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  • #46
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post

    Pnizzle We started in the original post not knowing the clans involved, and how exactly the Gangrel were filibustering embraces. Later we learned about the Tremere elder going beddy-bye. Later we learned about the ghoul embargo. Later we learned that an Archon has already put the seal of approval on this sinking ship.

    Before we go further, are there any other weird facts omitted we need to know about? Any other surprises? Was the archon the prince's sire, so no one puts much stock in her assessment? Is the city in a remote location, like Honolulu, so back-up is difficult to call in? Has Vienna already sent directives about the situation? Have the Malkavians announced they are evacuating the city? Were the Giovanni seen stock-piling weapons? Anything germane at all?

    Exactly what does "overpopulated" mean? If a metro area has a million people, then technically 12 vampires might be over-populated, but 50 would be insane. What are the Prince's rules about visiting vampires and vampires embraced elsewhere moving to the city? What does the scourge do with random un-presented vampires; instant kill or just bring them in? When is the next Elysium, and now attending that Elysium is a high-risk activity, is anyone, at all, planning to go... besides the Sabbat, obviously?

    I understand if there are secrets from the players you can't discuss, but is there anything else the players would know about that the commenters here need to know in order to offer input?
    I don't want to reveal more because my players are actively reading this. Plus they're interpretations may or may not be accurate.

    There is no scourge at this time. A vote was made to reenact the position but was overturned by majority. (Foreshadowing)

    There are about 80 Camarilla. And there are rumors of at least over 75 caitiff.

    These are plot hooks for the players to pull the string on and find out why the dynamic is this way. Not scoff at it and overlook it.

    Public knowledge pieces:
    Old gangrel primogen was exiled for suspected murder of a caitiff(pc's failed to prove either way) and violence while at elysium.
    Remaining gangrel clan rebelled against prince at elysium and resorted to violence. Prince and sheriff snuffed them.
    Toreador npc primogen called shennanigans on prince and entire elysium broke into civil war. 1 person from each side died.
    Toreador primogen/keeper was removed of her titles by the prince when challenged about his reactions.
    PC won election to be toreador primogen.
    Archon came to town. Lots of closed door meetings.
    Archon left and prince announced new rules.
    Year went by. No new gangrel. Lots of new immigrants. Lots of frustration against gangrel clan.
    Sabbat presence is known. Prince formed an inquisition coterie against them(PCs and allies)

    This post purpose is to help me give ideas from the viewpoints of primogen leaders to outwit the roadblock of rules. I take into account what they could or could not know so that I don't metagame.

    Comment


    • #47
      There are about 80 Camarilla. And there are rumors of at least over 75 caitiff.
      And what is the mortal population?

      Remaining gangrel clan rebelled against prince at elysium and resorted to violence. Prince and sheriff snuffed them.
      So, all the Gangrel who were present at the Elysium were destroyed? (Or, at least, appear to have been destroyed to the pcs.)

      This post purpose is to help me give ideas from the viewpoints of primogen leaders to outwit the roadblock of rules. I take into account what they could or could not know so that I don't metagame.
      Well, the main way I see for the Primogen to overturn (or relax) the rule about the embrace is for the new Toreador primogen, who voted in favor of allowing the prince to retain his position, to simply demand that he change the rule. If it weren't for that pc, after all, the Prince would have been unemployed a year ago. The Prince owes him. Big. And publicly.

      If he refuses to change the rule, make a new motion for removal on grounds that he has violated basic rules of prestation and must be declared a debtor. Now, actually removing a Prince is harder than just voting. But, I'm guessing the wider clan and sect might step in at that point, to preserve the prestation system, and, thereby, their own wealth in favors held.

      To smooth the transition, the primogen should have an ambitious, young, and pliable Ventrue selected and ready to replace the current Prince. This creates an interest bloc within Clan Ventrue who will support the change-over, effectively hobbling their ability to present a united front in support of the old Prince.

      In the unlikely event no Ventrue is willing to take the job, find a new Prince outside the Ventrue, thereby removing the city from Ventrue control entirely. I hear there's a former Toreador primogen who is recently unemployed and looking for a job.

      Rumors of that should get Clan Ventrue on-board with replacing the Prince with another Ventrue, who agrees to relax the onerous rule. Half a loaf being better than none at all, and all that.

