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  • #31
    I also forget, but creating a gargoyle requires the bodies of a Gangrel, Tzimisce, and Nosferatu, and either a 1 or 10 year "gestation" period.


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    • #32
      The thing is that technically the treaty only forbids gargoyle slaves and their creation. So one should always take care that the gargoyle brought fort has been well prepared beforehand to emphazise how s/he is working with the Tremere of her/his own free will and naturally they werent created recently, that is after all forbidden and every last ritual destroyed as per the treaty, but rather embraced by another of her/his kind.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Cynic01 View Post

        Creating Gargoyles will only get the Tremere killed. The Montmartre Pact of 1498 bans the Tremere from creating Gargoyles or keeping Gargoyles as slaves. Any Tremere caught creating a Gargoyle will be expelled from the Tremere and the Camarilla before being turned over to the "mercy" of any Gangrel or Nosferatu.
        And just like any whiff of infernalism will get you killed by the Josians/Inquisition and yet some how vampires fairly consistantly become infernal. Yes there's all sorts of things that you aren't allowed to do in Kindred society that people reguarly do. Yes they often are caught, but often enough they get away with it.

        And while Traditionally it does require Nos and Gangrel bits you can make it from two tzim!

        Originally posted by Beckett View Post
        I also forget, but creating a gargoyle requires the bodies of a Gangrel, Tzimisce, and Nosferatu, and either a 1 or 10 year "gestation" period.

        House Tremere says :1 to 3 Months. which makes sense as these things were meant to be faster than training up a whole new Tremere. Rites of blood says 1 month of torturing the cainites, 3 months of casting so 4 month. Still not even a year.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Lian View Post
          One.. Why isn't the Elder who went into Torpor woken up. Tremere cheat and should be able to wake him up.. so you'd only be down one.
          I had actually suggested this in game as my character but the ST ruled it wouldn't work. His interpretation of the rules. I didn't agree but he's the ST so that's how it is. Maybe after he reads this though he will reconsider.

          As for the gargoyle ideas... I love where you're going with it and of the two Sabbat that were captured one was a Nosferatu and I strongly suspect the second was a Gangrel. However I must concur with the others in that creating a gargoyle will bring down all kinds of trouble and grief on the chantry that it does not need right now no matter its current plight. Not to mention the time it would take to create a gargoyle. It would take time we just do not have. I still love the idea!

          I do have plans for those two Sabbat though, provided that second vampire is a Gangrel, and if I can convince the Regent to turn them over to me.
          Last edited by WilyQuixote; 02-10-2018, 04:36 AM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Lian View Post
            House Tremere says :1 to 3 Months. which makes sense as these things were meant to be faster than training up a whole new Tremere. Rites of blood says 1 month of torturing the cainites, 3 months of casting so 4 month. Still not even a year.
            Perhaps you are right. I could have sworn it was either 1 or 10 years, (which was why there had never been that many Gargyles), but I could be wrong.


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            • #36
              @ WilyQuixote

              Perhaps it would help us give some ideas if you could share your character's abilities. It is a bit difficult to offer suggestions when we don't really have the full story or your capabilities. Also, some info on your coterie?

              Would it be possible to travel to another Domain and Embrace there, (with permission), to bypasse the current situation in your city?

              It still seems very odd to me that the Gangrel would act this way. I don't think they have joined the Sabbat, from what you have said, but I do think there is certainly something else going on here. Usually, as a Clan, the Gangrel don't really care too much about the Prince's permission for either entering a Domain or for Embracing. They are generally the exception because of the way they work and "big boy/girl rules". The only thing I can reasonably imagine are that the Gangrel are busy with some other threat, are trying to discuss it, (but that usually does not take long), or have already begun to Embrace, and are testing their Fledglings in the normal Gangrel style.

              My mind keeps coming back to thinking maybe the Prince has either been replaced or turned to the Sabbat, as he/she seems to be handicapping the Domain.

              Putting all the gish in one basket (Ventrue), is far too risky, in my opinion for the little real benefit, and has the obvious downside of curbing competition and improvement. This would be even more worrisome if the Ventrue consolidated the Domain's influence after the attacks that destabilized the Gangrel, Tremere, Nosferatu, other took place, indicating it might have been deliberate.

              Have you considered simply going to ask the Gangrel themselves?


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              • #37
                Once the blood leaves their bodies it reverts back to its original generation so therefore will not work on reviving. It specifically says you can not use it to make stronger ghouls and vampires too.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                  @ WilyQuixote

                  Perhaps it would help us give some ideas if you could share your character's abilities. It is a bit difficult to offer suggestions when we don't really have the full story or your capabilities. Also, some info on your coterie?
                  I certainly could do that but remember that it was not I who was the originator of this thread and it was the Story Teller looking for suggestions of options that a Regent in this predicament might be able to take.

