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  • "Our Vampires are Different"

    Has it ever really bugged anyone else how much contact vampires and kuei-jin will have in the books like Blood & Silk, but will still pull the "little to no knowledge of other supernaturals".

    Other supernaturals Like fera and mages I can understand, the books were in separate universes(though more resent ones are trying bring them closer). The Kuei-jin/vampires have always been in the same world on the other hand, and when the two blood suckers do try to have contact/dig up information on each other it comes off(to me) like like the characters are brain-dead when they come back disregarding information they've been straight up told by the people in the know.

    It also kind of bothers me how a kuei jin can walk into vampire-land and still act haughty and arrogant, even though they're straight up seeing with their own two eyes a place were "chi harmony" doesn't matter(and thus undermining a large portion of their belief structure), (Potentially)see that vampires exist that are equal-to-or-more powerful than their ancestors, and that vampires "embrace" can generate as many vampires as they require. Where's the shock? The paranoia? Why are they blowing off facts that challenge their knowledge of vampires and their own world view in general? Why are running monkey nobodies coming back acting like crushing the century-long plans of methusela was like teaching the leader of some barbarian tribe what the bullet from a gun feels like?

    I can ignore the strange way the KotE sound like a badly translated anime, but some of it conflicts with how cWOD and vampire in particular are supposed to function.

  • #2
    I've not read most of the support books for K-J, so there may be details I'm missing. Frankly, the core book was more than enough for my taste. (To each their own.)

    Remember, characters in-world have read even fewer WW books than I have, though.

    Do both sides of the equation actually think of one another as the same species, or even related in any way? I mean, in some ways, Cainites are more similar to were-spiders, and K-J are more similar to certain unseelie fae or mages with some very weird paradox flaws, than either are similar to one another. Especially when viewed in the sort of broad strokes one would see from the occasional street fight or tense negotiation.

    Once the characters, in-world, doubt that Cainites and K-J are anything more than two entirely different supernatural species who have some coincidental and superficial similarities (which has the happy luck of actually being true), any further generalizations or conclusions would become impossible. Both groups might have lots of data points, but be unable to reach any real conclusions.

    For a parallel example from the real world, cats are good at climbing, have claws, give birth to live young, have over-sized teeth, and, often, big, fuzzy tails. Squirrels are good at climbing, have claws, give birth to live young, have over-sized teeth, and, often, big, fuzzy tails. If I leave an open can of tuna outside, it may attract one the stray cats in my neighborhood. If I knew nothing about Earth animals, I might be surprised no squirrels are attracted to a yummy meal of tuna. Once I deduce that cats and squirrels, though superficially quite similar, are two very different species, I will learn to not generalize too much between them.

    On the other hand, both drive my dog absolutely bonkers if either is spotted in the yard while he is on the screen porch, so there's that.

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    • #3
      Cainites and Kuei-Jin might have nifty super powers, heightened senses, and exceedingly long lifespans, but in the end, they are all still human beings. Now with that as a baseline let us consider how messed up humans are when it comes to knowing things or maintaining beliefs in the face of blatantly contradictory evidence.....um, yeah.

      ​To make matters worse, in the case of Cainites knowledge is hoarded and used like poker chips. The Kuei-Jin at least tend to have a more stable society that allows for the transfer of ideas and concepts. So it doesn't surprise me that knowledge gaps exist.

      Nosimplehiway thanks to your comments about the animals, I now can't unsee the Sabbat as squirrels and the Camarilla as cats.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
        If I leave an open can of tuna outside, it may attract one the stray cats in my neighborhood. If I knew nothing about Earth animals, I might be surprised no squirrels are attracted to a yummy meal of tuna. Once I deduce that cats and squirrels, though superficially quite similar, are two very different species, I will learn to not generalize too much between them.
        You must have different squirrels, because the ones around where I am are rather opportunistic and will eat unattended food meant for cats.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Thoth View Post
          Cainites and Kuei-Jin might have nifty super powers, heightened senses, and exceedingly long lifespans, but in the end, they are all still human beings. Now with that as a baseline let us consider how messed up humans are when it comes to knowing things or maintaining beliefs in the face of blatantly contradictory evidence.....um, yeah.

