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  • #16
    The usual strategy for characters like yours that don't favor personal combat is to make friends with people who do. From the sound of things you don't know you're threatened in-character so that limits the reasonable options without getting too meta gamey.

    First, it may well be okay to lose this battle. It will instill confidence in the player who outmaneuvered your fledgeling vampire but your character could learn a lot from the experience. So don't bet everything on countering this sucker punch play.

    Second, while you may not be able to justify enough armed friends to counter the incursion, you can complicate their unlives without metagaming too much. If the area you're in isn't entirely safe, hire mortal security. They may not slow down a Sabbat pack but they'll buy you time to escape. If the area is safe, why not talk to the ST about inviting another vampire into your area? Even if the other vampire isn't strong it can work in your favor if they have powerful allies. Your character probably should be finding ways to leverage what they have to make friends and build connections anyway so this is a path that makes sense. It might also change how your PC ally evaluates the offer to join the Sabbat.

    Basically with this style of character your goal is to avoid being dragged into a face to face fight unless its on your terms. Most of the time you dodge and weave and run away, then talk to your allies and portray your attackers as opportunistic barbarians. Maybe make them out to be loose cannons who are a danger to everyone.

    Long term maybe think about keeping your auspex high as the worst thing that can happen to you is someone dangerous getting the drop on you and auspex can help prevent that.
    Last edited by Lanir; 02-15-2018, 04:56 AM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Lian View Post

      Many other people are giving you rather wise suggestions on how to handle this oocly. And yes Vampire does try to promote a certain "every man for himself attitude" but.. its a short and self destructive path. The power of groups rising up against lone elders is a story that goes back to the First city in the setting, apparently each generation keeps forgetting this but its a rather simple one. A united Coterie is much more powerful than the sum of its parts and is much more capable of engaging with the world that is trying to destroy it, so playing a vampire who's united with their coterie and not looking to fuck everyone over in pvp is perfectly acceptable and powerful game play in Vampire.

      That being said sometimes we accept certain aspects of a game because we like other aspects of the game, and we decide to engage in aspects we like less because of this.

      That being said since you don't want to just beat him to death(which you could easily get a full how to run the system for this here). My suggestion is go to your primogen worried about how the Malkavian bragged about having gotten away with diablerie(expand the story as best you can) now as the Malkavian is already on the shit list with the prince. This should get him called in for questioning at the very least.. and possibly just straight to blood Hunt.

      Either way his secret is getting blown here, its a little meta but honestly politicing to get him banished/blood hunted seems your best ic bet. Without his secret connections the upfront Sabbat seige changes things so that you should be getting support quicker as Sabbat is everyone's problem.







      Have you or the Ventrue tried using Presence or Dominate on the hunters? If so what happened? If you both know icly about the problem compare notes. The situation is pretty dangerous for you as if the Cam finds out.. you are pretty much dead so you need to coopt them. So Dominate and presence along with ghouling should be the plan.


      Some great ideas, I do like the suggestion with the Primogen and the Prince. I will definitely have that as an idea to use if needed. My character is suspicious of the Malkavian and so is monitoring what she gets up to so hopefully may uncover some truth but my character is in good enough standing and the Malkavian is in such bad standing that it would work very well!

      How is best to win support in the Camarilla?

      We did, he is a low gen so dominate failed and my presence didn't work as well as I wanted it to, it affected his goons so we were able to escape. I found out that they will not pursue me if its not cost effective or costs too many lives as some of the members have families etc, I think I should find their families and blackmail them back, make them see its not worth their time to come after me and the Ventrue.

      Cheers for your suggestions!

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
        Honest discussion with fellow players is the best ooc way to deal with a situation like this.