                  I have every confidence in my character and I feel I have some really great ideas for how to see the chantry through the coming days... er nights. MY real issue is that up this point in the story I have had... lets say an adversarial relationship with the Regent. Last session it was revealed he had somehow learned my deepest darkest secret and was really upset upon learning it. I still don't know how he learned this. It's a convoluted story element but the key point of it is that I have the Unbondable merit as a Tremere. Yes I (and the ST) know that this is not normally allowed per the rules of the game. There are extenuating circumstances at work here.

                  My PC is actually this guy... http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...re-of-survivor


                  The biggest change needed to be noted from that Thread to this Thread is that my PC no longer has Visceratika. My PC was diablerized (by a Tremere) in the course of the year that was advanced through to now. The ST had asked me for permission to do so beforehand as it all happened off screen. In the interests of telling a good story I agreed. My PC had immense willpower though and won the psychic contest in much the same manner as Mithras did to Monty. I did get Thaumaturgy 5 in exchange for losing Visceratika so it wasn't like I lost out really.

                  Back to the problem at hand... The Regent learned he had an unbonded Tremere under his command and tried to reassert control over me. He put a magical macguffin in my neck that would ensure slavish devotion to the chantry and left me alone with the fledgling (PC). Up to this point I had been steadfast in my portrayal that this guy would not be controlled or manipulated by anyone without extreme effort on their part.

                  So after the Regent left us alone in the room I left the chantry and went out to the outskirts of the city. I took an iron rod, placed it in a fire until it was white hot. Then after a rotschrek roll which I rolled 5 successes on I plunged the white hot rod into my neck to burn the macguffin out! Yeah my guy is that extreme.

                  So my Regent and I have some trust issues that we need to work out. I am hoping this upcoming siege will be a good opportunity to smooth over our relationship problems. Bonds of kinship forged in battle as it were. Time will tell though. If anyone is still interested I'll post an update for how things turned out.

                  Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                  Would it be possible to travel to another Domain and Embrace there, (with permission), to bypasse the current situation in your city?
                  This is certainly possible. The problem as I see it though has already been mentioned by others on here. Embracing a "Tremere" takes time and training to get them worthy of the name "Tremere". We simply don't have that kind of time. Now we could enlist aid from other chantries. There are three major cities within an 8 hour drive of the campaign city. I personally think Thoth's assessment was accurate as stated here...

                  Originally posted by Thoth View Post

                  ​The Tremere are a clan of pragmatists and the mutual blood bonding enforces a degree of loyalty. So with that in mind you can't look at Tremere as individuals nearly as much as they are a singular corporation. If one branch is under attack, the other sections add support if management gives the order.

                  ​You could make the argument that Vienna would cut their losses and write off the struggling chantry, but that is a waste of recruits, waste of time, and most importantly a great way to have the entire group go rogue, which Vienna would have to spend further resources on hunting down to ensure Thaumaturgy secrets stay secret. Sure there could be some reprimands for the Regent but the occasional bail out is the cost of doing business as it were.

                  ​Now if there was truly a degree of outright incompetence at play or worse betrayal, then some Tremere internal affairs problems may arise. But in the situation described thus far it sounds like the Regent and other Tremere went above and beyond their expected duty, they are being hamstrung by a local prince that is not of their clan, and they are in a situation where territory could be lost to the sabbat. All in all it sounds like them calling for assistance is the wise course of action.

                  ​Besides it really wouldn't be that much of a stretch to have a specialized coterie of Tremere and Gargoyles who move from hot zone to hot zone as a trouble squad on behalf of Vienna. The Tremere clan is just too practical to not have something like that on each major continent. Sure calling them in will prove costly for the Regent, but it is better to do that than lose territory, apprentices, and secrets due to hubris or stupidity.
                  I think the Regent is worried about losing respect among his peers on the Regent level, and even worse, having the Lord of this area losing confidence in his Regent's abilities to manage the chantry. So if the Regent were to send out the call for aide what would some likely fallout scenarios for the Regent. Things like this will affect his judgement and decisions.