          ​To make matters worse, in the case of Cainites knowledge is hoarded and used like poker chips. The Kuei-Jin at least tend to have a more stable society that allows for the transfer of ideas and concepts. So it doesn't surprise me that knowledge gaps exist.
          My problem is that they still have this strange idea that they're the same species, despite evidence to the contrary, well into the modern nights. I can believe a dark ages game where the two sides are both dealing with each other from limited knoweldge(methods of obtaining and spreading information, as well as any form of education, were primative and tradition based after all).

          Modern day Is much different, ideas spread globally every day, and even things like getting access the deep web takes 5 minutes when someone knows where to look(which also kind of blows holes in some cWOD themes, considering some keeping some groups like caintiff/panders from forming into a collective becomes an uphill battle the moment websites and private servers exist). Travel and social changes have also dissolved much of the barriers for people to just talk. So not only can a young kuei jin learn anything they want if they find a newer vampire who doesn't give a crap, they could just hack a blood-net website from home(and vise versa for the vampire side)

          There really isn't any reason for a majority of vampires to just know kuei jin are a different species with their own strange magic and vice versa. It wouldn't really change much anyway, they'd still hate each others guts after all.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

            You must have different squirrels, because the ones around where I am are rather opportunistic and will eat unattended food meant for cats.
            Clearly your squirrels have an overabundance of yin energy. It's just smart of them to compensate.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post

              Clearly your squirrels have an overabundance of yin energy. It's just smart of them to compensate.
              Okay, but the squirrels also tend to go Highlander on any rats that they run into.

              (Not even joking. One bite and there's a rat head just lying there in the yard.)

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Prometheas View Post

                My problem is that they still have this strange idea that they're the same species, despite evidence to the contrary, well into the modern nights. I can believe a dark ages game where the two sides are both dealing with each other from limited knoweldge(methods of obtaining and spreading information, as well as any form of education, were primative and tradition based after all).

                Modern day Is much different, ideas spread globally every day, and even things like getting access the deep web takes 5 minutes when someone knows where to look(which also kind of blows holes in some cWOD themes, considering some keeping some groups like caintiff/panders from forming into a collective becomes an uphill battle the moment websites and private servers exist). Travel and social changes have also dissolved much of the barriers for people to just talk. So not only can a young kuei jin learn anything they want if they find a newer vampire who doesn't give a crap, they could just hack a blood-net website from home(and vise versa for the vampire side)

                There really isn't any reason for a majority of vampires to just know kuei jin are a different species with their own strange magic and vice versa. It wouldn't really change much anyway, they'd still hate each others guts after all.

                ​I think part of this is that you are looking at this from the meta position of having read everything and trying to force it through a modern mentality lens, rather than looking at it from the perspective of the supposed vampires. But lets look at the similarities, differences, and creation myths for a moment.

                Similarities
                ​Both can consume blood to survive
                ​Both avoid daylight (rot vs burning)
                ​Both have an internal emotional burden that comes with being undead (souls vs the beast)
                Both use constructed morality systems to avoid losing themselves.
                ​Both are functionally immortal barring injury
                Both come from human stock
                Both react poorly to holy sites, power, etc.
                ​Both can use magic (disciplines, thaumaturgy, etc)
                ​Both can learn how to interact with spirits/ghosts/etc.
                Both can cross into different planes of existence using magic.
                ​Both have clanless populations. From the Cainite perspective the Kuei-jin might as well be a bunch of Caitiff that simply join secret societies.
                Both have examples of individuals eating things other than blood. In the case of the Kuei-jin you have flesh, breath and ambient chi. In the case of Cainites you have flesh (naraja), souls (necormany), animal blood, and Kindred blood.

                ​Creation Myths
                ​Supposedly Cainites were damned by God because of Cain slaying abel, while Kuei-jin are cursed by their own behaviors but escape their just punishment. In both cases you have divine punishment for a crime that is controlled by higher beings than the vampires themselves. Alternatively the entire Yomi experience could just be a very vivid psychological experience that happens after death for the Kuei-jin bloodline, not unlike how all malkavians are insane and have access to the madness network.