        For ic solutions, which usually are the best way to help build a good story, I have a few questions.
        1. What personal resources does your character bring to the table? What disciplines and how many dots? What backgrounds? What are their highest attributes and abilities? Whether they have an eight dice pool in Dex+Firearms and two levels of Celerity, or eight dice in Manipulation+Subterfuge and two levels of Presence, will necessarily dictate your options. Does the character have any notable weaknesses, like deep sleeper or a family member they take care of? What's their nature and demeanor?
        2. What is your character's actual long-term goal? Where do they see themselves in fifty years? Does pure physical safety matter most, even if life is boring and unengaged? Do they crave a small group of supportive friends they can spend decades enjoying? Do they want to make significant changes to the vampiric status quo through either revolution or politicking? Do they want to spend their time enjoying a particular mortal community, like artists, their mortal family, or an ethnic enclave?
        3. Quick problem inventory. Forget the looming threat of invasion. What is the character's most immediate problem right now, tonight, that they know of? Are they often low on blood? Is their haven uncomfortable, insecure, or unsafe? Are they lonely and craving relationships? Are they low on cash? Did the last game session end with them lost in the Borough Hall station, not sure which train to take back to their haven? Solving one or two small, immediate problems may help you learn strategies your character can use to work on bigger problems later.
        4. There are things we'd rather not do, and things we absolutely can't bring ourselves to do. What is your character completely unwilling or too afraid to do? You say you "hate" player v player physical combat, but don't mind politics. How does your character feel about that? Are they actually willing to die to avoid combat? How about betraying friends? Would they sacrifice mortal's lives to save themselves? Would they ruin families? Ruin communities? Does the character actually care whether they are Sabbat or Camarilla? How important is that 8 Humanity?
        5. A little more about the setting, rather than table dynamics would be helpful. Which neighborhood in Brooklyn is the Domain? Brownsville and Carroll Gardens may only be a 30 minute train ride away from one another, but they are different worlds. What is the balance of power between the sects? Is the Camarilla likely to be in control in ten years? How does the ST run the Sabbat... as evil blood nazis, or as extremists using questionable methods to confront a real threat? Are there powerful third parties, like the Giovanni, Anarchs, or Setites involved? Who are the adversaries of your adversaries? (I'm guessing the hunter wouldn't mind knowing where the Sabbat sleep for the day!) Help can come from the strangest places if you think around the corner.

        1. I have 2 dot resources as the hunters took most of my money, I have 4 dots in mentor for my Toreador primogen, he managed to help me get hidden but in a physical confrontation he would be pretty useless. My character has 2 dots in auspex, 2 in celerity and 1 in presence. Her strength is words, she has 4 in empathy, 3 in expression, 4 in etiquette, 3 in subterfuge, 3 in charisma and manipulation and a lot of merits boosting them, I have at least 2 extra dice and -2 difficulty on chatting. My character is a caregiver in every way. Her weakness is her family which are currently being used against her by the hunters.

        2. She wants to defeat the hunters, known as the lancing foundation. She wants to be reunited with her family but also make a success of herself, be respected in the Camarilla with a lot of territory under her control. She plans to run a lot of nightclubs and bars. She would like to be political about things, violence is not her thing. The Sabbat weren't nice to her so she wants them gone through none violent means. She has no problem with the Anarchs as she gets on with the main one and he causes few problems and none for her.

        3. Currently she is living in a basement and needs to move out and get her own place, she's currently working on that.

        4. I hate PvP as in combat, I'm not as fussed on political moves. My character is not quite a pacifist, she'd defend herself or someone else but would never start a fight and she'd never kill anyone. As a meta thing, my ST has said no-one ever lasts as a humanity 8 character, as a challenge for myself I would love to keep my humanity 8 if possible, we all started humanity 8. One is now 5, one is 6 and the other two are 7, I'm the only humanity 8 left. My character doesn't want to upset the camarilla, especially her Primogen as she thinks the world of him, she doesn't want to kill anyone. She does like the idea of a political game, an antitribu toreador recently caused problems so she planted a fake news story that antitribu nightclub is unsanitary causing hassle with fewer customers and board of health visits. The big no no for my character is killing and starting a combat.

