Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

How do Elders with Methuselah's Thirst survive?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • How do Elders with Methuselah's Thirst survive?

    So after a certain amount of time some Elders suffer from the fact that they can only gain nourishment from Kindred blood.

    How do they handle that?
    They can't just constantly slaughter vampires. I think that would raise a panic among the city's kindred and they'd eventually band together and try and hunt down the "diablerist"

    Just nipping a bit from trusted vampires here and there is also a bad idea, as that will get them blood bound to them quickly.

    So how are those guys able to survive?

    I guess one option is: They kidnap a bunch of mortals, turn one into a vampire in secret, then throw him into the room with the rest of the mortal and wait till he's drank them all, then they drain him and dispose of him and all the corpses.

    But that's really the only thing I can think of. I think there gotta be another way to do it, right?

  • #2
    The most obvious way is having a trusted lieutenant or lover that you don't mind being fully bloodbonded to.

    But if Humanity is not an issue you either have Kindred embraced to be throw away juice boxes as you described. Or treat Kindred society's undesirables (Caitiff, Sabbat, criminals, unlawful embraces,...) in the same manner. It's also what Clan Malkavian is rumored to do: http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Gnawed
    Last edited by Malkavian87; 02-09-2018, 01:21 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      I guess one other way would be hunting other supers. Like fea, mages or werewolves... If your in a Sabbat pack and everyone has formed a vaulderie - I guess you could feed from other members of the pack to some extent... Storing blood as Assimitess do is also an option.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Quatar View Post
        So after a certain amount of time some Elders suffer from the fact that they can only gain nourishment from Kindred blood.

        How do they handle that?
        They can't just constantly slaughter vampires.
        Vampires without Methuselah's thirst aren't constantly slaughtering mortals when they feed on them. Granted, some do, but it's not necessary.

        All that's required to satisfy Methuselah's thirst is that the vampire feed on other vampires. So they pop in, drinky drink leaving their prey with a depleted blood pool, Dominate the memories away if necessary, and move on. They just then need to find a way to handle not getting blood bound.


        I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

        The Malkavian Madness Network

        Comment


        • #5
          There's also Thin Bloods. Time of Thin Blood has among its pages a proposal by Dr. Netchurch for using Thin Bloods to deal with the Methuselah Thirst. After all, Thin Blood Vitae cannot create or sustain Blood Bonds, but it's still Vitae. Even Thin Bloods produce vitae thicker than the watery stuff inside mortals. I suspect Netchurch was actually late to the party on this conclusion, because you just know that Methuselahs would have adopted the practice of taking on Thin Blooded servants the moment it was discovered by Kindred at large that Thin Bloods can't create blood bonds. These elders simply don't advertise this practice, for multiple reasons.

          So for all we know, many of the most powerful Methuselahs have Thin Bloods working for them, hunting for them, and bleeding for them. In secret, obviously. Probably those high gen vampires (or unlucky vampires whose blood became too thin in relation to their true generation) are themselves blood bonded, so as to ensure their loyalty.


          For those who can't or won't use Thin Bloods or mutually bonded kindred lovers, there's always buying vampire vitae. Some scourges might agree to let a Caitiff go, in return for filling a few bags of blood. The poor bastards don't really have the option of refusing, do they? Sure, it may leave them open to remote attacks by sorcery, but Caitiff either don't know that, or are in a position where the alternative is immediate death. So those somehow informed enough to imagine such a danger just take their chances and agree to bleed. In other cases, a Caitiff might be so desperate, they agree to sell their blood to an intermediary, in exchange for some kind of boon.

          The latter one applies to any sufficiently desperate Kindred, really. Ravnos, members of persecuted bloodlines, even some Salubri might take the deal if a situation gets bad enough. On the other side, I suspect the Setites make a brisk trade of providing vitae to Methuselahs (and those rare Kindred who got the thirst earlier in their unlives), no questions asked.

          And yes, OF COURSE this whole idea sounds risky for everyone involved. THAT'S WHERE THE DRAMA COMES FROM. Anyone who ever said "I would never let another vampire get an ounce of my blood" has obviously not been desperate enough to sell...yet. And anyone who says "I would never buy blood from a Setite" has obviously never been truly hung up for blood...yet.


