clan power. If a Brujah embraces three new members, that is three more people capable of hitting things harder or faster. It is a fairly straight forward power curve, but with Tremere the power curve gets wonky because so much of what makes a Tremere powerful is time and accumulated knowledge. Hence why mass embraces work for some clans but not others.

            ​Given that the city was infiltrated by sabbat, that means you won't have time to find the mortals who would make good vampire warlocks, embrace them, send them to Vienna, bring them back and then give them a multi-year course on practical and theoretical Thaumaturgy. So I would suggest playing to the Tremere clan strengths and use a different approach.

            ​First your Tremere have to acquire several new communal havens through out the city, so that you are never more than 20 minutes by foot from a safe house. Dominate and high level resources make getting the havens straight forward as well as getting the required upgrades done quickly. Rig the new havens as one part panic room and one part insane death trap. We are talking Thaumaturgical wards as well as steel plating in the walls with remote control flame throwers. I am talking simple propane or natural gas fed nozzles built into the walls that spray down a room at the push of a button kind of thing. Basically if anybody comes after you, you haul tail to the safe house and stay dug in until the attackers lose interest or die in the attempt. It sounds intricate, but it isn't that hard to do. If it needs saying, yes you pay $100 to have an exterior sprinkler system installed so your enemies can't easily burn down the house and you build some form of escape plan so if the enemy does get to your safe room, you can escape. Preferably leaving some kind of self destruct present for them in the process.

            ​Second, tell the Prince that you are going to personally look into the caitiff problem, and if need be take care of it. Have your regent put in a call to the head chantry for a specialist to be temporarily transferred to your chantry. Next you round up every single Caitiff in the city and lock them up in one of your new safe houses. Let the specialist get to work and then hide your new loyalist gargoyle force in the chantry until needed. The nice thing is that you will gain a boon from the prince for cleaning up the Caitiff, you now have a strike force of meat shields that no one knows about, and you never embraced a single tremere to do it, thus abiding the Princes decree to not sire until the Gangrel do their thing.

            Third you need to lay in supplies for a siege. While I am not expecting a full on sabbat siege to take place, it is far to easy to target some one who goes out to eat every night. Blood packs in freezers, live in herds, and lots of siege supplies.


            • #21
              A number of options come to mind (note these are not necessarily mutually exclusive).

              7 minus 2 equals 5
              This requires convincing the Primogen the Prince has a hold over to instead break off and form a bloc isolating the Ventrue and Gangrel. Even if you can't get a bloc strong enough to force the Prince on its own, they can be used to assist some of the other plans.

              The Lockdown
              This relies on the Prince, or at least a decent number of Kindred in the city, relying on the Tremere for their Thaumaturgical knowledge and rituals. Basically it involves the Regent informing the Prince that due to the lack of manpower the Tremere can no longer provide the full allotment of services it once did. Until such time as they are allowed to replenish their numbers all Thaumaturgical skill must be focused on maintaining the Chantry.

              We Need Ghouls, Lots of Ghouls
              The Prince has banned siring but unless I'm missing something there is no limitations on ghouling. Assuming a siege is coming it might be prudent to "levy a militia" so to speak. Basically start a campaign of ghouling mortals to pad out your numbers. As an additional bonus ghouls get a dot of Potence, and considering the lack of Physical Disciplines among the Tremere that additional combat bump added to a mortal already skilled in fighting (Dominate and Blood Bond can make criminals most valuable for this purpose). Meanwhile those mortals who might make prospective Tremere can instead be given basic tutelage in Thaumaturgy until such time as the ban is lifted.

              If you can't sire and the city is full of Caitiff perhaps the solution to the problem has already presented itself. Similar to the plan above but with a slightly different tact. Look into the Caitiff and see if any have valuable traits. Once you've identified the wheat from the chaff, approach these chosen clanless and make them the following offer. The Tremere are willing to adopt these Caitiff under the following provisions the Caitiff accepts a blood bond and the Caitiff agrees to be bound and serve the Tremere for a period of 21 years (play into the Caitiff's naivete of vampires and connection to mortals by playing up needing to be "adults"). The Tremere get a quick rise in immediately useful numbers, they can spin this as cleaning up the Prince's dereliction of duty in regards to Caitiff, and they might get some long term value from the best of who they adopt.

              There's Always a Bigger Fish
              The Camarilla is a hierarchy, from what you've described the Prince is remiss in a number of his duties. The city has not only encountered Sabbat (not even counting the Vozhd), there is a problem with Caitiff, and there was massive fighting between Camarilla members. The solution is to appeal to an Archon, if the Regent doesn't know one personally they should be able to contact up the pyramid and get that information.