        5. Brooklyn heights is the domain, the Malkavian controls Cobble hill and another Malkavian controls Dumbo. My character is normally from Manhattan, she has been promised domain by the Primogen if she buys the land in Manhattan but she can't currently afford it. She is currently in talks to take over Borough Park or Carroll Gardens (Gardens as a vassal though). Camarilla are very powerful in Manhattan but not Brooklyn, its a bit of a jungle really, after 3 months of owning a domain, the camarilla will defend it for you but not until its been held for 3 months. OOC I know there is a sabbat army coming to take some of north Brooklyn and then attack Manhattan. The primogens do not really associate with each other in the Camarilla, the toreador primogen is best friends with the prince but thats about it for interaction. They'll be slaughtered as they aren't united. The Sabbat seem to be sophisticated people from what she's met, cunning and go about things cleverly.

        The hunters against the Sabbat! What an idea! Thanks so much!!!

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by PewPew View Post
          I would really disagree with any notion that you should beg your storyteller to dial all the players back. That's the worst thing. I'd rather have everyone give everyone final death than neuter the game and setting.
          Importantly; Does your character know what's going on, or is this just you getting meta?
          Do what your character would do, forget the party, (unless there's an option that satisfies both parties) never do something your character wouldn't do just for other players.
          If you do know what's going on, then trust your elders, and tell them everything you know. I mean, don't literally trust your elders, but as you've got no real ambition (don't lie, 8 humanity means no ambition) then your only reason to fear them is that... well elders have a habbit of being elders. Sabbat armies are mostly fodder and really don't mean much to the machinations of these fellows

          You should always be using and cultivating backgrounds to use when shit hits the fan. Having a few extra places to hide, someone who'll get their hands dirty for you, money, a way out of the city. So on and so forth.

          The Sabbat part is meta, though IC I know something is going on now. She's convinced some locals to keep a track on the Malkavian for a while as she doesn't trust the Malkavian, their entire attitude has completely changed, their insanity has changed as well which is really suspicious.

          I'll get working on my backgrounds, thanks for the suggestion!

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Pnizzle View Post
            Investigate everyone's backgrounds/connections/coteries/secrets. You don't need to resort to violence to be intimidating. They just need to think you could cause them trouble. Christopher walken is a prime example.

            Exploit your knowledge of your opponents to gain influence. The vampire hunters are already showing you how it's done. They find you and exploit you to jump to the next mark. Also they'll find their ability to move around restricted cause they're influence isn't protecting them anymore.

            You can undermine your opponents power by enthralling (entrance, blood bond, etc) their ghouls/human retainers without their knowledge. If you can keep it a secret it's an ace in your sleeve when they confront you and their people turn on them.

            I love that method, she's investigating them currently to find their weaknesses. The hunters will not pursue if its not financially viable or if it becomes too much trouble so she needs to make sure its too much hassle especially if she can find their ghouls!

            Thanks

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Gothik_Knight View Post
              Honestly, your greatest strength at this point is being a loyal member of the Camarilla. Your second greatest strength is that you didn't actually cause any of this trouble. Your third greatest strength is that everybody KNOWS that you don't know what's going on.

              So here's what you do. Hide from the Hunters (and your Ventrue buddy). Warn your (Toreador) primogen that you discovered your Ventrue friend has been approached by hunters and that he might be paying them and leading them to other Kindred. There you go. You've helped protect the Masquerade. Good job.

              Moreover, ask the Toreador primogen to help you hide until the Hunters are dealt with. You're a neonate and clearly can't deal with Hunters yourself.. asking for help is a sign of weakness, but the elders expect you to be weak, now show them that you're smart enough to know when to ask for help. You might even show them how compassionate you are by asking them to check in on some of your friends.. *sly wink*

              Okay.. so honestly my plan has the flaw of expecting elders to behave reasonably. If, for some reason, the elders start to suggest that killing you may get the Hunters off their track, or that they might just be able to hide and let things blow over, remind them they may already be under surveillance and, even if they aren't, the Hunters likely are already tracking other Kindred in the city. Killing you or hiding wouldn't actually solve the problem.

