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Ur-Shulgi vs. Japheth

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  • Ur-Shulgi vs. Japheth

    Hey folks,

    had that discussion with a player at the weekend and it ended in an ugly nerdwar, that got out of hand. Anyway, wanted to hear your opinion on the matter.

    White Wolf deliberately pictures Ur-Shulgi as THE badass of the WoD that apparently destroys any vampire with but a word. My Player swallowed that whole pr agency talk of ur shulgi's and believes that this little fellow could even destroy Antes, etc.
    So i told him about Japheth who is about 8.000 old and whose stats are well documented in the Giovanni Chronicles. I told him that Jaoheth would wipe the Floor with the Ur-Master. Well, we didn't come to any fruitful conclusion.

    So, what do you say? Who would win in a fight between Japheth and Ur-Shulgi?

  • #2
    Ur-Shulgi for the most part is unstatted and has enough thaumaturgy to cancel the Tremere curse. Japheth is the son of Noah, born right before the flood, Ur-Shulgi was sired a hundred years after the flood so age difference isn't huge.

    I'm going to have to go with Ur-Shulgi.

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    • #3
      There are multiple reasons that most of ur-Shulgi's Traits aren't given numerical values. First, the Assamite Methuselah is still shaking off the dust of centuries, and it's not at full operating capacity yet. Second, it doesn't matter what those Traits are — ur-Shulgi is powerful enough to crush any aggressor, except another Methuselah, without apparent effort. "Any aggressor" includes any coterie of players' characters unlucky enough to meet it and foolish enough to challenge its might. Third and finally, ur-Shulgi doesn't want anyone knowing the extent of its capabilities – what's listed here is simply what it has demonstrated to surviving witnesses thus far. However, consider this: Less than a week after being awakened by its sire, ur-Shulgi had enough power to casually shred a ritual cast by the combined might of the Tremere Inner Circle without more than the faintest exertion. That should be a good indicator of what this creature can accomplish should it choose (or be forced) to go all-out.
      I would put my money on Ur-Shulgi. That said, terms of engagement are vital in any VtM fight.

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      • #4
        Here Are the stats of Japheth:

        http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Japheth

        He too has Thaum 9 and this little disclaimer:

        NOTE: Japheth has a plethora of powers, many which are unique to him. He will not use them in most situations unless necessary.

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        • #5
          Usually when something is left unstatted it is because it doesn't need to be statted. It wins by plot armor. If your the gm you can do whatever you want, but in an all other things equal fight I'd say the Methuselah of the assassins clan would beat the meth of the scholars clan. A clan which was wiped out by an insolent bloodline of merchants and necromancers.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Marcus Meridian View Post
            So, what do you say? Who would win in a fight between Japheth and Ur-Shulgi?
            But if the Flash had a head start and Green Lantern wasn't allowed to fly, could Superman hold his breath longer than Darkseid on the moon?

            The winner would be determined by the writer in question.


            I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

            The Malkavian Madness Network

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            • #7
              Whoever wins the initiative wins.

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              • #8
                Uhh well they should probably be on a similar level of badass. That said I could see arguments made in Ur-Shulgis favour, as he was exceptionally (and I mean really exceptionally) powerful even in his younger days, wether through sheer competence or some consequences of his original mortal life. Japeth for all we know may just have been a "usual" cainite.

                That said no Ur-Shulgi cannot just kill Antes. He is Haqims herald not the other way around. He exists to show the upper end of Methuselah badassery and to contrast how much MORE powerful the Antedeluvians must be by comparison.


                My Mage 2e Homebrew

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by BenjCano View Post

                  But if the Flash had a head start and Green Lantern wasn't allowed to fly, could Superman hold his breath longer than Darkseid on the moon?

                  The winner would be determined by the writer in question.
                  So, Japheth. Happy that you Are on my side 😁

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                  • #10
                    Any member of the True hand who gets to have mage Pillars which are just better?

                    Or Ultra-instinct Goku.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Marcus Meridian View Post
                      So, what do you say? Who would win in a fight between Japheth and Ur-Shulgi?
                      Would this be a literal fight, or Japheth and Ur-Shulgi trying to plot against each other?
                      Maybe it is better to set some goal (or multiple goals) for the two, other than one of them defeating the other one? For example finding and retrieving an item or multiple items, perhaps?
                      Last edited by Muad'Dib; 02-13-2018, 04:21 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                        Would this be a literal fight, or Japheth and Ur-Shulgi trying to plot against each other?
                        Maybe it is better to set some goal (or multiple goals) for the two, other than one of them defeating the other one? For example finding and retrieving an item or multiple items, perhaps?
                        They have to write a version of VtM that has good rules.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                          They have to write a version of VtM that has good rules.
                          They're Methuselah, not God.*

                          *For the record, Lord, I'm perfectly happy with the rules that are currently available, with some tinkering.**

                          ** (I'm assuming that God wrote every edition of VtM. Why? Because she's a nice lady. That's why.)
                          Last edited by AzraelFirestorm; 02-13-2018, 05:28 PM.


                          "Everybody is a book of blood; wherever we're opened, we're red." - Clive Barker, The Books of Blood

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                          • #14
                            plot-wise, I'd put my money on the creepy child-vampire-magus that just come back from a X-thousand year Torpor and first thing destroyed his same-Generation brood brother for being inadeguate as clan regent,
                            even more because the other one was a little too gullible. Seriously, in GC he dies like a chicken.


                            That said, in a direct contront, with Japheth going all-out, I'm not so sure.
                            There was a lot of discussion some time ago about how an "Antediluvian" is more than just a "3rd Generation Kindred", because they could have been a whole different "stock" of humans than the ones after the Flood. More soul-soup or something like that...
                            But if we go with this train-of-thought, Japhet is simply made of "better stuff" than ur-Shulgi, has been around more time (child demon hunter fell in torpor quite soon) so he has more experience, and probably higher and more differentiated abilities.
                            And that said, Blood Magic in general works on a principle: if you want great effects you need great preparations.
                            Breaking a curse or killing an unsuspecting Kindred is perfectly feasible if you are strong enough and it doesn't mean you are good at direct fighting...


                            ====================================
                            "Worst English-language User" 2011-2015, 2017 running for the 2018


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                            • #15
                              Let the dices decide.

                              Or you could let the better storyline win.


                              So, this Zen Master walks up to a hot dog stand and says: "Make me one with everything!"

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