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  • #16
    Originally posted by Beckett View Post
    Why can't this cyclical Gehenna shit just die.

    Seriously.

    Why should it? It's a valid hypothesis that's been proposed as possible in printed canon. Might go a long way to explain why no one Embraced bce seems to have a higher Generation than fifth, despite there being thousands of years of Kindred existence between the Second City and Common Era.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post


      Why should it? It's a valid hypothesis that's been proposed as possible in printed canon. Might go a long way to explain why no one Embraced bce seems to have a higher Generation than fifth, despite there being thousands of years of Kindred existence between the Second City and Common Era.
      Sacrifices have to be made, on occasion.

      But don't worry about Beckett. Just bitter about the diary coming out into the open.


      Matthew Dawkins
      In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing

      ~Hapax Legomenon~

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
        Yeah, but if that's enough then how the hell would bloodlines ever be safe? The connection of Tremere to Tzimisce/Salubri/Gangrel/Nosferatu is far weaker than the connection of a bloodline to their parent clan. What I'm positing is that you can't present a criteria of relation to an antediluvian that would include the Tremere but exclude the bloodlines.
        In the Gehenna book, Each Antediluvian has a different way of impacting those connected to them. For [Tzimesce] it is anyone that has a dot of Vicissitude because the Fiend has mostly evolved past being a vampire into Vicissitude.
        For Malkav, it's anyone that looks into the eyes of a Malkavian, because [Malkav] has become what is know as the madness network.

        But IN GENERAL, (Without explicit extra rules) it is just the descendants within the "Clan" that are affected.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Beckett View Post
          Why can't this cyclical Gehenna shit just die.

          Seriously.
          I like it a lot better than the ultimate-end-of-the-World-in-blood-and-ashes type of a Gehenna. That concept already "killed" my favorite setting once. I don't really know how V5 could work with anything but some concept of a cyclical Gehenna.


          If nothing worked, then let's think!

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          • #20
            Honestly, because I really hate the concept. Reminds me of a trope from shows like Buffy and Angel were stopping the Apocalypse routinely.

            It is very anticlimactic to the setting, and feels like a watered down excuse.

            I don't see how it could be said an Apocalyptic Gehenna could kill the setting. It has been built up to from the start, (or close to it). Its the exact opposite, actually, where de-emphasizing the major theme is very "meh". Granted, I am bias, as I simply hate the concept.
            Last edited by Beckett; 02-15-2018, 02:42 AM.


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            • #21
              I can take or leave the cyclical method (though I'm leaning more towards liking it).


              See my splat, Angel: The Revelation (With a MUCH better link): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...qUnP1fcl-0/pub

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                Honestly, because I really hate the concept. Reminds me of a trope from shows like Buffy and Angel were stopping the Apocalypse routinely.

                It is very anticlimactic to the setting, and feels like a watered down excuse.

                I don't see how it could be said an Apocalyptic Gehenna could kill the setting. It has been built up to from the start, (or close to it). Its the exact opposite, actually, where de-emphasizing the major theme is very "meh". Granted, I am bias, as I simply hate the concept.
                Okay, I'm getting where you came from.

                The way I see it, Gehenna as the End of the World got much more emphasis during Revised. As mentioned, earlier, the idea of a cyclical Gehenna was there too. And it was really a product of its time, the whole turn of the millenium angst. However, I started to play and overall getting involved with WoD years after 2000, at the very tail end of the original lines' run. I always seen it as the ending of the games (thus, the killing) was precisely the result of the emphaisi on the End Times. You just can't wind up the tension and dangle the Apocalypse over everyone's head for a prolonged time without looking silly. You either close the story and deliver the promised big bang at some point, or risk the Buffy/Supernatural effect.

                Now, some could say, that they preferred the definite close-up of the setting, that the Apocalypse was indeed delivered and that was it. That it is a more satisfying dramatic closure, but I could imagine multiple other arguments on tha side of that. That is a legit approach, in my eyes.

                However, again, as I've always seen it, WoD (with the possible exception of Werewolf, but I'm not even sure on that matter) doesn't really need an end-of-the-World scenaria to work. The millenial angst was fun, but it passed and it wasn't the first time humanity (and I assume, the supernatural world) experienced it. I also like the idea of immensely powerful vampires sleeping under the sand, waking up from time-to-time and wrecking up the supernatural world, than the idea of omnipotent blood gods bringing on us the End. I find the former more reletable and it's sustainable as a long-term rpg setting.