              The Toreador primogen has offered her sanctuary so that is an option. She's trying not to accept but that is a great idea to ask them to look after my friends
              The other primogens may not behave rationally but at least one will so that's a good idea.

              Thanks!

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Lanir View Post
                The usual strategy for characters like yours that don't favor personal combat is to make friends with people who do. From the sound of things you don't know you're threatened in-character so that limits the reasonable options without getting too meta gamey.

                First, it may well be okay to lose this battle. It will instill confidence in the player who outmaneuvered your fledgeling vampire but your character could learn a lot from the experience. So don't bet everything on countering this sucker punch play.

                Second, while you may not be able to justify enough armed friends to counter the incursion, you can complicate their unlives without metagaming too much. If the area you're in isn't entirely safe, hire mortal security. They may not slow down a Sabbat pack but they'll buy you time to escape. If the area is safe, why not talk to the ST about inviting another vampire into your area? Even if the other vampire isn't strong it can work in your favor if they have powerful allies. Your character probably should be finding ways to leverage what they have to make friends and build connections anyway so this is a path that makes sense. It might also change how your PC ally evaluates the offer to join the Sabbat.

                Basically with this style of character your goal is to avoid being dragged into a face to face fight unless its on your terms. Most of the time you dodge and weave and run away, then talk to your allies and portray your attackers as opportunistic barbarians. Maybe make them out to be loose cannons who are a danger to everyone.

                Long term maybe think about keeping your auspex high as the worst thing that can happen to you is someone dangerous getting the drop on you and auspex can help prevent that.

                More great ideas! Thanks so much, will work on using my exp to boost my auspex. I do like the idea of keeping things on my terms! Thanks for the suggestions!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Seems to me your biggest issue ain't the Sabbat or your buddies but a lack of information. Right now, your fellows are doing their thing while you are trying to figure out whois who and what is what. That has to change. Sabbat armies are neat but information is neater. So... luckily you are just the right guy (or gal?) to change that.

                  Fist: know your enemy. You got Auspex and Auspex rules. Use it to gain information whereever you can. Learn what's going on around you.
                  Second: as a humanity 8 Torry with Presence and probably some social skills, i bet you are a pretty likeable fellow. Go find some friends. How about that Nossy down there in the sewers who is pretty good with computers and stuff. I bet he doesn't like that snobby Ventrue all too much. And maybe he always wantet his own, nice basement and hunting rights in that domain of yours. After all, aknowledgement goes a long way if you look like a modern arts masterpiece.
                  Or maybe there is this one grumpy Gangrel fellow, who just want's to be left alone and could use someone, who gets the social shit done for him, if that comes up.
                  Be nice, make friends. You ain't the only neonate who has to figure unlife out. Help them help themselves (and yourself in the process).

                  Third: a Sabbat army is no precise tool. They are bound to mess things up and piss people off. Help them piss off the right people. Same goes for the Hunters. Maybe help them piss off eacb other. I wonder what could possibly go wrong there...

                  Baseline: your main goal is to survive the next few nights and gather as much knoweledge as possible. Build your own ressources by inventing them/ looking for them. And worry about domain later. Turf will come with respect and respect comes with age, survival and with getting stuff done.

                  That said ... good luck with that and have fun ^^^

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    "PVP is NOT a part of gaming, it is an optional part of gaming and you shouldn't be forced into it if you don't want to. You should discuss this with your ST and fellow players."

                    So much of this. I won't touch on the actual gaming advice pieces because reading over what others have suggested it sounds like you have quite a bit of good advice and some potentially new ideas to try. But I did want to touch on your concerns about PVP.

                    If all of the players agree then PVP can be fun for them, if it is player driven and coordinated. If you step back however you'll find that many PVP heavy games wind up collapsing because the story becomes very difficult to drive when new PCs keep popping up due to character death. Players become mostly interested in killing other PCs like some FPS or the Sopranos on crack. If you see the game going this route, especially with these other players having played through this campaign before without you, then the game may not be for you.