                  Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                  Have you considered simply going to ask the Gangrel themselves?
                  I have and I will be approaching the Gangrel, hopefully in the next session, about what is going on. I agree with you in that I don't think they joined the Sabbat but there is definitely something else going on we are unaware of. None of the players are playing a Gangrel so their actions as a clan are all a big mystery at this time. Still I have an plot element I can pursue to contact the Gangrel and will be making use of it at the first opportunity.
                  Last edited by WilyQuixote; 02-10-2018, 05:24 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by WilyQuixote View Post

                    I had actually suggested this in game as my character but the ST ruled it wouldn't work. His interpretation of the rules. I didn't agree but he's the ST so that's how it is. Maybe after he reads this though he will reconsider.

                    As for the gargoyle ideas... I love where you're going with it and of the two Sabbat that were captured one was a Nosferatu and I strongly suspect the second was a Gangrel. However I must concur with the others in that creating a gargoyle will bring down all kinds of trouble and grief on the chantry that it does not need right now no matter its current plight. Not to mention the time it would take to create a gargoyle. It would take time we just do not have. I still love the idea!

                    I do have plans for those two Sabbat though, provided that second vampire is a Gangrel, and if I can convince the Regent to turn them over to me.

                    Unless there are other Gargoyles nearby or your chantry is hopelessly compromised no one will no you made a gargoyle as long as you have the right story for why he shows up. Depending on the ST's choice you will have to take between one to 4 months to do it. Which is actually not much worse than embrace for other clans would be.

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                    • #40
                      Im pretty sure anything at all to do with Gargoyles will be a terrible idea.

                      Create Gargoyles = pissing of the Gangrel, Nosferatu, Camarilla, and Tremere Clans, probably in that order in the situation.

                      Trying to bring in Gargoyles from elsewhere is a huge risk, and most likely will both fan the flames as well as permanently kill an chance of any Tremere status or respect in the local area. It eould also very likely raise a crap load of red flags that both the Inner Circle and Council of Seven would take note of, and I doubt from their perspective any Domain is worth it.

                      Something to keep in mind as well, is one of the most importamt keys for the Gargoyles even working in the Dark Ages was the den mother, something most likely the local, even regional modern Tremere can not replicate.
                      Last edited by Beckett; 02-11-2018, 03:06 PM.


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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                        Im pretty sure anything at all to do with Gargoyles will be a terrible idea.
                        This is not suggested as a safe plan. its suggested as a High Risk High Reward plan. But that seems to be the situation he's stuck in safe isn't going to cut it.

                        Create Gargoyles = pissing of the Gangrel, Nosferatu, Camarilla, and Tremere Clans, probably in that order in the situation.
                        IF you get caught. I will say it again. Both major sects have a whole organization dedicated to routing out infernalists. They wouldn't need them if it was so damned easy to find them. Now how would the Gangrel and Nos know what you are doing?

                        1. If you use people they know. Don't use local Gangrel or Nos who aren't sabbat.

                        2. Other Gargoyles are in the city who will show up for the ritual completion. IF there were other local gargoyles we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

                        3. The chantry is hopelessly compromised. You have auspex in clan tremere someone damn well better be checking for Nos sneaking into your hidden secret chambers.

                        4. The elaborate story you have of said Gargoyle's past is seen through. Now this is probably the more serious issue but you have time to work on it.


                        Trying to bring in Gargoyles from elsewhere is a huge risk, and most likely will both fan the flames as well as permanently kill an chance of any Tremere status or respect in the local area. It eould also very likely raise a crap load of red flags that both the Inner Circle and Council of Seven would take note of, and I doubt from their perspective any Domain is worth it.
                        Plenty of Free Gargoyles as of Lore of the Bloodlines choose to work for the Tremere of theirown accord as mercenaries. So much so that it is seen as a status symbol among the Tremere to have yourown Gargoyle. Them suddenly having a Gargoyle would not be a big deal according to canon, now they'd need to get the prince's Hospitality but that is part of the story.

                        Of course going out and Recruiting some Free Gargoyles is a possibility too, but going out and recruiting mercenary kindred from outside the city has always been an option.






                        Something to keep in mind as well, is one of the most importamt keys for the Gargoyles even working in the Dark Ages was the den mother, something most likely the local, even regional modern Tremere can not replicate.
                        Of course, as I said there are ALL sorts of bad sides to this.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Lian View Post
                          This is not suggested as a safe plan. its suggested as a High Risk High Reward plan. But that seems to be the situation he's stuck in safe isn't going to cut it.

                          IF you get caught. I will say it again. Both major sects have a whole organization dedicated to routing out infernalists. They wouldn't need them if it was so damned easy to find them. Now how would the Gangrel and Nos know what you are doing?

                          1. If you use people they know. Don't use local Gangrel or Nos who aren't sabbat.
                          Um, when there are freaking Gargoyles in town. Especially not long after both the Nosferatu and Gangrel have begun to disappear from Kindred Society recently.