          Actually, while we're on the subject of the Followers of Set, they have this handy ritual called Typhon's Brew. It's so basic a blood sorcery Ritual, a practitioner can basically forget about learning Setite alchemy if they can't make it. And it's entire function is to ferment a point of vitae into a gallon of beer than can sustain ghouls and be consumed by vampires. While its primarily just to allow vampires to get drunk (and more efficiently feed ghouls, who get more out of the beer than what's put in), it does presuppose that the customer is imbibing a point of Vitae. Without risk of getting blood bonded.

          So long as a Methuselah is willing to keep a Setite on retainer...and is willing to get smashed on a nightly basis...they don't really need to worry as much. Now they just have to worry about their bar tab...

          (Assuming the Methuselah doesn't just blood bond the Setite sorcerer and be done with it.)
          Last edited by Bluecho; 02-09-2018, 11:40 AM.


          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by BenjCano View Post

            Vampires without Methuselah's thirst aren't constantly slaughtering mortals when they feed on them. Granted, some do, but it's not necessary.

            All that's required to satisfy Methuselah's thirst is that the vampire feed on other vampires. So they pop in, drinky drink leaving their prey with a depleted blood pool, Dominate the memories away if necessary, and move on. They just then need to find a way to handle not getting blood bound.
            Well blood bond is kind of the big issue here, isn't it?

            Now, ideally you'd design the sects around answering the question. Old vampires want to have a bunch of subservient young vampires donating blood to them, young vampires want to have political power and to not be eaten by the old vampires. Different ways in which this balance is implemented would be the foundation of different sects. For example, you could say that in the Camarilla everyone tithes blood to the elders and in exchange elders pinky swear not to eat you. While in Sabbat elder (or multiple elders) forms a pack around himself like a feudal warlord, and you spend most of the time poaching vampires from other packs or Camarilla to feed your elder.

            But this is not the case. So elders with methuselah thirst probably wake up, go on a diablerie spree, and then fall into torpor.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
              Actually, while we're on the subject of the Followers of Set, they have this handy ritual called Typhon's Brew. It's so basic a blood sorcery Ritual, a practitioner can basically forget about learning Setite alchemy if they can't make it. And it's entire function is to ferment a point of vitae into a gallon of beer than can sustain ghouls and be consumed by vampires. While its primarily just to allow vampires to get drunk (and more efficiently feed ghouls, who get more out of the beer than what's put in), it does presuppose that the customer is imbibing a point of Vitae. Without risk of getting blood bonded.

              So long as a Methuselah is willing to keep a Setite on retainer...and is willing to get smashed on a nightly basis...they don't really need to worry as much. Now they just have to worry about their bar tab...

              (Assuming the Methuselah doesn't just blood bond the Setite sorcerer and be done with it.)
              This ritual completely breaks the game since you can give four ghouls four vitae points from one vitae point and then drink from the ghouls.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                Now, ideally you'd design the sects around answering the question. Old vampires want to have a bunch of subservient young vampires donating blood to them, young vampires want to have political power and to not be eaten by the old vampires. Different ways in which this balance is implemented would be the foundation of different sects. For example, you could say that in the Camarilla everyone tithes blood to the elders and in exchange elders pinky swear not to eat you. While in Sabbat elder (or multiple elders) forms a pack around himself like a feudal warlord, and you spend most of the time poaching vampires from other packs or Camarilla to feed your elder.
                This might have been the case if Methuselah's Thirst was a more widespread condition. As it stands, though, vampires unliving to 1000+ years are already comparatively rare, and not all of those vampires develop the thirst. Since it's considered a condition that needs to be hidden by those who have it, we can assume it doesn't come up often enough to structure entire sects around it. While it's probably also the case that many more Methuselahs have it than admit as much, they're likely to keep it a secret simply for self-preservation. Methuselah's Thirst seems to have some link to Diablerie, making anyone who has it suspicious. And a vampire known for having the thirst is also assumed to have some supply chain in place to feed it (and thus, to have a supply chain that can be traced and messed with, by those looking to strike at the vampire).