                I just don't see the End Times Gehenna concept as necessary for the game. It wasn't really there, to that extent, at the beginning and I think it wasn't what made the game succesfull. It was also more than enough for me to see my favorite rpg setting getting cancelled, because the writers wrote themselves into a corner with the whole apocalypse theme.

                Again, I'm not saying a game can't revolve around an apocalypse, not at all. It's just, a game like that necessaily has an end and I don't want that in the case of WoD and also, I'm not even seeing the apocalypse as a necessary thing in this case. On my part, I never emphaiszed it, or concentrated on it. The old secrets, legends, schemes and such, absolutely, sure, but not the apocalypse angle.
                Last edited by PMárk; 02-15-2018, 08:58 PM.


                If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                  Honestly, because I really hate the concept. Reminds me of a trope from shows like Buffy and Angel were stopping the Apocalypse routinely.

                  It is very anticlimactic to the setting, and feels like a watered down excuse.

                  I don't see how it could be said an Apocalyptic Gehenna could kill the setting. It has been built up to from the start, (or close to it). Its the exact opposite, actually, where de-emphasizing the major theme is very "meh". Granted, I am bias, as I simply hate the concept.
                  Ok... you do understand the adult response to that is “I personally don’t care for it and wouldn’t use it at my table” and not “everyone else needs to shut up about this thing I don’t like,” right?

                  Also something having happened 3,000 years ago and destroyed over 99% of the Kindred population and about to happen again is hardly a preventable apocalypse of the week.


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                  • #24
                    A cyclical apocalypse is also more in keeping with what an apocalypse, outside the context of the Wod, actually means. Its an uncovering, a revelation, the destruction of the current order...but not necessarily all order. Ragnarok rather than total irrevocable annihilation.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

                      Ok... you do understand the adult response to that is “I personally don’t care for it and wouldn’t use it at my table” and not “everyone else needs to shut up about this thing I don’t like,” right?

                      Also something having happened 3,000 years ago and destroyed over 99% of the Kindred population and about to happen again is hardly a preventable apocalypse of the week.
                      Sorry, my response to this seems to have been eaten, and so Ill try to recreate it. As I mentioned, I am admittedly bias in that I really dislike the concept. It was an idea that appeared in 1st Ed Core book, but, so did plenty of other things that died out as the game was still seeing what stuck to the walls. Just because it was there early doesn't really validate it.

                      It also just does not work so much. Not with the way the game/lore has progressed, and questionably on it's own. The idea of a cyclical Gehenna is that every 2,300 years, the Antediluvians awaken and diablerize all except one member of their Clan in hunger, and then return to Torpor, allowing that one Cainite to repopulate the world for the next time they wake. It has happened twice before, and the third is nowish.

                      I'm sorry, that just sounds stupid to me. As in rediculous and unlikely. Anticlimactic, but also just ignoring all the cool things that came inspite of it over the years. And that is another serious issue, and particularly pertinent with the very distinct possiblility that V5 might really, really destroy/alter/ignore/remove so many of the elements of VtM I love.

                      The cyclical Gehenna concept, especially if you want to throw out all the setting lore involving Caine, doesn't really even solve issues as suggested above, but creates them. It sort of sets the human/Vampire population at 8,000 years old, max, implies there could be anything up to 45 Generations, (rather than 15), and other wonkiness. The alternative is to just toss out pretty much all Cainite lore, (Caine, divine curse, Enoch, the flood, etc...), to make VtM nearly identical to the VtR setting concept. I'm not trying to argue which is the better game, but simply saying that a significant portion of VtM fans turned away from VtR because of that exact reason. They liked the lore, setting, and history of VtM, and felt VtRs maybe this, maybe that, or maybe this other thing unsatisfying and unsatisfactory. Granted, there are other reasons as well, from mechanics to themes, but the lack of "VtMness" is a very common one, and oddly a draw for those that preferred VtR instead. HOWEVER, there is already a game that does the VtR way. It is called VtR. No need to ruin VtM here.

                      I actually like Gehenna being the massive end of times event it was built up to over the years and editions, and there is absolutely no reason to simply stop your game because it came out or anyone forcing you to use it. Gehenna cycles, however, sounds like a great possibility for another setting, namely VtR, where it could fit very easily.