                          Originally posted by Lian View Post
                          2. Other Gargoyles are in the city who will show up for the ritual completion. IF there were other local gargoyles we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.
                          I think we might have very different ideas on just how common Gargoyles are. To me, modern nights, they are extremely rare, moreso than many other Bloodlines, comparitively.

                          Originally posted by Lian View Post
                          3. The chantry is hopelessly compromised. You have auspex in clan tremere someone damn well better be checking for Nos sneaking into your hidden secret chambers.
                          I think you misunderstand. Im notvreally talking about anyone sneaking in and finding out. I am talking about there being Gargoyles in town, who presumably will be doing something relavent and be spotted at some point, which will most likely lead to a shitstorm.

                          Originally posted by Lian View Post
                          4. The elaborate story you have of said Gargoyle's past is seen through. Now this is probably the more serious issue but you have time to work on it.

                          Plenty of Free Gargoyles as of Lore of the Bloodlines choose to work for the Tremere of theirown accord as mercenaries. So much so that it is seen as a status symbol among the Tremere to have yourown Gargoyle. Them suddenly having a Gargoyle would not be a big deal according to canon, now they'd need to get the prince's Hospitality but that is part of the story.

                          Of course going out and Recruiting some Free Gargoyles is a possibility too, but going out and recruiting mercenary kindred from outside the city has always been an option.
                          Of course, as I said there are ALL sorts of bad sides to this.
                          It is not such a big deal, except that they are pretty rare, and to be honest, I do not really see any reason to try to either create or bring in Gargoyles over other Tremere, or even other allies to the Clan. It is a huge risk, but I personally just do not see the payoff being close to good enough to risk it.

                          The other thing to also consider is if the Sabbat has started a crusade, (which sounds like it is already into, which means they have already studied and tested the city), Tremere bringing in Gargoyles is also an escalation of force, asking for Sabbat/Tzimisce monstrosities worse than the sewers.

                          I could be wrong, and it really depends on the style of game for what is true and possible. I don't mean to ruin the idea, it is just, from my pov, could be a really bad idea.


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                          • #43
                            I remember seeing it mentioned you have a Gangrel (Sabbat) captured. Confirm their clan.

                            Now, force that Gangrel to start embracing people chosen by you (the Tremere) to reach that tally the Prince wants.

                            Bond those newly embraced Gangrel. Have them all walk into Elysium and declare their clan for everyone to know.

                            In addition to that, I would seriously consider getting into contact with Vienna. Tell them outright one of your pillars (a Tremere elder) has been put into torpor after being attacked by a Sabbat pack. Seriously, push for any help you can get. Outright tell them the Prince is incompetent and hamstringing the entire domain with some ridiculous rule against embracing and ghouling (despite the Sabbat insurgency).

                            I would also get that Archon to come back (under the proviso of helping them with the Sabbat). Stage things so that the Archon and yourself are attending Elysium, and that's when the newly embraced Gangrel waltz into Elysium to declare their numbers.

                            Now, the Prince either has to acknowledge them (and thus you can finally start embracing again) or he has to make a rule that they're all illegal embraces and have them executed (all of this in front of the Archon, making the Prince look like a clown running a circus - he ain't no ringmaster).

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Pnizzle View Post
                              The rite of creation extends to ghouls as well.

                              I'm unsure if tremere will allow adoption.

                              There already was an archon who showed up. Doing this route again will have consequences I doubt regeant will want to deal with.

                              Calling in another chantry could lead to problems. If he does this and gets more people from another local city or Vienna what are the consequences?
                              Pnizzle We started in the original post not knowing the clans involved, and how exactly the Gangrel were filibustering embraces. Later we learned about the Tremere elder going beddy-bye. Later we learned about the ghoul embargo. Later we learned that an Archon has already put the seal of approval on this sinking ship.

                              Before we go further, are there any other weird facts omitted we need to know about? Any other surprises? Was the archon the prince's sire, so no one puts much stock in her assessment? Is the city in a remote location, like Honolulu, so back-up is difficult to call in? Has Vienna already sent directives about the situation? Have the Malkavians announced they are evacuating the city? Were the Giovanni seen stock-piling weapons? Anything germane at all?

                              Exactly what does "overpopulated" mean? If a metro area has a million people, then technically 12 vampires might be over-populated, but 50 would be insane. What are the Prince's rules about visiting vampires and vampires embraced elsewhere moving to the city? What does the scourge do with random un-presented vampires; instant kill or just bring them in? When is the next Elysium, and now attending that Elysium is a high-risk activity, is anyone, at all, planning to go... besides the Sabbat, obviously?