                Plus, it's just not a topic talked about in polite kindred society. Everyone knows that the oldest elders deal with the condition, and probably go to great and terrible lengths to deal with it. But no one really wants to dwell on that, or be seen talking about it. The Methuselahs have spies everywhere, and find it a touchy subject best not broached by the rabble, as far as the Methuselahs are concerned. It's all the more touchy a subject for its links to Diablerie, which is its own can of worms, best not brought up in polite gatherings (if for no reason than to not give neonates ideas).


                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                  This ritual completely breaks the game since you can give four ghouls four vitae points from one vitae point and then drink from the ghouls.
                  I don't agree that it "completely" breaks the game. In return for a month of work by a blood magician belonging to a specific school of sorcery, you can turn 1 blood point into 4 blood points.

                  <sarcasm>Oh the humanity. How will the game ever survive such munchkin-ry?</sarcasm>

                  In all seriousness, a lot of people like to point at any potential exploit and fly off the handle about how it breaks the game. Within the context of play, though, is it really that damaging? Moreover, is it really inappropriate for a Methuselah to be able to edge out an advantage like this, if they've already got a support network in place to afford the Setite's rates? These vampires are wealthy beyond imagining. In that context, having to commission roughly seven gallons of Typhon's Brew a month, as opposed to ~30 gallons a month, is a drop in the bucket for vampires who measure their Backgrounds in dots greater than 5.

                  If you're really concerned about Typhon's Brew, you as a Storyteller can always rule that the brew ONLY counts as four points per gallon for the ghouls. And that vampires who try to game the system just get back one blood point for every four the ghoul ingested, if it came from the brew.


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                    I don't agree that it "completely" breaks the game. In return for a month of work by a blood magician belonging to a specific school of sorcery, you can turn 1 blood point into 4 blood points.

                    <sarcasm>Oh the humanity. How will the game ever survive such munchkin-ry?</sarcasm>

                    In all seriousness, a lot of people like to point at any potential exploit and fly off the handle about how it breaks the game. Within the context of play, though, is it really that damaging? Moreover, is it really inappropriate for a Methuselah to be able to edge out an advantage like this, if they've already got a support network in place to afford the Setite's rates? These vampires are wealthy beyond imagining. In that context, having to commission roughly seven gallons of Typhon's Brew a month, as opposed to ~30 gallons a month, is a drop in the bucket for vampires who measure their Backgrounds in dots greater than 5.
                    Uh. It allows all vampires forever to exist without hunting. It is a pretty big deal within the context of play. It's not just some minor advantage, it's completely setting-changing.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                      Uh. It allows all vampires forever to exist without hunting. It is a pretty big deal within the context of play. It's not just some minor advantage, it's completely setting-changing.
                      No, it allows vampires willing to pay out the nose to the Followers of Set - who themselves have a finite number of blood sorcerers able and willing to spend large amounts of time doing the Ritual - to get out of hunting. Some of the time. If the Setite bulk brewed the stuff, and sold all of it exclusively to vampires engaging in this scheme.

                      Did I mention it would require providing massive amounts of boons to the Setites? A Clan that are known as serpents, with all the connotations that implies? Not every kindred can do that, and fewer would want to if they could avoid it. The vampiric community would certainly want to avoid doing anything that would massively empower that Clan, and funneling all Kindred feeding through them would certainly qualify as that.

                      And for most Kindred, it's really not worth it just to feed. Humans are a dime a dozen; they're everywhere, and breed like crazy. Even those with the Methuselah Thirst can just embrace a random human and then drain them, if they absolutely had to. Kindred also not only want ease of feeding - that doesn't put them in debt to the Setites - they also want feeding independence. This is why vampires in the Camarilla go to such great lengths to enforce and secure feeding rights.

                      The reason Typhon's Brew is popular is not because some vampires use ghouls in a scheme to avoid hunting. It's popular because it lets a vampire enjoy alcohol and get drunk, which their condition makes impossible. (A vampire CAN get drunk off inebriated people's blood, but it's not the same experience as consuming beer itself, and many kindred miss that mortal experience). When blood can be found far more easily or cheaply in random people off the street, the "Typhon's Brew Strat" just isn't worth it.


                      Comment


                      • #12
                        In my opinion few Methuselahs would allow there to be Kindred out there they have a one step bloodbond to or worse to. Extreme paranoia is how they got to get that old. Unless they're going with the trusty lieutenant/lover method, they'll have to be sure the source of their vitae is destroyed in short order.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                          No, it allows vampires willing to pay out the nose to the Followers of Set - who themselves have a finite number of blood sorcerers...