      Just make it clear that since the new Prince was hand-picked by a majority of the Primogen, he owes them his position in a prestation sense. Also, make it clear to any dissenting members of the primogen that they can make it a unanimous vote, if they want to be part of the group who is owed that favor. Basically, fifo.

      btw, it might be nice if the incoming Prince has some military experience.

      Comment


      • #48
        I used the current population for LA and based vamp population control numbers based on the books recommendation and purposefully added enough caitiffs as for a side plot to make it an issue.

        Half the Gangrel were killed and the other half were torpored. A brujah pc liberated one from torpor(under the "prince's care") just in the nick of time to make an election which was an epic dramatic turn in the plot.

        OOC the pc toreador primogen is now an NPC. (After a failed garou encounter). So imagine everyone's faces when I show he is still alive. They all have theories. It was fun to watch their reaction.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Beckett View Post
          Um, when there are freaking Gargoyles in town. Especially not long after both the Nosferatu and Gangrel have begun to disappear from Kindred Society recently.
          I am not telling them to use Nos or Gangrel who are a part of the Camarilla, hell I'm not even suggesting they use Nos and Gangrel. I am suggesting as they are dealing with a sabbat Siege grab tzim and random shovelheads.



          I think we might have very different ideas on just how common Gargoyles are. To me, modern nights, they are extremely rare, moreso than many other Bloodlines, comparitively.
          I think we definately have an inverted view, as I consider Gargoyles one of the larger bloodlines among the Camarilla. They are easily dwarfed by the Pillar clans, and assamites post schism along with catiff but out number LATs, DoCs, Kiyasd, Samedi and Settites. Ravnos is more a profoundly regional issue.





          I think you misunderstand. Im notvreally talking about anyone sneaking in and finding out. I am talking about there being Gargoyles in town, who presumably will be doing something relavent and be spotted at some point, which will most likely lead to a shitstorm.
          That is never treated as the case in any book. Every location that has a Gargoyle is generally treated as benefit for clan Tremere. We can comment on Edition drift but even the Gargoyle bloodlines chapter doesn't say anything like this.


          It is not such a big deal, except that they are pretty rare, and to be honest, I do not really see any reason to try to either create or bring in Gargoyles over other Tremere, or even other allies to the Clan. It is a huge risk, but I personally just do not see the payoff being close to good enough to risk it.
          And I think you are profoundly under estimating their numbers especially in the cam and profoundly overestimating the "Nos and gangrel see a Gargoyle raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawRRR HATE TREMERE!" Either they are rare enough people don't know what the fuck that is(and if he presents himself to the prince beforehand they control the narrative)

          I don't at all think they should release him to even feed on hisown without having a story setup to cover him. And I don't think they should keep it a super secret.



          The other thing to also consider is if the Sabbat has started a crusade, (which sounds like it is already into, which means they have already studied and tested the city), Tremere bringing in Gargoyles is also an escalation of force, asking for Sabbat/Tzimisce monstrosities worse than the sewers.
          I don't see the Sabbat as Reactionary. They are proactive with the Crazy shit. They aren't going to be "hey we weren't going to force them to spend their resources on the Masquerade.. but Gargoyles..." If they send in crazy shit its going to be going in no matter what.



          I could be wrong, and it really depends on the style of game for what is true and possible. I don't mean to ruin the idea, it is just, from my pov, could be a really bad idea.
          I am not at all saying "this is an idea that will work perfectly with no serious risks" I am saying this is a dangerous and audacious idea the likes of which an Unbound Tremere might pull. The character is already dangerously rogue and a risk to the clan and probably on their hit list as they know he is both: Unbound to the Pyramid and Unbindable to the Pyramid.

          The character is litterally living on Borrowed time. Playing soft and reasonable is going to get him killed because he is a known Rogue. He probably needs to at the least kill the Regent to survive. He won't be in a worse situation if he gets caught doing something illegal on the Tremere end as his very existence is against their nature. Loyal Gargoyles help. Even being caught and having his chantry destroyed.. means he might be able to escape in the chaos and come back as someone else/join the anarchs etc.

          Getting more Tremere from outside the city.. actively puts him in greater danger as they might discover his secret.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Jack View Post
            I remember seeing it mentioned you have a Gangrel (Sabbat) captured. Confirm their clan.
            Originally posted by Jack View Post

            Now, force that Gangrel to start embracing people chosen by you (the Tremere) to reach that tally the Prince wants.

            Bond those newly embraced Gangrel. Have them all walk into Elysium and declare their clan for everyone to know.


            I simply can not tell you how much I love this idea! It made me laugh when I read it. Bloody brilliant!

