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How do Elders with Methuselah's Thirst survive?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
    It does not seem feasible to me that when Methusaleh's Thirst first strikes, that the vampire must immediately drink only Kindred blood to survive. The need to continually drink Kindred vitae does not seem to be reflected in the setting. We don't see anywhere near the amount of vampire depopulation we might expect to happen when the thirst develops.
    The number of active Methuselahs in the world is simply very small. And nothing is easier to replenish than Kindred numbers. The fact that many cities have a position like Scourge shows that there's in fact more danger of overpopulation. (And the Methuselahs need someone to catch food that won't be missed.)

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    • #32
      I think it would be worthwhile to look at the topic's question from a different angle:
      How does the 'average Kindred' survive the fact that there are Kindred Elders and Kindred Methuselahs with Methuselah's Thirst?

      The 'average Elder' , or the 'average Methuselah' , seems to me more than capable of dealing with Methuselah's Thirst.
      Assuming there would be any problem(s) in regards to Kindred and the Methuselah's Thirst condition, I think it would be a problem (or problems) for the younger among the Kindred, rather than for the Kindred Elders and Methuselahs with the condition.
      Last edited by Muad'Dib; 02-11-2018, 01:17 PM.

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      • #33
        BenjCano

        I'm very interested in your analysis. I have a methodological question, though.

        How did you correct for selection/survivor bias?

        I mean, lots of vampires have been embraced through the years, but not all of them are written up in CotN.

        In order to be listed a vampire must:
        • Be powerful or lucky enough to survive a long time.
        • Interact with vampire society enough to become notable.
        • Be unusual enough to be included. (There aren't a lot of listings for "Ho-hum... Toreador Harpie #42.")
        It seems reasonable that vampires with some or all three of those traits are more likely to acquire Blood Sorcery than the average lick in an alley. Your conclusions might make sense for particularly dynamic elders, but not for the general population.

        Using what you describe of your methodology, and the fact that CotN includes three Monitors of the Inconnu among the sixty or so Kindred listed, we can take a guess at the number of Monitors in the world. If one person in every 50000 (a commonly accepted ballpark) is a vampire, that would mean that there are 140000 vampires in the world. The CotN sample implies that 1/20 of them are Monitors of the Inconnu. With 7000 Monitors, the sect must be very busy compiling all that data1.

        That said, a group of sixty elder vampires is an unusually large sample. Shame to waste the data if you already have it input.

        Have you tried plotting the data? Set the x axis for age in decades, and the y for number of blood sorcery dots known2. In the scatter diagram does a pattern emerge? If so, then applying a line of best fit might help to predict the dots of blood sorcery known by weaker and, for that matter, more powerful vampires. If the data is too broken, it should be obvious if the line of best fit doesn't point towards the origin, where the age and number of dots known should both be approximately zero, since we know neo-nates don't often know several dots of blood sorcery on night #1.

        Have you tried factor analysis? More involved, definitely, but if the data is already input... what does knowledge of blood sorcery best correlate with? My guess is clan, of course. But after clan, is it age? Generation? Status? Finding the top handful of factors, then correcting for the "average" of those factors in the general population could get a broad estimate3. This would be especially helpful in local settings, where the factors may be exaggerated. I'm willing to bet there are more blood sorcerers among the elders of Vienna, than at a Brujah rant in Saskatoon.



        1If this were true, I expect there would be some small cities entirely populated populated by one autarkis and one monitor. "Who are you, and why do you keep following me around? It's creepy. Stop it."
        2Notice how deftly I ignore generation and status as factors? No real reason except that I have never gotten calculating lines of best fit in more than two dimensions.
        3Of course, correlation is not causation, so, ymmv. I expect it's likely profiles written by certain authors are more likely to have blood sorcery, for example.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
          BenjCano

          I'm very interested in your analysis. I have a methodological question, though.
          Great questions. It will be a few days before I can respond at length but I did want to placeholder this just to let you know that I will respond in due time.


          I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

          The Malkavian Madness Network

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          • #35
            The easy answer is that the Tremere are a mess on all fronts, and different Editions have had different degrees of access to Thaumaturgy, but also plenty of forms of Blood Sorcery that predates the Tremere or are developed individually, (in addition to predating the Tremere).


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            • #36
              Funny though, I always read the Methuselah's Thirst another way.
              It's not that they must drink ONLY vampire's vitae, but they only feel fullfilled drinking vampire vitae. For them human blood is shallow, missing the gist.

