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Ur-Shulgi vs. Japheth

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
    My impression from the printed game materials was that Jamal was of 5th generation (like Tariq) and not a methuselah.
    He was embraced in the 12th century, so he's by definition not a Methuselah.

    Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
    He lost a fight to Dracula, after all.
    Yeah, but Dracula is a bullshit plot NPC. Remember how just feeding on him killed a 4th generation Tzimisce Methuselah? And how he, still a mortal, then defeats and captures two 5th generation vampires?

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
      My impression from the printed game materials was that Jamal was of 5th generation (like Tariq) and not a methuselah. More analagous to the Founders and Dastur Anosh rather than multi-millennial progeny of antediluvians like Ur-Shugli, Japheth, and Baba Yaga, or even the Weeping Master. He lost a fight to Dracula, after all. I don't think killing him is necessarily that impressive a feat for something in Ur-Shugli's weight class.
      Uhm, as long as I remember one of the requirement to be the Old Man of the Mountain was to be a direct Childe of Haqim, also Jamal was kind of the last Childe of Haqim before going underground/in torpor.
      But I could remember wrong...
      That said, I clearly remember to have read that people said he was two generation down Haqim... but could that be simply a slandering, because he had lost to a younger and less powerful vampire, and a Tzimisce nonetheless?


      Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
      That said, Ur-Shugli appeared to be focused on battle, whether by physical might or sorcery. I'd think that would trump Japheth's more balanced and varied development in a direct fight.
      I concur that ur-Shulgi would be more focused on bloodmagic, but this do not directly translate on battle prowess.
      Not all the magic paths are really useful in battle, and the fact that he could've break the Tremere curse meant he was just that powerful.

      Also, the execution of Jamal isn't really detailed (I don't remember of any real description), so we don't know if it was a challenge, a fight, a sort of ambush or just a curse ur-Shulgi launched on his "brother" from far away (he would probably be powerful enough to do that).

      Moreover, the Jamal's death is the more problematic thing about ur-Shulgi (if you roll with the "Jamal 4th Generation" thing).
      He is no judge for his brothers, that were chosen by Haqim. And what Haqim did he should not have undone. So chance are he had a personal agenda and Jamal was just in the way



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      • #33
        I rather enjoyed Becketts Diarys take on the breaking of the Tremere curse.

        Anyway, Ur-Shulgi should step carefully. The Nictuku that got to Baba Yaga is still out there. I don't think he'd put up more of a fight than the little grandmother did. And he has the looks to pass for a Nosferatu. Way I see it, Absimilliard needs to keep those Nicktuku pretty lobotomized and with little ability to think for themselves, they are just too powerful to be allowed initiative. So they could probably be tricked by the average clever coterie.

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        • #34
          Absimiliard isn't concerned with Ur-Shulgi or any other vampire that isn't Nosferatu. He wants his own clan wiped out first and foremost to try to remove the ugly curse from himself.

          The Nicktuku are favored, blood bound childer. It's been shown with other clans that the founders can power up favored childer if they wanted. Aside from the age/experience difference that was why Vasilisa was able to kill Baba Yaga so handily.

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          • #35
            Antediluvians are mostly in torpor. Only need to trick the Nictuku into thinking Ur-Shulgi is a Nosferatu.

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            • #36
              Absimiliard is believed to be awake now, and plotting something big. It's why Vasilisa was called to kill Baba Yaga in 1999 when Baba Yaga had been awake for a decade prior.

              And since the Nicktuku are basically bred to hunt other Nosferatu, I'm fairly certain they would be able to tell Ur-Shulgi was not one of their kind.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Kael03 View Post
                It's been shown with other clans that the founders can power up favored childer if they wanted.
                Can you give any examples of this? Where is this described?

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                • #38
                  It is said of the niktuku in nights of the prophecy and of lambach ruthven in the Tzimisce's clanbook

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                  • #39
                    Well, consider the following.

                    Ur-Shulgi's still gotta sleep during the daytime, and the last time he was active Necromancy didn't even exist as a fully-realized discipline. There's not a whole lot any "conventional" blood sorcerer, even one as mighty as ur-Shulgi, can do about Necromancy applied for maximum effect. Meanwhile, Japheth is (one of the three vampires whose alternate identity is) the Capuchin, giving him unfettered -- pun absolutely intended -- access to any Necromancy available to the Giovanni, Inconnu, and the TMR.