                      As a concept, I like the idea of ancients, not just Antediluvians, awakening periodically, even on cycles and feasting on all nearby Cainites they can find, regardless of Clan/Bloodline. In fact, mass awakenings from Torpor across the world followed with a significant feasting on Kindred every few centuries sounds interesting and mysterious. It is not Gehenna, (which is basically what my distaste for Gehenna Cycles comes down to), but as it's own thing is, or rather can be very cool, depending on how it is handled. Gehenna cycles is not, in my subjective opinion. Periodic (ish) awakening of Torpid ancient Cainites, including Antediluvians sometimes, that destroy perhaps 25% of the globes Cainite population indiscriminatly over a few months, perhaps, before simply vanishing, though...

                      How and why do they all awaken at so nearly the same time? Why 25%, give or take each time? Where do they come from, or go?

                      It also offers a chance to stir things up on the local level when the Prince and half the Primogen may simply be destroyed within a week, leaving the Domain in chaos and vulnerable, but with sudden openings that need filled. And, how do Kindred react, knowing something is coming? Hide, possibly loosing much of what they have built up, or take the risk and capitalize on others going to ground.

                      And finally, why I utterly disagree with your little quip about "adult responses", is because I have very strong feelings about the possibly directions V5 and nWW might be trying to take my game. This can range from the possibility of intergrating significant elements of VtR into VtM to trying to write out canon, stories, lore, and/or elements just because you don't like them, (very adult, right, because we are on the subject). Now, no one said "you suck for liking this". I would counter, particularly at times like this when it might matter in regards to the future of the setting, speaking up for the things we find troubling is the adult thing to do, even when others disagree.

                      You and others are perfectly welcome to have your own views and preferences, and to defend them. I feel it waters down the setting, and would rather have a big apocalypse be a big apocalypse.

                      Gehenna cycles are really not apocalyptic in any sense of the word. There is no revealing, or uncovering. Its simply a continuation of the same, over and over. A singular Gehenna is, as many hidden things come out, secrets and unknowns are discovered, and the world changes. Interestingly, most or all of the Gehenna scenarios ended with the possibility of Cainites, (and the rest of existence), surviving, either as mortals or some of the few remaining Cainites.
                      Last edited by Beckett; 02-17-2018, 06:44 AM.


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                      • #26
                        I prefer the idea of the cyclical Gehenna mentioned in the First Edition corebook.

                        But then again, I vastly prefer VTM 1E to Revised. A lot of the stuff from V1 that got lost, forgotten, or destroyed in Revised is the stuff I like.

                        And no, that's not the nostalgia talking. I was born in 1993 and did not start playing WoD until 2010, well after White Wolf's prime.

                        Hell, I started with Requiem before playing Masquerade and I just prefer the V1 presentation of the game and its setting over the metaplot-ridden apocalyptic personal horror game that was Revised Edition.

                        But other people like Revised and its style of things, and that's cool too. You do you and I do me.

                        Beckett, I take it you prefer the Revised Edition approach and while I personally detest Revised Edition, I don't get onto others for liking it. Live and let live.

                        You like Revised, I like First Edition. Neither one of us are "right" or "wrong", just different. So long as everyone's having fun, what's the harm?
                        Last edited by Camilla; 02-17-2018, 10:52 AM.

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                        • #27
                          I think Gehenna should be part of the one true ending of the world (though of course it is actually only one event of the ending of the world - the Apocalypse, Doomsday, etc. that is described across all the game lines). But I have no problem with the idea of "mini-Gehennas" clearing off boatloads of vampires which are caused for various reasons, some of which are completely indistinct from the manipulations of the Antedeluvians and Methusalehs. In fact within the game, these historical mini-Gehennas are the proof certain vampires use to show there are cyclical Gehennas or that the concept of Gehenna is in fact a myth and merely societal stressed enduced imaginings.

                          Originally posted by Camilla View Post
                          But then again, I vastly prefer VTM 1E to Revised. A lot of the stuff from V1 that got lost, forgotten, or destroyed in Revised is the stuff I like.
                          I tend to prefer the early conceptions of the game as well. That's because while they gave us the core concepts of the WoD, they were at the same time quite open and all the fiddly bits seemed to be toolkits to allow the STs to run the kind of game they and their players wanted.