              But that's exacly like animal's blood is compare to human blood for normal vampires.
              So I always ruled it as the Methuselah must drink vampire vitae to be fullfilled, but can in the meantime fill himself with human blood to go on with its nightly unlife. Of course, everytime he drinks from just normal humans he feels more and more frustrated. And, like normal vampires with animals, a human just don't give a Methuselah it's whole blood point, because they have so little nourishment. At best 2 Blood Points for drying an adult.

              But at least in this way, they can go on without creating slaughtering factories for Kindred (which in turn means that the act of drinking Kindred vitae is more likely to stay a secret, as most of the Methuselah don't know that thinbloods can't bloodbound, and just go on a "one time full drink" on their victims).


              ====================================
              "Worst English-language User" 2011-2015, 2017 running for the 2018


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              • #37
                ON Methuselah's Thirst

                Firstly, the wording in the books is that you only gain sustanance from Supernatural blood. so you can't feed on humans or animals anymore

                Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                I might embrace someone that is brain dead, (if I care about Humanity/Virtues) and get myself purposefully Blood Bound to them, then not really worry about feeding from other vampires too much.
                Then you will suddenly care for this individual, a poor soul embraced to live in this torment forever. Then you start feeling bad for doing this too them, because you would now do anything for them.

                Feeding Sparsely on a city's population of kindred could work; a 1 step blood usually fades after 1 month.
                Take 2-3 off each member when you need to feed, use one of your phenomenal powers to bring them to you, to make them forget, to drink from afar. Anything.

                Second main option, the Gluttony approach - find a vampire and drink them nearly dry, then leave again. Get 10-20 BPs and keep you going for a few weeks. Works well if you're moving towns often.

                There is always the option for a Herd (Of Vampires)


                On Typhon's Brew

                Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
                If we assume that there is one half of a one percent chance of an inconveniencing Fuck Up happening during the average feeding session, and that the average vampire will feed once ever 7-10 days (8 days on average), then that's 45 feeding sessions in one year. There's a 97% chance of a Fuck Up free feeding. But as you extend that out longer and longer, your odds of having at least one Fuck Up increase.
                I love statistics, but I have one challenge on an assumption - how often you feed.
                While Humans can survive about 3 weeks without food, we still like to eat 3 times a day, often snacking. Blood is better than sex, cocaine and a fine meal all in one; I put it to you that most vampires would feed nightly. Also, feeding every week you will be creating a trail of corpses.

                So, I read that the odds of something messing up as much higher.

                BUT

                - What are the odds of failing the ritual, or botching it. That the investment of 1 Blood Point and a months's time gone. Technically the ritual only takes 10 mins, but you still need to brew the beer with whatever time commitment that will take.
                And you have to have 10 batches on the go at the same time (10 Gallons) to reclaim the same amount of blood you've put in plus 30 for the month.

                - A human heals 1 lethal in 24 hrs. (With rest/food etc); Feeding causes 1 lethal damage ergo You can survive off of one blood doll in good health.
                - 10 Ghouls being drunk from once a week will give you the same result as brewing beer without learning sorcery, brewing beer, risk of failing a ritual and losing the commitment of blood.
                - Typhon's brew doesn't help you very much, you are still feeding off your ghouls, you're just finding a way of replenishing them more easily than usual.


                On Both Methuselah's Thirst and Typhon's Brew

                - Drinking from a Ghoul that has drunk vitae (Whether from Typhon's brew or from your wrist) will not sate Methuselah's Thirst, because Ghoul's blood is not supernatural for the sake of the flaw.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                  I might embrace someone that is brain dead, (if I care about Humanity/Virtues) and get myself purposefully Blood Bound to them, then not really worry about feeding from other vampires too much.
                  If you care about humanity, you probably haven't developed the Methuselah's thirst. I don't know if it's specified in any source book, but I always imagined this to afflict Methuselah's with low humanity or inhumane paths and that the rare high humanity elder would be spared from developing it.

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                  • #39
                    Another factor which might matter - perhaps the Kindred with the Methuselah's Thirst condition help each other out and cover for each other. One of the world's most exclusive, secret and reclusive groups. Assuming this to be happening, this group would also have the means and a knack for finding Kindred with Methuselah's Thirst, and initiating them into the group; and this group would be cross-Sect.
                    Last edited by Muad'Dib; 02-14-2018, 08:28 AM.