                The Differences
                ​Cainites are created by blood transferal regardless of life time behavior
                Kuei-jin are created based on their life time behavior and where in the world they died.

                Now all of that is just off the top of my head, I am sure I could dig up even more. But at a cursory examination, Cainites and Kuei-jin do look like related species, admittedly with cultural differences and altered power sets, but related all the same.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
                  Has it ever really bugged anyone else how much contact vampires and kuei-jin will have in the books like Blood & Silk, but will still pull the "little to no knowledge of other supernaturals".
                  Generally the books treat the Americas as Normative for Kindred society with some reach into Europe, The Ashirra are exotic, the Jati are exotic, the Laibon are exotic. So treating the insular people who have no interaction with the KJ as basically ignorant of them makes sense.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Thoth View Post
                    ​Supposedly Cainites were damned by God because of Cain slaying abel, while Kuei-jin are cursed by their own behaviors but escape their just punishment. In both cases you have divine punishment for a crime that is controlled by higher beings than the vampires themselves. Alternatively the entire Yomi experience could just be a very vivid psychological experience that happens after death for the Kuei-jin bloodline, not unlike how all malkavians are insane and have access to the madness network.
                    Hallucinations don't usually chase after you and have a welded-together region of the spirit world made of the dark and living Umbrae, though. While few things about what, exactly, your po experienced in hell can be exactly certain, it's definitely a place that you, and a lot of others can visit. It's not really a good idea to go there, but it's a definite location that's even leaked into Near Realms in part (In Umbra Revised, there's a Wicked City annex in CyberRealm), along with the horrific Broken Mirrors where it leaks through into the physical world.

                    On the other hand, the Tou Mu they have is straight out of Deities and Demigods for AD&D 1e, so who can really believe that?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                      Hallucinations don't usually chase after you and have a welded-together region of the spirit world made of the dark and living Umbrae, though. While few things about what, exactly, your po experienced in hell can be exactly certain, it's definitely a place that you, and a lot of others can visit. It's not really a good idea to go there, but it's a definite location that's even leaked into Near Realms in part (In Umbra Revised, there's a Wicked City annex in CyberRealm), along with the horrific Broken Mirrors where it leaks through into the physical world.

                      On the other hand, the Tou Mu they have is straight out of Deities and Demigods for AD&D 1e, so who can really believe that?

                      KJ can be certain of their experience, but can kindred? Is what they are being told literal? is it some sort of wierd fucking embrace rite like the Sabbat engage in? Is it a "clan flaw" or is the whole damned thing a translation error?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Thoth View Post
                        Nosimplehiway thanks to your comments about the animals, I now can't unsee the Sabbat as squirrels and the Camarilla as cats.
                        Hmmm, if I'm looking for metaphors... the Camarilla are cats who think they're lions, the Sabbat are dogs who think they're wolves, Autarkis are squirrels who think they're field mice, the Talmahera are laying hens who think they're remora, and the Kuei-Jin are silkworms who think they're the mulberry tree.

                        The Inconnu, obviously, are hagfish.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                          Okay, but the squirrels also tend to go Highlander on any rats that they run into.

                          (Not even joking. One bite and there's a rat head just lying there in the yard.)
                          (Ok, sorry to derail a bit, but now I have to homebrew a Mockery Breed of Were-Squirrels designed by Pentex to fight the Ratkin and decimate protected woodlands. Thanks, Saur Ops Specialist! Off to the lab!)

                          We now return you to your previous Vampire conversation.

                          Please stand by.


                          "Everybody is a book of blood; wherever we're opened, we're red." - Clive Barker, The Books of Blood

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Lian View Post


                            KJ can be certain of their experience, but can kindred? Is what they are being told literal? is it some sort of wierd fucking embrace rite like the Sabbat engage in? Is it a "clan flaw" or is the whole damned thing a translation error?
                            Can't Kindred use Auspex 2 Aura Perception to know and to confirm that the Kuei-jin are a distinct kind of Nightfolk from the Kindred?
                            Last edited by Muad'Dib; 02-12-2018, 12:52 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                              You must have different squirrels, because the ones around where I am are rather opportunistic and will eat unattended food meant for cats.

                              I have the same problem with raccoons and opossums coming around at night to eat left over cat food.

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