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Discovering Diablerie

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  • #16
    How often do people check? I don't think there's any standardized number to answer this question. Does Teresa Toreador never both using that ability? Does Terry Tremere check everyone coming into Elysium? Does Mary Malkavian check every person they meet?

    It'll just come down to the individual ST. But given the ease of checking and severity of the crime, I see no reason there wouldn't be something like the below.
    - Someone the Prince designates to check people entering Elysium.
    - Someone who checks people hoping to blackmail or report people for favors.

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    • #17
      Make an excuse, torpor for a year+


      Be correct.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by PewPew View Post
        Make an excuse, torpor for a year+

        This. You are a vampire. Being "busy for a a year" happens.

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        • #19
          Depending on interpretation, it takes either 3 or 5 successes, but also requires a bit of studying, which should be fairly obvious if it is during a conversation or meeting.

          Also, the possibility that the botch, gives falsi info, is a possiblevrisk for the observer.


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          • #20
            Originally posted by Illithid View Post
            I'm not sure you can aura perceive through a mirror?
            (And Nosimplehiway : Diablerist has committed diablerie. Diabolist is someone who deals with the infernal)

            Anyone who has been taught Aura perception should know what the veins mean, so has to know about Diablerie.
            I know that in LARPS, people have been anal about Aura perception of everyone as they enter the Elysium, often with Metal Detectors etc as well.
            But an Elysium is meant to be sanctuary for all inside, keeping it sacred is important, and theoretically a Sherrif of Scourge can be punished for chasing up a Diablerist in Elysium if they break Elysium. No one has more power than the keeper of Elysium.
            I'm not sure about auras in a mirror. I would think so, I mean visual info is visual info, right?

            Thanks for the correction on diablerist/diabolist. I always, but always, mix those two up.

            I also do my best to avoid pronouncing Tzimisce.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
              I'm not sure about auras in a mirror. I would think so, I mean visual info is visual info, right?
              Debatable. An easy argument could be made that using Aura Perception on a mirror will show you the aura of the mirror, not of the things reflected in it. Auras are magical bullshit, they aren't light.

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              • #22
                More asking than looking to debate. Really, it's kind of the crux of my question: can you view auras in a mirror?

                I mean, Auspex 2 would be blocked by a mirror, right? If an Elysium had a large floor to ceiling mirror hung in the middle of the room, you couldn't view auras on the other side through it, right? So it interacts with aura vision in some way. (Leaving Bloodlines out of this, where aura vision has an x-ray vision component.)

                It sounds like a small question, but it could really matter to a diablerist (ha! did it right.) who needs to know when it's safe to return from their "trip to see friends". I suppose even without a mirror you could just look down at the aura around your hand...

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                • #23
                  Im more interested in the idea of if anyone taught the power automatically knows what each color means, specifically the black viens?

                  I would say no, as again, I don't think most Sire's or even Mentors are going to want to go into it, (requiring they then explain how Diablerie works).

                  It is not a terribly common thing in the Camarilla, but is one of the things that Sires and elders, (lower case), fear.


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                  • #24
                    I would’nt allow one to check their own aura through a mirror or otherwise for that matter. Auraperception is about observing emotional and spiritual energies surrounding someone after all. As a side note I do seem to remember a book somewhere mentioning that it can be used by blind Cainites/Kindred as well, whom obviously perceive it differently, so it is not so much about seeing but sensing in a more general sense.

                    As for the knowledge of colors. I always play it as no you do not automatically know what the colors mean as you learn the power. Either you need someone to teach you their meaning or you must learn them on your own through careful observation.

                    That being said I do think that most would see such blackveins as a bad sign, even if they knew nothing of diablerie or infernalism, they seem to me to be something one would instinctively feel as not belonging there. And teaching neonates that blackveins in aura are a sign of the worst crimes possible to commit, crimes so heinous as to corrupt ones very soul does not in it self have a requirement of teching anything about diablerie itself, only that any with such markings should be considered as the worse kind of criminals and the example given could easily be of infernalism instead of diablerie.
                    Last edited by Possessed; 02-14-2018, 02:53 PM. Reason: Typo

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                    • #25
                      You're not playing a character from the average first person game, you can just look anywhere on your body for your own aura.


                      Be correct.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by PewPew View Post
                        You're not playing a character from the average first person game, you can just look anywhere on your body for your own aura.
                        Considering how Aura Perception is about interpreting and perceiving a subjects emotional state and his very inner nature, revealing the subjects true nature whether that is a shapeshifter, Fae or a vampire I’d say it generally only works on an external subject that you can sense in it’s entirety. In other words nothing in the powers description indicates it could be used on oneself.

                        Currently I have easy access to V20VtDA which repeatedly, and explicitly, uses language like studuying anothers soul clearly indicating that the intent is that one cannot read own soul.

                        Personally I find it quite ridiculous to think one could peer deep into ones own soul by looking down on ones own torso or hand Etc.