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                    • #40
                      Level 1 blood bonds, however they are conceptualised in the setting, are not that big a deal. Having a pack of 5-10 vampires you rotate for blood duty (have them fill up, drink them with a modicum of care, let them rest for half a year) is a trivial task for a Methuselah.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Alucard View Post
                        If you care about humanity, you probably haven't developed the Methuselah's thirst. I don't know if it's specified in any source book, but I always imagined this to afflict Methuselah's with low humanity or inhumane paths and that the rare high humanity elder would be spared from developing it.
                        As far as I recall, and keeping in mind that it is largely an undefined thing, the only two contributing factors are age and the frequency of Diablerie.

                        The later speeding up the process, while age seems to be somewhat constant, give or take.

                        I can also see Generation being a contributing factor, but I don't believe it is ever specifically mentioned as such.

                        I could see Humanity, (only, no other Paths), maybe playing in, in a wonky way, but really only in the 1st Ed sense. I don't recall it being mentioned in any books, though. But, now I am curious what opinions might be on how Golconda interacts with it, (not including turning mortal, obviously)?


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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                          Then you will suddenly care for this individual, a poor soul embraced to live in this torment forever. Then you start feeling bad for doing this too them, because you would now do anything for them.
                          Not trying to imply it would be easy or without difficulties, but simply, (at least possibly), less troubling than other alternatives.

                          Especially if I, (as the character), care about morality, can see the risks of being emotionally indebted to someone else who might aim to utilize me to do terrible things. If the person I Embraced has a chance of recovering, I might have just given them the time they need. And if not, at least I can take some confort in the fact that even if it is against their will, (ironic), they are keeping countless others from being killed, tortured, Embraced, mind-raped, or whatever else a Methuselah would otherwise need to do in order to survive, and with my devotion to their "corpse", most likely they will be kept safe, comfortable, and treated better than anywhere else.

                          It is still monstrous, and none of these rationals really change that, but it is still least of many evils.''


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                          • #43
                            In Dark Ages, there is a real opportunity for the Ahrimanes to create a niche for themselves. The Ahrimanes in that period were different from the Ahrimanes 2.0 in V20. They could freely embrace childer, but were unable to form a blood bond of any sort. (And they looked weirdly like Nancy McKeon...)

                            How are there not Ahrimanes, willing or not, whose entire gig is feeding elders their blood? Given their utility to elders, I would think they should have survived into the modern nights. Sure, their clan culture is built around a sort of middle-ages version of separatist feminism. But if just one of them decided that life in a nice warm, cozy palace might be nicer than a dugout hut in a peat bog, that one would presumably go on to embrace like-minded childer.

                            Sure, being the keg in an elder's keg party isn't the best job around, but it's honest work. Plus, you know if danger arises, you are absolutely the one thing your patron will not allow to be destroyed.

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                            • #44
                              What could be an interesting solution is to have some Tremere try to clone Vampire blood for these Elders or at least make a substitute. Or if you don't mind some crossing over, have a Progenitor or Hermatic Mage blood bonded and dominated to do this.


                              See my splat, Angel: The Revelation (With a MUCH better link): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...qUnP1fcl-0/pub

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                                In Dark Ages, there is a real opportunity for the Ahrimanes to create a niche for themselves. The Ahrimanes in that period were different from the Ahrimanes 2.0 in V20. They could freely embrace childer, but were unable to form a blood bond of any sort.

                                How are there not Ahrimanes, willing or not, whose entire gig is feeding elders their blood? Given their utility to elders, I would think they should have survived into the modern nights. Sure, their clan culture is built around a sort of middle-ages version of separatist feminism. But if just one of them decided that life in a nice warm, cozy palace might be nicer than a dugout hut in a peat bog, that one would presumably go on to embrace like-minded childer.

                                Sure, being the keg in an elder's keg party isn't the best job around, but it's honest work. Plus, you know if danger arises, you are absolutely the one thing your patron will not allow to be destroyed.
                                You know; that could be an interesting reason for _why_ there are no Ahrimanes v1 arround in modern nights. Maybe they started being hunted by thirsty Methuselahs, maybe the majority of them got cushy jobs turning human blood into Vitae but the Methuselah frenzied and Diablerised them all, leaving the remaining "Free range" Ahrimanes to hide within the Gangrel line, slowly incorporating the weakness. Then in modern nights the Ahrimane v2 diverge as a bloodline again.

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