                              I understand if there are secrets from the players you can't discuss, but is there anything else the players would know about that the commenters here need to know in order to offer input?

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                              • #45
                                I love Jack 's idea of forcing the Gangrel embrace. Really, that's good! Just make sure those embraced are believably appropriate to Gangrel sensibilities, while also being sympathetic to the Tremere world-view. Military officers who enjoy the outdoors, or field biologists with an interest in the occult, for example. If one of them is a mortal important to the the Prince or a Primogen in some way, so much the better. Would the Prince really order his own god-daughter destroyed?

                                The PC who was the deciding vote in retaining the Prince, umm, what level of boon was he granted for not removing the Prince? Life boon might be a bit strong, but it should be close. I mean, if a pc walked into Elysium and announced they wanted to be Prince and were ready to pay the prestation to make it happen, what would it cost? It should be comparable to that.

                                Surely, that boon would be enough to break the embracing logjam, or at least allow creating ghouls under the current war footing... assuming the pc primogen is on the same "team" as the two pc Tremere.

                                Or, maybe the PC primogen should "help" the caitiff. Select the least clueless among them. Take him under your wing, blood bond him, and then call in the boon held over the Prince by having the Prince give the Caitiff a seat on the Primogen council, and acknowledge the local Caitiff. This would cause major political ripples for the Prince who allows it among the more conservative members of his clan and sect, bring the Caitiff as a group into service defending the city, and gain the PC primogen two votes on the council. Plus, boons from all the Caitiff. (Just make really, really sure the Caitiff are just standard losers, and not Sabbat spies.)

                                As for the Chantry, I would forget the Gargoyle thing. Too complicated, too many risks, too resource intensive. Last thing the Tremere need is more headaches right now.

                                Stick with the basics of preparing for battle, as mentioned by other posters, above.

                                Don't ignore mundane preparations, like Dominating the neighborhood watch into acting as an intel op for the chantry.

                                If anyone in the chantry has enough knowledge of the Sabbat, start surveilling likely operational bases of the sort they prefer. Old warehouses, underground surgeons, goth clubs, cemeteries, and so forth. This can be done by third parties, btw. Just call in to 911 about a loud party or suspicious gunshots around the locations. Consider setting some forest fires to flush out Gangrel antitribu... if some local Gangrel get burnt in the process, oh well.

                                If there are any hunters active in the city, put them on red alert. Dominating one of them, or a witness who is able to contact them, into being on the lookout for people transporting truckloads of dirt or lacking a reflection might lead to problems for the Sabbat.

                                If you have the ability to, make the infrastructure of the city somewhat unreliable. Unexplained sink-holes, toll booth workers calling out sick, brief utility outages, traffic accidents that tie up highways, damaged cell towers, fires in the local blood bank, and "dangerous escaped criminals" that lead to city-wide curfews or increased police patrols are problems locals can easily work around, given knowledge of the terrain. Invading Sabbat may not know alternative routes, as it were. You'll never know if the chaos you created actually interrupted a sabbat plan, but anything that makes it harder for the invaders is good for you.

                                Consider abandoning your chantry, and using it as a trap. Move all the most valuable equipment to a new, temporary location... or cache those resources around the city... then leave an unmistakable trail of bread crumbs leading to the abandoned chantry, which is rigged with thermal explosives.

                                While you're at it, set up a few false chantries as decoys. Just pick nine likely locations and hire or Dominate people to "work" there. If there are ten buildings in town that look like a chantry, there's only a 10% chance the sabbat will attack the real one first.

                                Do you have a techie available? Install a few dozen (or hundred) webcams around town, at locations near large reflective surfaces, like department store windows, which feed to a central server. Either use ai software to examine the footage for people who don't leave the appropriate reflection, or just hire temps to review the footage. This could suss out any visiting Lasombra. Consider cameras with thermal imaging capabilities at high traffic areas, like airports, train stations, bridges, toll booths and the like. AI can scan for humanoid forms with low body temperatures.

                                Keep a very close eye on local missing persons cases. This could be a clue to either blood feasts or mass embraces. Don't forget other sources of missing blood, like slaughterhouses and farms.

                                Consider taking the fight to them. Where is the nearest Sabbat held city? Dominate a local extremist group in your city to bomb several locations in the Sabbat city. Focus on sites whose destruction has the potential to disrupt sabbat logistics, like blood banks, hospitals, airports, highway choke-points, bridges, and sewage/drainage systems. It's highly unlikely any Sabbat will be injured or killed directly, but it may make them pay more attention to their rear than advancing. Again, anything that creates chaos for the enemy is good for you.

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