                          Want to be Lost Boys? Play Anarchs. Want to be Anne Rice style vampires? Play Camarilla loyalists? Want to play old school vampires that simply arrive, start feeding on people, and creating new vampires? Play Sabbat. Do you want humanity to have dangerous defenders, then strengthen the Inquisition. Do you want more interaction with mortals who know about the existence of vampires while not be a Masquerade beach, then make the Arcanum prominent. Are you interested in the deeper aspects of the Jyhad? Then utilize the concepts of Methusalehs in torpor and their feuds, the Methusaleh's thirst, secret vampires others don't know about, and the ties created by blood bonds, boons, and Dominate. Or do you want more personal horror driven game then concentrate on the Beast, the legends of Golconda, the loss of Humanity, and the degeneration of Wights. Want to emphasize vampire's connections to the Devil, then play up Infernalism. Then there were all sorts of lesser mysteries of the setting where you could explore one of the Bloodlines, the historical truths of events in vampire history, or occult power in the form of Thaumaturgy.

                          In the early games that I played, there was almost no sect conflict whatsoever.

                          The big crime of Revised is that it tried to take all of that away and say, "Stop running your own games. Instead, I am now the ST of your STs so start running this one specific game using the setting's tools." That's why the toolkits started to disappear as the game started eliminating all the things the new developer didn't like. Out of all the myriad ways the Sabbat could be interpreted in the games of individual STs, now there was only one true depiction (which required eliminating many of the neat things and potential story hooks in the Sabbat).

                          Now, I don't think that by itself was bad anymore than I think the Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand was bad. It's just that it should be seen as merely ONE thing you can do with the setting instead of the idea that this is now canon and all future versions of the game should reflect that. So while I think it would have been fun to go through that extended plot as a player in a game where Justin Achilli was the ST, I also would not want that to be standard for other vampire games I played in run by other STs.

                          Instead of engaging me as a fan, I simply stopped buying Revised vampire material because it didn't give me the tools I wanted to run the game I wanted. If I buy game supplements, I want them to give me toolkits. And the Revised era not only did not do that, it kept taking away the toolkits previously provided.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                            I think Gehenna should be part of the one true ending of the world (though of course it is actually only one event of the ending of the world - the Apocalypse, Doomsday, etc. that is described across all the game lines). But I have no problem with the idea of "mini-Gehennas" clearing off boatloads of vampires which are caused for various reasons, some of which are completely indistinct from the manipulations of the Antedeluvians and Methusalehs. In fact within the game, these historical mini-Gehennas are the proof certain vampires use to show there are cyclical Gehennas or that the concept of Gehenna is in fact a myth and merely societal stressed enduced imaginings.



                            I tend to prefer the early conceptions of the game as well. That's because while they gave us the core concepts of the WoD, they were at the same time quite open and all the fiddly bits seemed to be toolkits to allow the STs to run the kind of game they and their players wanted.

                            Want to be Lost Boys? Play Anarchs. Want to be Anne Rice style vampires? Play Camarilla loyalists? Want to play old school vampires that simply arrive, start feeding on people, and creating new vampires? Play Sabbat. Do you want humanity to have dangerous defenders, then strengthen the Inquisition. Do you want more interaction with mortals who know about the existence of vampires while not be a Masquerade beach, then make the Arcanum prominent. Are you interested in the deeper aspects of the Jyhad? Then utilize the concepts of Methusalehs in torpor and their feuds, the Methusaleh's thirst, secret vampires others don't know about, and the ties created by blood bonds, boons, and Dominate. Or do you want more personal horror driven game then concentrate on the Beast, the legends of Golconda, the loss of Humanity, and the degeneration of Wights. Want to emphasize vampire's connections to the Devil, then play up Infernalism. Then there were all sorts of lesser mysteries of the setting where you could explore one of the Bloodlines, the historical truths of events in vampire history, or occult power in the form of Thaumaturgy.

                            In the early games that I played, there was almost no sect conflict whatsoever.

                            The big crime of Revised is that it tried to take all of that away and say, "Stop running your own games. Instead, I am now the ST of your STs so start running this one specific game using the setting's tools." That's why the toolkits started to disappear as the game started eliminating all the things the new developer didn't like. Out of all the myriad ways the Sabbat could be interpreted in the games of individual STs, now there was only one true depiction (which required eliminating many of the neat things and potential story hooks in the Sabbat).

                            Now, I don't think that by itself was bad anymore than I think the Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand was bad. It's just that it should be seen as merely ONE thing you can do with the setting instead of the idea that this is now canon and all future versions of the game should reflect that. So while I think it would have been fun to go through that extended plot as a player in a game where Justin Achilli was the ST, I also would not want that to be standard for other vampire games I played in run by other STs.

                            Instead of engaging me as a fan, I simply stopped buying Revised vampire material because it didn't give me the tools I wanted to run the game I wanted. If I buy game supplements, I want them to give me toolkits. And the Revised era not only did not do that, it kept taking away the toolkits previously provided.