                          The flawed logic of this is that you're looking at the utility to scarcity ration and thinking that would remain a fixed number. Every time a new power is introduced in a splatbook, a compelling question to answer in a Holmsian sense is "Why haven't we seen references to this power before?" Most of the times its inconsequential. Oh so now the Setites have a new ancient power that they've always had that lets them turn chicken feathers into alligator eggs. Who the fuck cares? If this had been more generally known before, would it have changed anything?

                          This is not the case with Typhon's Brew. Kemmerer has argued that this is a game changer. And it is. There is utility of this power above and beyond a bullshit ritual that turns chicken feathers into alligator eggs. This is the kind of thing that, quite literally, everyone and their mother will want to know. Given that there are at least three dedicated bloodlines devoted to blood sorcery, massive cross splat spread of knowledge already established as a thing within the various paths of blood sorcery, and an entire sect dedicated to a variable level of affection and blood-bondness within a diverse, local group, it strains creduility to think that Typhon's Brew hasn't been leaked, adapted, rewritten, and widely disseminated.

                          It would be like if Apple developed the smartphone, and kept it and only let people make calls on it as and when suited them. Without any other company in the world releasing their own version, or creating pirated bootleg knockoffs, or two or three guys pinning the Apple Phone guy down and taking his phone. Just. You know. With rituals.


                          I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

                          The Malkavian Madness Network

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                            Uh. It allows all vampires forever to exist without hunting. It is a pretty big deal within the context of play. It's not just some minor advantage, it's completely setting-changing.
                            Actually, I have even more to say about this.

                            Let's first set aside whether the Rules As Intended would allow for the multiplicative aspect of Typhon's Brew to apply to vampires. Thinking about it, it's more than just a Storyteller's option to close the loophole, it seems outright like the unwritten assumption. If the vampire couldn't derive more than one Vitae per gallon from the beer as-is, why would taking it from the ghouls somehow avoid this limitation? The ghouls, at least, are still alive, and thus could theoretically make a single blood point "stretch farther" for them than a vampire could. So as far as I'm concerned, the exploit is a loophole that, while open in RAW, should be assumed to not apply in RAI.

                            That. Said.

                            I stress further and again that the making of Typhon's Brew is not free, even for the blood magician. It takes a month of real, actual work, because it's alcohol-making. Even moonshiners working out in the backwoods with repurposed equipment have to put effort into distilling their wares. Brewing beer with magic should not be without work, either. We can assume that at least some time every night needs to be spent by the sorcerer to keep the process going. Checking on the supply, keeping everything stable, and performing incantations and such. That's a time and at least minimal effort investment on the sorcerer's part. Time and effort they could have spent doing literally anything else.

                            Even if we're just talking about a sorcerer working to supply themselves with "free" Vitae, they're spending at least an hour on this project every night. That also assuming a single ritual can brew multiple gallons at once, rather than each gallon requiring its own set of Ritual work. Well, if the sorcerer spends an hour each night working to maintain the next month's supply of vitae...is that really any easier than a regular vampire who just hunts for their meal? Go to the club or stalk people a few times a week, and that's a fair bit of work.

                            Keep in mind also that our hypothetical blood magician has to store their supply somewhere while they're brewing it. If the character were a PC - and assuming the Storyteller didn't close the loophole already - that Storyteller would be fully within their rights to treat the brewing setup as a valid target for enemies. Ditto with the ghouls the sorcerer uses to multiply their vitae through. Just as feeding normally carries risk, so does having an elaborate magical setup like this. If the character is a known practitioner of Akhu, their rivals might guess they can produce Typhon's Brew, and start looking for where they make it. Typhon's Brew is still beer, and so beer-making supplies like hops and grains will still be needed. If a rival pays attention to sales of such supplies, they might be able to track the sorcerer back to their lair. And then there's the possibility of the brewing process failing for incidental reasons, depriving the vampire of a month's supply. (The actual brewing process can only begin on the New Moon).


                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I might embrace someone that is brain dead, (if I care about Humanity/Virtues) and get myself purposefully Blood Bound to them, then not really worry about feeding from other vampires too much.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X