                    Let's see what the little fucker does when he wakes up for the evening, and a spectre's drug him into the middle of the Tempest. Or, even funnier, the Labyrinth.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                      He was embraced in the 12th century, so he's by definition not a Methuselah.


                      Yeah, but Dracula is a bullshit plot NPC. Remember how just feeding on him killed a 4th generation Tzimisce Methuselah? And how he, still a mortal, then defeats and captures two 5th generation vampires?
                      His stats are also kind of lame. Feels they dropped the ball with ol Draculer.


                      It is a time for great deeds!

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                        His stats are also kind of lame. Feels they dropped the ball with ol Draculer.
                        Hang on, Dracula's stats are lame? Are you mad? The motherfucker levels up more in a decade than the PC coterie did in a hundred years! And byTransylvania Chronicles 4 he has basically mastered all common and Tzimisce disciplines and is still better than your entire coterie combined.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                          Hang on, Dracula's stats are lame? Are you mad? The motherfucker levels up more in a decade than the PC coterie did in a hundred years! And byTransylvania Chronicles 4 he has basically mastered all common and Tzimisce disciplines and is still better than your entire coterie combined.
                          Oh I never seen his TC stats, just remembered not being impressed by the Children of the Night Stats which didn't even have Koldunic Sorcery.


                          It is a time for great deeds!

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                          • #43
                            I don't feel like reprinting all of his stats, but Dracula's discipline list immediately after the embrace is:
                            "Auspex 2, Dominate 3, Fortitude 2, Potence 2, Vicissitude 1. He alos possesses rudimentary knowledge of koldunic sorcery."
                            Virtues are "Conviction 4, Instinct 4, Courage 5". He also has every stat in the range from 3 to 5, Willpower 9, and points in practically every skill in the game. On day 1 this newly embraced piece of shit already has more magic than your entire coterie who are now about 200 years old. Plus he has a Legacy of Kain style Soul Reaver magic sword, and an entire castle full of trained and loyal revenant soldiers.

                            Dracula's end-game discipline list is:
                            "Disciplines: Animalism 6, Auspex 2, Celerity 2, Dominate 4, Fortitude 3, Koldunic Sorcery 5, Potence 3, Protean 4, Vicissitude 5
                            Sorcerous Paths: (Koldunic) Way of Earth 5, Way of Spirit 5, Way of Water 5"

                            It may sound like I'm bitter, but that's only because I am. Dracula is the absolute worst part of Transylvania Chronicles because most of book 2 and book 3 are "look at how big Dracula's dick is! Aren't you awed?!!!!"

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Theodrim View Post
                              Well, consider the following.

                              Ur-Shulgi's still gotta sleep during the daytime, and the last time he was active Necromancy didn't even exist as a fully-realized discipline. There's not a whole lot any "conventional" blood sorcerer, even one as mighty as ur-Shulgi, can do about Necromancy applied for maximum effect. Meanwhile, Japheth is (one of the three vampires whose alternate identity is) the Capuchin, giving him unfettered -- pun absolutely intended -- access to any Necromancy available to the Giovanni, Inconnu, and the TMR.

                              Let's see what the little fucker does when he wakes up for the evening, and a spectre's drug him into the middle of the Tempest. Or, even funnier, the Labyrinth.
                              Assuming that Ur-Shulgi is spending all his time in Alamut, wouldn't Japheth - and/or any Wraiths he asks or commands to help him - need to find, travel to, and navigate the Shadowlands equivalent/reflection of Alamut in order to attack Ur-Shulgi as part of Japheth's Necromancy capabilities? What are the practicalities of such an attack? Would Wraiths be able to see Ur-Shulgi across the Shroud on their own, and tell him apart from other Kindred present in Alamut, or would they need help with these things? (I think that Japheth would be able to do so.) What if Alamut has a high Shroud rating?

                              You mention acting against Ur-Shulgi during the day - does he have any relevant innate resistance capabilities or defensive capabilities that work only when he is concious?
                              Last edited by Muad'Dib; 02-25-2018, 08:04 AM.

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                              • #45
                                Ur-Shulgi likely has Spirit Manipulation, or something very close to it. I doubt he'd be completely helpless against Wraiths. It makes sense for him to have a weakness, and this is a good one, but I don't think it would be quite that easy.

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