            Unfortunately I don't think it would it work and would very likely get the Prince really angry with clan Tremere. It might still be worth it just to see the look on his face when he has to acknowledge that the Regent honored his law to the letter if not the spirit. He would not let such a flagrant act of disrespect go unanswered I assure you. We might not pay for immediately but there would come a night when we would have to answer for it!



            Originally posted by Lian View Post

            I am not at all saying "this is an idea that will work perfectly with no serious risks" I am saying this is a dangerous and audacious idea the likes of which an Unbound Tremere might pull. The character is already dangerously rogue and a risk to the clan and probably on their hit list as they know he is both: Unbound to the Pyramid and Unbindable to the Pyramid.

            The character is litterally living on Borrowed time. Playing soft and reasonable is going to get him killed because he is a known Rogue. He probably needs to at the least kill the Regent to survive. He won't be in a worse situation if he gets caught doing something illegal on the Tremere end as his very existence is against their nature. Loyal Gargoyles help. Even being caught and having his chantry destroyed.. means he might be able to escape in the chaos and come back as someone else/join the anarchs etc.

            Getting more Tremere from outside the city.. actively puts him in greater danger as they might discover his secret.
            Yeah you hit the nail on the head here Lian. I don't think the gargoyle idea will work personally but I still love the idea. Mainly because of my character's backstory. It would be so appropriate! The biggest road block to seeing it through though is the fact that I simply do not know the ritual. If I can find it in the chantry library I can totally learn it since I have Thaumaturgy 5 but I have to find it first.

            As you rightly pointed out though I am living on borrowed time here. The Regent has been wanting to kill me for while now but I keep finding ways to make myself needed/useful. I harbor no illusions though that I will be terminated as soon as it is prudent to do so. Even the player of the fledgling, a complete newbie to VtM, has told me as much, saying "I think your screwed". He doesn't know everything but he watches and even he can see the writing on the wall.

            For my part I am thoroughly enjoying this chronicle. Everyone on here has provided some excellent ideas and made me reconsider a few of my own about how to proceed from here. Hopefully the Storyteller got some good ideas from this as well.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by WilyQuixote View Post
              Yeah you hit the nail on the head here Lian. I don't think the gargoyle idea will work personally but I still love the idea. Mainly because of my character's backstory. It would be so appropriate! The biggest road block to seeing it through though is the fact that I simply do not know the ritual. If I can find it in the chantry library I can totally learn it since I have Thaumaturgy 5 but I have to find it first.
              Its not the only horribly illegal act you could do. The general idea is of course to get all the Tremere in the domain potentially complicit in an act that allow you to counter blackmail them so they don't hand you over to Tremere secret police. Or you need such an insane scandal that everyone gets killed and you can fake your death.

              Either way the point is that you are litterally the reason why clan tremere is bound to each other. You are an objective lesson in this.


              As you rightly pointed out though I am living on borrowed time here. The Regent has been wanting to kill me for while now but I keep finding ways to make myself needed/useful. I harbor no illusions though that I will be terminated as soon as it is prudent to do so. Even the player of the fledgling, a complete newbie to VtM, has told me as much, saying "I think your screwed". He doesn't know everything but he watches and even he can see the writing on the wall.
              I though he did kill you, it just didn't take.




              For my part I am thoroughly enjoying this chronicle. Everyone on here has provided some excellent ideas and made me reconsider a few of my own about how to proceed from here. Hopefully the Storyteller got some good ideas from this as well.
              It sounds fun indeed. I'm just suggesting going off on the deep end because of the already potential to have the character be destroyed. Even if you fail you go out like a boss. That's my personal reaction to seeing a characters number coming up, so I wouldn't suggest this at all if it weren't for the situation you were in.
              Last edited by Lian; 02-13-2018, 01:37 AM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by WilyQuixote View Post
                Originally posted by Jack View Post
                I remember seeing it mentioned you have a Gangrel (Sabbat) captured. Confirm their clan.




                Originally posted by Jack View Post

                Now, force that Gangrel to start embracing people chosen by you (the Tremere) to reach that tally the Prince wants.

                Bond those newly embraced Gangrel. Have them all walk into Elysium and declare their clan for everyone to know.





                I simply can not tell you how much I love this idea! It made me laugh when I read it. Bloody brilliant!