                            I agree with this statement in its entirety. I love the mystery and toolkit approach that V1 had.

                            Hell, if I ever get to run my dream VTM chronicle, it would be V1 with the original setting assumptions and even the First Edition corebook's mechanics. Not sure if I want to make it a 90's period piece or just do the setting in 2018 instead of 1991, but either way it would be awesome.
                            Last edited by Camilla; 02-17-2018, 12:11 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Beckett View Post



                              The cyclical Gehenna concept, especially if you want to throw out all the setting lore involving Caine, doesn't really even solve issues as suggested above, but creates them. It sort of sets the human/Vampire population at 8,000 years old, max, implies there could be anything up to 45 Generations, (rather than 15), and other wonkiness. The alternative is to just toss out pretty much all Cainite lore, (Caine, divine curse, Enoch, the flood, etc...), to make VtM nearly identical to the VtR setting concept. I'm not trying to argue which is the better game, but simply saying that a significant portion of VtM fans turned away from VtR because of that exact reason. They liked the lore, setting, and history of VtM, and felt VtRs maybe this, maybe that, or maybe this other thing unsatisfying and unsatisfactory. Granted, there are other reasons as well, from mechanics to themes, but the lack of "VtMness" is a very common one, and oddly a draw for those that preferred VtR instead. HOWEVER, there is already a game that does the VtR way. It is called VtR. No need to ruin VtM here.
                              Actually, I was one of those who just missed the "VtMness" from Requiem, the lore, the themes, the details. However, I just never seen the Cainite legends as hard and fast truths in VtM and I never liked the idea of an apocalyptic Gehenna, even before I knew there was a concept of a cylcical one back in the day. I'm just not keen on big singular end of the World scenarios, precisely, because they make the whole story/setting revolving around them and they give a definite end to the setting/story.



                              You and others are perfectly welcome to have your own views and preferences, and to defend them. I feel it waters down the setting, and would rather have a big apocalypse be a big apocalypse.
                              That's totally fair and agree to disagree is cool. For me, I never felt the need for a big apocalypse and I don't think the absence of one is watering down the setting, because in my eyes, the setting never was about the big apocalypse. Rather, the fear of an apocalypse, the dread and amping up of tension of what could possibly happen when the ancients rise was what I felt is important. And I think it would be there, even if WW will go with the cyclical Gehenna, because basicall no one knows anything, everybody is shitting their pants and it's clear that it will have huge ramifications in the supernatural world. I don't think it makes it like VtR, VtR is working on a much smaller scale.




                              If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by PMárk View Post
                                For me, I never felt the need for a big apocalypse and I don't think the absence of one is watering down the setting, because in my eyes, the setting never was about the big apocalypse. Rather, the fear of an apocalypse, the dread and amping up of tension of what could possibly happen when the ancients rise was what I felt is important.
                                I agree with this as well. In none of the games I ran or played in was the actual Gehenna actually a factor (although I am not opposed to playing in a game where it does begin to happen - but the ST will need to be very good). But there was always the atmosphere of "what if we are living in the end times?". That was very evocative.

                                Of course, it's not necessary to have that and enjoy a good game of vampire. I often run historical chronicles and such an atmosphere wouldn't benefit the setting. And there is nothing about the modern age which absolutely requires it. But millenialism, when done well, can add a tone and mood to the game, and I think it was one of the points that made the WoD an interesting and compelling setting.

                                That is one reason in the personal canon of my own chronicles, I only had one confirmed awakening of an antedeluvian (and his active participation in the world) in the past two thousand plus years. And that was Cappadocious because there are several things in the backstory that needed to occur. Those were his conversion to Christianity and the Feast of Folly. I timed those to occur with the Antonine Plague and the Justinian Plague in order to associate a certain amount of dread that corresponds with his activity. And I also tied in the Black Death (which was the proximate factor that lead to the conditions of the Anarch Revolt) with another reputed sighting that Cappadocious was active. I thought this would make good anecdotal evidence of what might happen when the other Antedeluvians rose, tie in well with the mythology of the Sabbat, and provide a good excuse why the other Clans did not seem to intervene or stop the Giovanni vampires from destroying the other Cappadocians. Simply revealing that association over the course of a chronicle had a chilling effect on the PCs even though those events had no impact on the PCs's activity. But it helped establish that general feeling of dread and the idea that there was a much greater game going on.

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