                    If the game seems to be run a little bit more like pro wrestling in that the PVP is a little more controlled for story purposes to allow for scenes and issues to be built up to a climax then this may work out better for you. This is the angle I think you may want to check with your ST about. If the idea is just random chaos and death then it's bad for you. But if there is some control and build up is allowed (to avoid players just steamrolling each other from the outset) you could wind up with a fun game.

                    In my experience every time, and I do mean every time, I allowed PVP in my games the pro PVP players did the following without fail: 1) if their characters didn't have a specific ability/background/or XP invested in their characters that they felt safe enough to think they couldn't just be immediately rolled, they'd attempt to just be the anti-authority type and just thumb their noses at anyone with a rank. 2) when more powerful characters came up (be they with a rank higher than theirs or otherwise) to put them back into place, because don't forget their modus operandi was political (public) destabilization, they would always cry foul because they "couldn't PVP". It didn't matter if it was an NPC that they IC berated or attacked politically or a PC the result was always the same. And while some of these were the same players, others weren't.

                    It became apparent that many people who were pro PVP in Vampire games were only pro because they wanted to essentially pick on the weaker players (either due to XP totals or lack of gaming experience). When the shoe was on the other foot and the pro PVE players were largely in charge they didn't like it because they couldn't just go around whacking players at will. Coincidentally I watched the majority of the pro PVP crowd out here cycle through characters in other games frequently because they either died and/or got into rules debates on someone's character death and left the game. And not surprisingly the vast majority of the overt PVP games have collapsed, usually over a short time span.

                    Not saying this will happen to your group but I worry that you're in a game they have more experience at than you, in a campaign they already have a lot of working knowledge over (and potential for meta-gaming no matter how honest they may be), and you admitting PVP isn't your thing per say. Speaking to your ST is a really good idea. And in the future it may be a good idea, if this doesn't work out well, to avoid PVP styled games


                    Lost Tribes Gaming:
                    Shadow of the Phoenix: Sabbat 2nd and 4th Sundays 2 pm PST to 6 pm (-7GMT)
                    Street Fighter: Generation Next 2nd and 4th Friday nights 8 pm PST to 12:00 am (-7GMT)
                    Star Wars: Republic Black Ops 2nd and 4th Wednesday nights from 7 pm to 10:00 pm PST (-7 GMT) http://www.twitch.tv/losttribesgaming.

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                    • #25
                      Ok the Primogen is your mentor.. straight up lie about the Malkavian. You have the power of words here and the Elder likes you. No one likes the Malkavian as i understand it. The prince doesn't want to look like a crazy tyrant but since you who have backing are willing to say horrible things about him the Malk can't really defend himself, since he's shaddy as all fuck and has no friends.


                      When you or the Ventrue have tried using Presence or Dominate on the hunters what has happened? I mean they don't seem to be supernaturally empowered types they tend to be much more unstable than what you've described.

                      As for getting money, do some basic financial digging in the area, look up a rich mortal, seduce him/her with Presence, blood bond them, make them your ghoul. There Free money.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        1. Don't worry about Resources. Between Presence 1, your social skills, and the blood bond, you're only poor if you want to be. Pick a rich ugly person, preferably single (fewer complications) and just be really nice to them, and they'll be really nice to you. Here's an instructional video, safe for work. Just be careful of the Humanity, but really, if you ghoul a rich guy, you're selling immortality. What would that be worth?

                        Your disciplines are excellent! Just remember, any time - every time - you enter a new scene, activate your Auspex 1 and every time you meet a new person, Auspex 2. In crowd scenes, scan for pale auras. It can be easy to forget to do this, but don't! Ask whether you sense any danger in every single scene. If you aren't annoying the ST, you aren't asking often enough. If you want to avoid combat, that means seeing trouble before it sees you. Though, frankly, with Celerity 2 you could hold your own. It's a real force multiplier. Think about adding Presence 2 at your next chance, and some Intimidation. If people are terrified of you, you won't need to fight. Plus, as a caretaker, you could make one fearsome mama bear!