                Unfortunately I don't think it would it work and would very likely get the Prince really angry with clan Tremere. It might still be worth it just to see the look on his face when he has to acknowledge that the Regent honored his law to the letter if not the spirit. He would not let such a flagrant act of disrespect go unanswered I assure you. We might not pay for immediately but there would come a night when we would have to answer for it!
                You have Dominate in clan. march them in under their own steam and have them demand that they are recognised. No need to sponsor them or advertise any Tremere relationship to that happening.

                Other Ideas

                -Use Taste of Blood (Level 1 Thaum) to confirm generation - Find someone in the city or a Tremere out of the city with sufficent Generation to wake them.

                -With your history (From Survivor Nature Discussion) Do you have any contacts with other Tremere or proper Gargoyles (Not Failures like you ;P ) Where you might, legitimately, call them in.
                Most modern Vampires outside of the Tremere wouldn't know about the history of how Gargoyles were made; it was probably a grandsire or great grandsire that was around when it happened. Not the Active ones (in most cases)

                -Maybe use your experience in your previous body as a Caitiff to seek out the caitiff and turn them to your side, working for the Tremere. Recruit some muscle and it might only cost you vouching for them to the prince. (After Thaumaturgy checks and Dominate ensuring loyalty)

                -IF the Harpy/ City calls the prince on reneging on Boons, all boons that the Prince HOLDS on other vampires become void. So he'd not have any favours to pull, and it wouldn't be worth the effort to be owed to him. It would be a good way to out the Prince, if you wanted to do that. But a power vacuum is a dangerous thing.

                Comment


                • #53
                  I was thinking, your Tremere superior just sort of discovered you are unbondable.

                  Curious how exactly that happened, particularly in a definitive sense. I know there are paths and rituals to find existing bonds and similar details, but, off the top of my head Im not sure of any that reveal facts like that. I could be wrong.

                  There is one way I can think of, is if the Tremere had attempted to secretly Blood Bond you, spiking your drink, Dominating the memory away, etc...

                  There is also a few things to consider, as to exactly why you are unbondable... perhaps even you don't know. I recall it being mentioned it was special circumstances, so maybe you do.

                  1.) You can't be bound, because you are already Blood Bound.

                  2.) You can't be Blood Bound because you have partaken in the Vaulderie. This adds an interesting side effect as, if you truely are a Tremere,... this should give you a special mark identifying you as an Antitribu, which, since you don't have, means you are not actually Tremere at all. (If your character does not know this, makes me wonder where exactly these Caitiff are coming from, and know exactly how to hide from the Cam...., just saying).

                  3.) You are simply unbondable, which is kind of boring, comparitively, and something I would suspect would have been discovered long ago.

                  4.) It was discovered by other means than attempting to Bond you, which could be a bit questionable. What exactly were they checking for, and why?


                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Mr curious here drank the cup multiple times and touched certain artifacts giving regeant plenty of time to study his blood.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      WilyQuixote

                      As I see it you have five options to survive. They're all extreme long-shots.
                      1. Research the state of affairs with Gargoyles, and get proof. Just having a communique from Vienna refusing to teach you the ritual to create them implies they still have the ritual. Set up a dead man's switch so that if anything happens to you, the truth is made public... well, public to the Gangrel and Nosferatu. Let it be known, through channels, that you are not worth killing.
                      2. Join the Sabbat. Vienna may know you are unbondable. The Sabbat do not. They are not exactly friendly to new recruits, but if in the process of filling out your application you hand them the Chantry, and the other Tremere in town, well, who knows, you might even negotiate starting as True Sabbat. If nothing else, you know Thaumaturgy five, so you are basically a walking cannon. If in this setting the Tremere anti have been destroyed, they are hurting for thaumaturges and should jump at the offer.
                      3. Kill or depose the Prince. Become Prince. Vienna would never dare to remove one of their own as Prince of a major city. They might just put up with you for your ability to grant the right to progeny.
                      4. Join the Caitiff, Anarchs, hell, see if the Giovanni or Kuei Jin are hiring. Just don't do it quietly. Vienna will find you. The trick is making your influence in your new position too useful for them to walk away from. And not worth angering your new allies.
                      5. Vanish. Completely. There are places even Vienna doesn't watch, like the bottom of the ocean and parts of Asia. Go there and enter a long, long torpor.
                      Really, your character is likely to be destroyed soon anyway, so, take a shot. Who knows? Any of these might just work.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Pnizzle View Post
                        I used the current population for LA and based vamp population control numbers based on the books recommendation and purposefully added enough caitiffs as for a side plot to make it an issue.
                        Okay, there are 80 Camarilla and 75 Caitiff in LA.

