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Ur-Shulgi vs. Japheth

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  • #46
    Spirit Manipulation doesn't affect Wraiths - they are not umbral spirits.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
      Spirit Manipulation doesn't affect Wraiths - they are not umbral spirits.
      Are there any ways of interacting with and affecting Wraiths within the various kinds and Paths of Blood Magic, other than with Necromancy?
      Last edited by Muad'Dib; 02-26-2018, 05:37 PM.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
        Are there any ways of interacting with and affecting Wraiths within the various kinds and Paths of Blood Magic, other than with Necromancy?
        No. That's kind of why Necromancy is a separate discipline.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
          Are there any ways of interacting with and affecting Wraiths within the various kinds and Paths of Blood Magic, other than with Necromancy?
          NO, Absolutely not..


          Except there is -

          Sielanic Thaumaturgy (Practiced by Telyavelic Tremere) has a path dedicated to Wraiths: Path of the Shadow World
          Libellus Sanguinis 2: Keepers of the Word, p. 64-67

          Akhu (Settite Sorcery)
          Revelations of Duat (Tome of Secrets 62-64)

          Anarch Sorcery
          - Old Skool and Punk includes Voudon Necromancy as a path of Thaumaturgy
          (VTM: Rites of the Blood, p. 53-58)
          Last edited by Illithid; 02-26-2018, 07:50 PM. Reason: Formatting for Clarity

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          • #50
            Guys, guys, Ur-Shulgi wipe the floor with Japhet in anny moment and i gonna tell you why

            first, Ur-Shulgi hasĀ“t no Thaumaturgy, he has Dur-An-Ki and the reason why is because Children of the Night was wrote before Blood of Magic- Secrets of Thaumaturgy and Blood Sacrifice - The Thaumaturgy Companion. Dur-An-Ki means Manster of Heaven and Earth and it's focused in destroy and control demons...

            Second. Speaking of Demosn, Ur-Shulgi was created with the only objetive to destroyand control demos. Ofcourse Japheth is not a demon, but tell me? How a wraith can survive the attack of big bad Demons, Remember Guys, Ur-Shulgi is called de demon boy and Black Shepard for obscure and diabolic reasons not just because sound edgy. I think the best way the comfront the demond child is with a phisical aproach not with magic or supernatural ways.

            sorry for my bad English is not my native lenguaje

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
              No. That's kind of why Necromancy is a separate discipline.
              We are talking about Thaumaturgy 9, we're deep into Plot territory.

              Assamite sorcery has many powers that let you damage "incorporeal entities" and "spirits", as well as seeing them and interacting with them. Daimoinon 3 explicitly affects anything you wish to target, and even does double damage to "spirits".

              We are dealing with arguably the most powerful infernalist in existence, so I don't think basic or even advanced Necromancy is an insta-win here.

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              • #52
                I like this as a thought exercise, but all I can say is "what theme is this story trying to explore?"

                Ur-Shulgi Wins: Corruption and evil are overwhelming forces, and the Black Shepherd is a truly apocalyptic force.

                Japheth Wins: A less "overwhelming cosmic dread" approach. Conventional powers can overwhelm creepy ancient (if less ancient than Japheth) powers with enough will and determination.

                Personal Favourite: Neither of them win. They are both at a state where they really struggle to destroy the other. Remember Week of Nightmares? Think one step down from that. What matters to the PCs? THE COLLATERAL DAMAGE. Powerful undead and infernal spirits are roused. Small natural disasters. Panicked action by powerful supernatural organisations. Outbreaks of insanity and looting and rioting. The two fighters themselves moving past, their attacks a threat to any bystander.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                  We are talking about Thaumaturgy 9, we're deep into Plot territory.

                  Assamite sorcery has many powers that let you damage "incorporeal entities" and "spirits", as well as seeing them and interacting with them. Daimoinon 3 explicitly affects anything you wish to target, and even does double damage to "spirits".

                  We are dealing with arguably the most powerful infernalist in existence, so I don't think basic or even advanced Necromancy is an insta-win here.
                  Your example of "Blood magic that deals with spirits" is Daimoinon 3. Bruh.

                  Also, what would those Assamite sorcery powers be? To my knowledge in V20 the Assamite-exclusive paths are not-Obfuscate, Sword Magic, and NPC-only pool magic. Neither of which really deals with spirits in any way.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                    Your example of "Blood magic that deals with spirits" is Daimoinon 3. Bruh.

                    Also, what would those Assamite sorcery powers be? To my knowledge in V20 the Assamite-exclusive paths are not-Obfuscate, Sword Magic, and NPC-only pool magic. Neither of which really deals with spirits in any way.

                    IIRC Lore of the Clans and V20DA made a few changes to quitus (spelling?) so that each caste has their own variation. I remember that the sorcerer version in one (there differences between the supplements) was more focused on dealing with non-corporeal beings (demons, djinns, spirits, ghosts).





                    English is not my native language, so i apologize for errors in grammar or spelling.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                      Your example of "Blood magic that deals with spirits" is Daimoinon 3. Bruh.

                      Also, what would those Assamite sorcery powers be? To my knowledge in V20 the Assamite-exclusive paths are not-Obfuscate, Sword Magic, and NPC-only pool magic. Neither of which really deals with spirits in any way.
                      Those were two separate points, don't try and be smart. Powerful blood magic can affect ghosts. The Infernalist Discipline can affect ghosts (spirits), marginally, even if you struggle to sense them. Quietus's caste-specific powers literally let you see all incorporeal spirits by rubbing blood on your eyes. We are SO deep into "this is definitely a fact RAW".

                      Blade of Smoke and Shadow is just one example. The rules literally mention the blade striking ghosts, by the way. It's a Level 2 ritual.

                      "Dealing with incorporeal nasties" is a recurring motif in Assamite fluff and crunch. It's okay if you haven't read that widely, but maybe take people at their word unless you know a lot about the topic?

                      Now, take someone with Quietus at Elder levels, and Assamite Sorcery at Elder levels, and try and claim that somehow the ability to manipulate ghosts is an instant win condition?
                      Last edited by 11twiggins; 03-05-2018, 07:53 AM.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Cadmiumcadamium View Post


                        IIRC Lore of the Clans and V20DA made a few changes to quitus (spelling?) so that each caste has their own variation. I remember that the sorcerer version in one (there differences between the supplements) was more focused on dealing with non-corporeal beings (demons, djinns, spirits, ghosts).
                        Quietus.

                        Yeah, Viziers and Sorcerers can now see and harm demons with Quietus variants. They are incredibly useful when they come up, but almost useless otherwise. Worth purchasing with EXP in-game, I'd argue, not as your starting power.

                        For example, a Giovanni has a host of ghosts attacking the coterie. An Assamite slices his palm with his blade and coats his eyes and blade with his vitae, and proceeds to kill (well, for any given value of "kill") every ghost using Celerity actions (they're not really that good at soak, but they do have 10 health levels each if they're at full Corpus, so it could take a few rounds).

                        Alternatively, with Quietus 5 (variant) he can just vomit up a spray of blood that melts spirits.
                        Last edited by 11twiggins; 03-05-2018, 08:03 AM.

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