                        Don't forget the bonuses that come from Auspex and Celerity to Perception and Dexterity. These have lots of applications out of combat. Perception can help in research, looking for flaws in plans, and could make you an excellent negotiator... or poker player. Dexterity is useful for escaping parkour style, but also helps dancing in clubs, soldering circuit boards, moving quickly through crowds without jostling, and running a three card monte game. Plus, you can run to catch a train in stilettoes!

                        With your skills in social interaction, go hang out in a cop bar. Make some cop friends. (Remember, Celerity and Presence makes you the sexiest dancer on the dance floor everywhere you go!) Make the sort of friends who will run as fast the can to defend you if you call. Remember, if you ghoul them, they automatically know Potence... like immediately... and can easily learn Celerity. Celerity + Potence + guns + badges = instant action hero. Just add blood and stir. You could choose mob guys or gangbangers instead, but cops are easier on your Humanity. They're useful for favor trading, too. Cop friends might be able to get your family under protective watch or even relocated to a safe-house, if it comes to that. The hunters have, in fact, committed crimes, and they are threatening your family. There's a whole mortal legal system which wants to help you, if you know how to ask right.

                        And you do!

                        2. Confrontation with hunters are a down the road issue, and frankly better dealt with directly by someone else. In the meantime, investigate their personal identities. They are threatening your family? Well, google says everyone has families, or friends, or something important to them. Now, because of your Humanity you can't just kill or torture them. But, wouldn't it give the hunter pause if you stopped in and visited their elderly grandma in the nursing home? Oh, don't do anything threatening, just introduce yourself as a friend of their grandson. Get some childhood dirt on them. Take the old lady a potted plant and some cookies. This is what Toreador are built for, just quietly insinuating themselves into mortal society in such a way that people help them.

                        Your very presence will function as a veiled threat that the hunters do not want to bring families into this.

                        On the rare chance they have no family, research their logistics chain. Buy the building where they store their weapons and cancel their lease... and hope your ST doesn't know about NY landlord laws. Report loud cries for help in their apartment to the police; this will give your cop friends probable cause to investigate, likely leading to weapons charges. Find out their favorite bar and ghoul the bartender. Tell him you want to slip them the same drug he's taking. Or, next time you give them a name for their hit list, make it a human child molester. You'll stop a predator, place the hunters in deep, deep legal trouble, and make a point about their mission in one swoop. Make sure the cops know who killed the molester.

                        Gaining influence over bars and nightclubs is easy. See section 1 above.

                        3. Blood bond someone who has real estate investments, and maybe a construction company. At least a real estate agent. Don't ignore structures related to infrastructure, like steam tunnels and disused elevator shafts. Think about places you can go, but humans can't. You could spend your days underwater, for instance. An upside down dumpster in a pool would work. You also don't get cramped up sleeping in a small space, so a flooded passageway or a small crawl space could work. Remember basic safety, like fire suppression equipment and security alarms. It doesn't sound glamorous, I know, but it can be connected to a fancy hotel or a museum. Those places are built to last, and have to meet all the fire codes. Have you considered a police precinct's basement, or a courthouse's ventilation ducts? (Just be very careful to keep close tabs on the maintenance schedules.)

                        4. You definitely sound like you already know how to play politics. As for Humanity, just refuse to do wrong. Keep your blood pool full to avoid frenzy. Do lots of random acts of kindness. Remember, you can buy Humanity up with xp, too.