                        It's notoriously difficult to define exactly what LA includes. There's no "there" there.

                        But, the US census in 2016 estimated the population of Los Angeles county at 10,137,915. (How an estimate ends in "and 15" is beyond me, but okay.) This only includes those responding to the census survey, which is to say, does not include foreign nationals living in the US. Green card holders would add another 300,000 or so, quite conservatively. The numbers of those not legally present are hard to estimate. It should be fair to guess the actual number of humans residing in LA county is around 11 million or so.

                        Now, that's just LA county itself. The entire msa runs closer to a census number of 13,000,000, with a resident population probably at least 10% higher than that.

                        Plus, LA county has about 50 million visitors each year. Assuming seven day visits, and spread evenly across the year, that's an additional 1 million people visiting at any given time.

                        Basically, the county of Los Angeles itself is a little more than 1/30th of the entire population of the US.

                        Let's say the Prince's Domain is just Los Angeles county, itself, not Ventura, Riverside, Orange, etc. (If that's the case, btw, it opens up a lot of options for embracing outside the domain. There's barely a street sign between LA county and Ventura, Riverside, or Orange counties. It's just one big suburban sprawl. This is the border between LA and Orange county. This is the border with Riverside county. This is where LA meets Ventura county.)

                        That smaller domain of just LA would have about 11 million people, 12 million with visitors.

                        If you figure one kindred for every 50,000 people, that domain could comfortably support 240 kindred. Even with the more conservative estimate of 1 per 100,000, that still makes room for 120 kindred.

                        So, 155 is somewhere between under-populated and juuuust slightly over-populated.

                        Your chronicle is your chronicle, but how long is it going to take for the Primogen Council to call bullshit on this Prince?

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          That's pretty gangster. Good ideas all around.

                          What would you guys think other clans would do? Malkav, nosferatu, and Giovanni.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            I can recheck my population math since my metrics may be old and outdated. But that's what I came up with. Tourism was considered as some domains are actually tourist attractions.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Nosferatu: Their first instinct is usually to hide.

                              Remember, pretty much everything they know comes from spying. They find it a little challenging to spy on the Toreador or Tremere. This is usually a good thing for those clans, because it helps preserve their secrets, but it also means the Nosferatu may not have heard the version of events as told sympathetically within those clans.

                              So, whose spin have they heard?

                              Well, has there ever been a Ventrue board meeting without a Nosferatu in attendance? So, they understand the Ventrue and their motivations. This doesn't mean they like the Ventrue, just that they understand them... which can breed sympathy. Besides, who would they rather have in charge, someone they can spy on, or someone they can't?

                              The Nosferatu likely have some notion of what's going on with the Caitiff and the Sabbat. Not much details in the latter case, but, some good guesses.

                              Animalism allows them to maintain back channels with the Gangrel who are hiding out. Just at a guess, I'd say if they have sympathy for any power block in all of this, it's the Gangrel.

                              Giovanni: They likely have offered tacit, indirect "just doing my job" support for the Sabbat. Selling them weapons. Ignoring it when they rent an empty building for their blood keggers. Looking the other way when ten guys with shovels drag screaming teenagers into the cemetery late at night.

                              Of course, they'll handle the Camarilla the same way.

                              Having a loose business relationship with both sides is often the best way to avoid getting dragged into a war. Look up the list of neutral countries in world war two. Neutral definitely did not mean uninvolved.

                              Malkavians: Who knows? It depends more decided by the personal motivations of each Malk. Unless, there is some sort real clan structure in town, like a cult or a shared delusion. If that's the case, well, I feel sorry for everyone involved, because no matter how it turns out, organized Malks always win.

                              Of course, their definition of "win" is often unrecognizable to others...



                              Note well: none of this is definitive. Clans are like families, not cults. They often disagree more than they agree. Well, there are the Setites, but... generally you can't count on any one individual to be "a normal member of their clan".

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                              • #60
                                ​Blood Thaumaturgy and rituals will tell you who someone is bound to. If the answer is "No Body" after drinking Vitae from the Regent - He can safely assume that you're unbondable because you don't have a blood bond at 3 or a vaulderie rating

                                Nosimplehiway - Sabbat Priests have ways of monitoring Vaulderie ratings as well. Running there is not going to be as unnoticable as you advise, but probably straight to True Sabbat.

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