              Don't let the Prince know this is being done, he's had his chance to be reasonable and has failed. Archons are not under the control of the Prince and if things are as bad as you say one will no doubt quickly pick up on it. Assuming the Prince doesn't get their shit together (and the Sabbat haven't attacked and really highlighted the issue) it may end up getting kicked further up. If a Justicar has to show up odds are in favor of the Prince either getting removed or finding himself severely chastised and limited. Of these options this is the closest to skirting the loyal idea (being loyal to the Camarilla over the Prince).


              • #22
                Originally posted by WilyQuixote View Post
                Now do you (or anyone else) have any suggestions for what a concerned Regent/Primogen might do to bolster his ranks and strengthen his position as per the OP?
                Have you considered requesting aid from Tremere in the cities near by. It would be in their best interest, as if your city falls, theirs may be next, and if your Chantry is weakened, political, physically, economically, theirs may suffer as well. See if they might be able to send a few Tremere to aid, which will not be breaking the Prince's law on Embracing. If the Prince might allow them, talk to him or her. If not, sneak them in?


                • #23
                  Deleted repost
                  Last edited by Beckett; 02-08-2018, 11:38 AM.


                  • #24
                    Deleted repost
                    Last edited by Beckett; 02-08-2018, 11:37 AM.


                    • #25
                      The rite of creation extends to ghouls as well.

                      I'm unsure if tremere will allow adoption.

                      There already was an archon who showed up. Doing this route again will have consequences I doubt regeant will want to deal with.

                      Calling in another chantry could lead to problems. If he does this and gets more people from another local city or Vienna what are the consequences?


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Pnizzle View Post
                        Calling in another chantry could lead to problems. If he does this and gets more people from another local city or Vienna what are the consequences?
                        ​The Tremere are a clan of pragmatists and the mutual blood bonding enforces a degree of loyalty. So with that in mind you can't look at Tremere as individuals nearly as much as they are a singular corporation. If one branch is under attack, the other sections add support if management gives the order.

                        ​You could make the argument that Vienna would cut their losses and write off the struggling chantry, but that is a waste of recruits, waste of time, and most importantly a great way to have the entire group go rogue, which Vienna would have to spend further resources on hunting down to ensure Thaumaturgy secrets stay secret. Sure there could be some reprimands for the Regent but the occasional bail out is the cost of doing business as it were.

                        ​Now if there was truly a degree of outright incompetence at play or worse betrayal, then some Tremere internal affairs problems may arise. But in the situation described thus far it sounds like the Regent and other Tremere went above and beyond their expected duty, they are being hamstrung by a local prince that is not of their clan, and they are in a situation where territory could be lost to the sabbat. All in all it sounds like them calling for assistance is the wise course of action.

                        ​Besides it really wouldn't be that much of a stretch to have a specialized coterie of Tremere and Gargoyles who move from hot zone to hot zone as a trouble squad on behalf of Vienna. The Tremere clan is just too practical to not have something like that on each major continent. Sure calling them in will prove costly for the Regent, but it is better to do that than lose territory, apprentices, and secrets due to hubris or stupidity.


                        • #27
                          Those are some great suggestions. As Pnizzle said an Archon did come to the city once already in the course of the Chronicle. I failed to mention this before because it didn't seem relevant but in hindsight perhaps I should have made mention of it. The Archon arrived the same time my PC did. In fact we both rode in on the same train though not together. I spotted her and followed but we were soon collected by the Sheriff and his entourage and escorted to the Prince. In the opening act I placed myself protectively between the Archon and the Sheriff, not knowing if this was an attack or not, but I probably should have gotten behind her (the Archon) instead if I was smart. I didn't know who she was though until after I had presented myself to the Prince and then she took her turn.

                          The Archon as it turned out was invited (summoned?) to the city at the request of one of the Primogen in the city following the Elysium fight. Which one I don't know. She was brought in to investigate the Prince's "abuse of power" I believe but the Prince is no fool and had his house in order as they say. Apparently she (the Archon) did not find anything damning enough to outright remove the Prince but the Archon did hold a vote by the Primogen Council to remove the Prince and replace him with someone else. It was a near thing with the deciding vote to either keep the Prince or oust him cast by a PC who had been fairly savvy up to this point and had managed through politics to get himself on the Council as a Primogen and thus had a vote. I say "savvy up to this point" because the PC forgot which way he was told (by the real Primogen of his clan) to vote and voted for the Prince instead of against. It was hilarious watching the fallout of that action let me tell you! Ever have your Primogen pissed off at you before?