                        5. Boro Park? Umm, is your character Hasidic? Speak Yiddish? It is a very Jewish neighborhood. Could make things more difficult if you're a shiksa. If your character is Orthodox Jewish, it could provide the security that comes from a very insular domain. Not much nightlife on Fridays, though. Park Slope, otoh, is an excellent domain, for nearly anyone. Possibly the most desirable in Bklyn. Hold it if you can. Remember, both ic and ooc to research it's resources. The businesses, the people, the schools, the hospitals, etc. If this is where you make your stand, make it yours and use every advantage it gives you. Ideally, you should be able to get one or two dots in every non-mystical background from a well run domain.

                        Buying into Manhattan is quite do-able, unlike in the real world. However, if one of your long-term goals is to rise in the Camarilla, being a pioneer in Brooklyn is probably a better career move.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          On PVP
                          - I prefer to Treat all "Story Telling" games like "telling" a "story".
                          George R R Martin aside, if you keep killing off the protagonists, the story won't progress, so I talk to any other people I'm playing with that I expect we may have differences and fights, but for some reason (Even if it ends up being purely OOC) these characters are the protagonists of the story and will move on together to advance that greater story. [Does not usually apply to LARPs]

                          Malkavian (And Sabbat Invasion)
                          Well, here I may contradict myself. If the Malkavian (PC) has joined the Sabbat, he may need to be dealt with. I would recommend discussing expectations (as above) but it's the kind of thing that in a Camarilla story often makes someone an NPC (Like Infernalism)
                          Do the players want to swap over to the Sabbat so that you're all on the same side? Do you want to try and recover the Malkavian to the Camarilla? Are you going to try and remain one "Group" cross sect, because that is difficult but possible.
                          If the other players are ok with Versus - Get other people to do this in order to keep your hands (And Humanity) clean. Report it to the Prince, co-opt the hunters, get the police or National guard involved with this terrorist organisation. Or research what kindred have ins with them to do this without breaching the masquarade. But that may still drop your humanity

                          Getting Power and Position
                          As a Toreador, you want to make friends with mortals and Kindred, do favours in return for favours. With Auspex it should help you realise what they want, when they're greedy for something (Aura perception) and get a better deal than average (Presence) But on Humanity 8, conning rich people out of their money would be theft, so that's out. You have to trade them for it, or get them so devoted to you that they gift things to you.

                          Hunters
                          I love the idea of visiting their family in a nursing home, very politely. Injury to another (accidental or otherwise) is a level 8 sin, so you can't try to direct the hunters into the Sabbat (some interpretations will only count what you directly do, but you're issuing certain death to these humans even if you don't pull the trigger)
                          Supernatural compulsion to get them to leave you alone or forget what they know about everyone is the best option. Or getting them legally arrested.
                          I think that the best way to get them out of the way permanently is probably have them committed to an asylum, They can spout about vampires all they like, it'll keep them in for longer. This is better than prison where they may be able to disperse the blackmail that you're a vampire and have people investigate it. (and if the Head Doctor is your ghoul, they'll never get out) - A humane and permanent solution
                          Last edited by Illithid; 02-16-2018, 03:07 AM. Reason: Spelling

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by EG2594 View Post



                            Some great ideas, I do like the suggestion with the Primogen and the Prince. I will definitely have that as an idea to use if needed. My character is suspicious of the Malkavian and so is monitoring what she gets up to so hopefully may uncover some truth but my character is in good enough standing and the Malkavian is in such bad standing that it would work very well!

                            How is best to win support in the Camarilla?

                            We did, he is a low gen so dominate failed and my presence didn't work as well as I wanted it to, it affected his goons so we were able to escape. I found out that they will not pursue me if its not cost effective or costs too many lives as some of the members have families etc, I think I should find their families and blackmail them back, make them see its not worth their time to come after me and the Ventrue.