                        But if it enriches your game you are free to interpret the power differently of course, YMMV.
                        Last edited by Possessed; 02-14-2018, 02:21 PM. Reason: Typo

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Possessed View Post
                          Considering how Aura Perception is about interpreting and perceiving a subjects emotional state and his very inner nature, revealing the subjects true nature whether that is a shapeshifter, Fae or a vampire I’d say it generally only works on an external subject that you can sense in it’s entirety. In other words nothing in the powers description indicates it could be used on oneself.
                          So you've made something up, and then internalised your opinion into what you think the sourcebook said.

                          I for one think it'd be a little silly if the soul is quite so easily readable as a moodring, but I'm not going to call people ridiculous over it.


                          Be correct.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by PewPew View Post
                            So you've made something up, and then internalised your opinion into what you think the sourcebook said.
                            Well then... I made something up did I?
                            Originally posted by V20VtDA p.194 Under Auspex description
                            Eventually, he can see the colors of the souls around him, read minds, and pierce the illusions made by other monsters.
                            Note the wording, souls around him not souls in general and not souls within him. In general clearly indicating the power targets things outside of yourself.

                            Now for the power itself, which is called Read the Soul by the way and which in both naming and requirements is exactly the same as similar mage powers under Mind and Spirit Spheres that allow one to read others souls.

                            Originally posted by V20VtDA p.195 Read the Soul
                            The practitioner’s mind translates the impressions she gets from another’s soul as colors, temperatures, or even scents. The impressions and feelings from other souls can be interpreted, but never translated in a repeatable, universal fashion.
                            The important parts should be obvious... another’s soul... from other souls...

                            Originally posted by V20VtDA p.195 Read the Soul 2nd chapter
                            Reading another’s soul can provide great insight to their emotional state.
                            Originally posted by V20VtDA p.196 Read the Soul mechanics
                            The soul-gazer must actively and attentively observe her subject, allowing the sense of the soul to wash over her.
                            Again even in the system part it is made clear that one must observe a subject allowing ones senses to wash over said target, the wording is pretty obviously referring to someone other as the subject than the observer itself. Also it is quite hard to allow ones senses totruly wash over yourself as you cannot observe yourself from the outside.

                            So there is not a single syllable there to suggest one could read ones own soul rather the wording is extremely clear that it is used on others.

                            Originally posted by PewPew
                            I for one think it'd be a little silly if the soul is quite so easily readable as a moodring
                            Silly or not that is actually part of the games rules and a consistent enough part that it translates as is with other lines soul reading powers.

                            Like your signature says be correct.

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                            • #29
                              Using this power, the vampire can perceive the psychic “auras” that radiate from mortals and supernatural beings alike.
                              Throughout the description of Auspex 2, V20 avoids any reference to "reading others", and almost seems to avoid identifying the direct object in most descriptions. It repeatedly refers to the very neutral "the subject", as if to avoid taking a stand on much of anything. Just from the intentionally vague, and therefore broad, language, I think it can work on oneself.

                              The only hesitation I have is when looking at the dice-pool. It includes Empathy, which if you read the description on p.101 of V20, seems to really hammer home the fact that this is for understanding other people. Seriously, I never noticed how intensely it rules out using Empathy for self-knowledge.

                              Empathy You understand the emotions of others, and can sympathize with, feign sympathy for, or play on such emotions as you see fit. You are adept at discerning motive, and might be able to discern when someone’s lying to you. However, you may be so in tune with other people’s feelings that your own emotions are affected.
                              So, umm, I think I just made a pretty good argument, then convinced myself I was wrong.

                              My aura is soooo mottled and shifting right now.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                                Im more interested in the idea of if anyone taught the power automatically knows what each color means, specifically the black viens?

                                I would say no, as again, I don't think most Sire's or even Mentors are going to want to go into it, (requiring they then explain how Diablerie works).

                                It is not a terribly common thing in the Camarilla, but is one of the things that Sires and elders, (lower case), fear.
                                I'm with beckett on this. My V:TM games have always been played in such a way that a character has to learn what all the different colors and patterns mean. With experience, most of the colors should become fairly obvious.. you see a person's aura is a certain color, you talk to them and find out their sad.. after enough of this you get to figure out that a certain color means someone is sad. You see enough "sharp, flickering colors", you start to figure out that person is Malkavian (right?).

                                But how are you going to learn what the black streaks mean? If you talk to a person who has the marks, it wouldn't come up in typical conversation and, even if they know what the auspex user is talking about, they wouldn't want to answer if specifically questioned about the marks. Camarilla elders specifically don't want their underlings to know about Diablerie. A Camarilla sire/mentor, even if they know what the marks mean, are likely to just tell an auspex user "stay away from those people with black marks". Assamites might be willing to share their knowledge, but what they know might be a little misleading too.. after all, they know that diablerie ISN'T the only way to get black marks, somehow their entire warrior caste was cursed with black marks. So basically there are three ways I see Camarilla members learning about Diablerie. The first is to be in a position where you "need to know", such as being a Sheriff in a city that has had diablerists in the past (because someone needs to know enough to tell the new sheriff about it), the second is to actually watch a kindred commit diablerie and see the black marks appear for yourself, and the third is to have the Sabbat tell you about it (IIRC, the Anarchs want other Anarchs to know, but they don't talk to the Camarilla about it both to keep the peace and because they don't want to the elders to know how many Anarchs know about Diablerie.)

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