                          With that business concluded the Archon admonished everyone in the room, Prince and Primogen alike, for not handling this matter themselves and left the city. So yeah inviting her, or another one, back to the city so soon after the last visit might not have the desired results. Especially if she were called back to adjudicate another "squabble" as it were. Remember that it has only been one year in game since the Archon was in town. Now with that being said my PC does have an in story plausible reason for contacting the Archon and getting her back to the city. She had tasked my PC with locating any Sabbat cells within the city. I'm guessing her reason for this was she knew I was brand new to the city and thus neutral towards everything going on.

                          Since I'm no dummy I readily agreed to assist the Archon. At the time she left I did not have any tangible evidence of Sabbat in the city and I didn't want to present to her with nothing more than rumors and gossip so she had no other reason to stick around. She didn't give me her phone number either, believe me I asked(!), and I have no direct way of getting in touch with her. Your suggestion of relaying a message to her through the main Chantry in Vienna might work though. It would take time but it could happen. I certainly have more to report to her now than I did at the time! I could bring her back under those auspices and while she was here make sure she witnesses some key shenanigans going on. If I did this right it would also keep the Regent's hands clean while still allowing him to direct the Archon where he desires.

                          It gives me something to think on in addition to my own ideas of how best to turn this bleak situation around. Still these are all great ideas! Keep them coming folks if you got any more!


                          • #28
                            The first solution to any Vampire related problem, doubly so in Politics - BOONS
                            Call in a boon, offer a boon. Promise that favour in the future; it's the currency of the Camarilla.
                            (Could offer one to the Prince, or to the other primogen depending on what you're trying to achieve)

                            Quite a few people have suggested bringing in Kindred from other cities; it's a perfect idea. The Prince might change them a boon for entering the city, but you can offer the same to the clanmate you convince to come over. This way your clan can get experienced kindred, and look for ones with skills that are missing in the city

                            Questions on knowing clan numbers? Since the Prince should know the numbers, others will probably too, Trivial Boon to the Harpy or Seneshal to get information, or a Nosferatu. Less than a trivial boon (if it's possible) to any other primogen if they don't hate you.
                            All acknowledged kidred in the city should be identified by most position holders in the city.
                            The ones that haven't got permission are a different matter.

                            Tremere Specifics? Wow, gets Easy with Tremere
                            1) Blood Thaumaturgy (That everyone has to learn usually) Blood Potency power can increase the generation of the user until it's sufficient to wake even an elder from Torpor. Regent is back in town.
                            2) You don't want a neonate to be embraced during a sabbat seige. A good "starting" Tremere has years studying in the Chantry before they're let out into the world.
                            2b) So you could possibly hide a neonate in the Chantry for Years without notice by the Prince.
                            3) You want a Warmage to be brought to town, someone specialising in combat Thaumaturgy, with as much experience dealing with the sabbat as possible.
                            4) I agree with Thoth on rounding up the caitiff, maybe for experiments, but gargoyles are a no-no. If any Tremere were caught with the knowledge of making them, the entire clan could be excommunicated from the Camarilla.
                            5) Tell the Prince that without filling your numbers you won't have time to assist the city; maintaining wards, scrying, creating bone of lies for investigations (Tailor to your Chantry's strengths) unless you had a few new acolytes to assist, especially with the Sabbat in town, you may need to double down to protect your own resources and won't be able to help the city. A prince should always be indebted to the Tremere for their services.

                            Pnizzle - Right of Creation as per the traditions does not (Normally; Officially. Your Prince is a massive control freak if this is the case) count to Ghouls. They don't normally need to be accounted for to authorities, so saying that one was created before or after the embargo.


                            • #29
                              One.. Why isn't the Elder who went into Torpor woken up. Tremere cheat and should be able to wake him up.. so you'd only be down one.

                              Two: The Tremere caught some sabbat members right? And you need beat sticks.. if only there were an appropriate ritual.. I'll just leave this right here..



                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Lian View Post
                                One.. Why isn't the Elder who went into Torpor woken up. Tremere cheat and should be able to wake him up.. so you'd only be down one.

                                Two: The Tremere caught some sabbat members right? And you need beat sticks.. if only there were an appropriate ritual.. I'll just leave this right here..

                                Creating Gargoyles will only get the Tremere killed. The Montmartre Pact of 1498 bans the Tremere from creating Gargoyles or keeping Gargoyles as slaves. Any Tremere caught creating a Gargoyle will be expelled from the Tremere and the Camarilla before being turned over to the "mercy" of any Gangrel or Nosferatu.