                            Cheers for your suggestions!
                            You're looking at it from the wrong angle.. By telling your elders about the Hunters, you're helping the Camarilla. Just as the Toreador primogen WANTS to help you, the prince and Ventrue primogen have their reasons to help you as well. It is part of the Camarilla's responsibility to protect it's members, but even if we assume that the various people involved don't really care about Camarilla rules and responsibilities, they would have their own individual reasons for getting involved as well. The prince can't be seen as allowing the kindred in the domain to fall victim to hunters. If it becomes clear that the kindred can't simply lay low and hide from the hunters, the prince basically MUST take action against the hunters in order to keep the domain.. the same is true of the Sabbat. Meanwhile, the Ventrue primogen would gain prestige by cleaning up other peoples' messes.. and if he finds out that a member of his own clan is involved in making the mess worse, he will need to conceal (or at least downplay) that fact as well. The elders might try to frame everything as if they're going out of their way to help you, but in fact they are acting in their own best interests anyway.

                            Consider this offer from the Toreador Primo.. "Well.. I suppose I COULD let you use my shanty in queens as a small favor." but what's actually happening is far different. both of you potentially get ALOT out of this deal. If you stay as the Primo's guest at this location, the primo has a reason to make sure the location doesn't "get burned" (because it's his property) and he has a reason to make sure you don't get hurt (you're his guest). In essence he's saying "I will save your life for the price of a minor boon". However, the minor boon even works out to your advantage because it means the Toreador primogen is invested in you, and has reasons to see you thrive and grow, so the return on their favor will thrive and grow. For the Toreador primo, he does something that's relatively simple for him to do, and he knows that in 200 or 300 years, should you survive, he might get back more than he offered. Until he calls in the favor, you have to be just a little bit nicer to him, because you know he might call in the favor at any time.. or he might "trade" the favor to someone you don't like. (this is why, if an elder who holds a boon from you has to ask a favor, it would actually be better for you NOT to have them clear your boon, but to get a boon from them instead. Don't go crazy on owing people favors, but it's good to owe couple of small favors to some influential people.)

                            As for the Hunters, I know it's not the most exciting thing, but I strongly recommend just telling your elders about them and then leaving them alone. If you try to blackmail them, that might give them exactly the proof/motivation they need to put you and your friends and family to final death. It would give them something they could show the bureaucrats above them that they have "just cause" for going after you. Moreover, you want to make your elders solve problems and see how they do it, that way if they complain about you doing the same stuff later you can use the "well you did it" defense. Consider the surveillance of your Malkavian buddy. You sending mortals to spy on a Kindred might be seen as a breach of the masquerade, since the mortals learning about vampires is clearly a possible consequence of that action. However, if you ask the Toreador mentor to keep an eye on your buddy and THEY use mortals to do so, you now have a defense in case you need to get mortals to spy on kindred in the future. If they don't use mortals for that purpose, see what they do.. it gives you more options for things you might try in the future.

                            In closing, the Camarilla can be an oppressive regime, in which you have to obey some strict laws and arrogant elders have all the power, but most of the elders have to follow those laws as well (because there's always Archons and other elders just waiting to pounce.) and, because no one in the Camarilla really thinks much of neonates, the responsibility is usually on the elders as well. Use that to your advantage.
                            Last edited by Gothik_Knight; 02-16-2018, 06:14 AM.

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                            • #29
                              Hey everyone,

                              Thanks so much for your help so far. The Ventrue and the Malkavian betrayed my character, they sold her out to the hunters to save their own skin. They captured her and interrogated her, my character used her presence and convinced them to let them join her. She's now their informant and she can return to her old life. My character still plans to bring down the Hunters but this time from within, she has all eternity in which to do it. She's already convinced some of them only to do target the evil Vampires, such as the Sabbat... and the Ventrue and Malkavian because they started this all.

                              Now its a political game really, I've got some hunter vampires on my side which gives me one dot in allies but can go further especially when I gain more influence.

                              Thanks so far guys!

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                              • #30
                                Keep it up! Once you have control over the Hunters they aren't a masquerade Break, they are retainers. Retainers who are good at daylight raids. They become the most valuable tool for dealing with the Sabbat. Try to trick them into becoming Ghouls. This makes the more powerful as vampire hunters and gives you control over them. Its a win win.

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