Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ur-Shulgi vs. Japheth

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Marcus Meridian
    started a topic Ur-Shulgi vs. Japheth

    Ur-Shulgi vs. Japheth

    Hey folks,

    had that discussion with a player at the weekend and it ended in an ugly nerdwar, that got out of hand. Anyway, wanted to hear your opinion on the matter.

    White Wolf deliberately pictures Ur-Shulgi as THE badass of the WoD that apparently destroys any vampire with but a word. My Player swallowed that whole pr agency talk of ur shulgi's and believes that this little fellow could even destroy Antes, etc.
    So i told him about Japheth who is about 8.000 old and whose stats are well documented in the Giovanni Chronicles. I told him that Jaoheth would wipe the Floor with the Ur-Master. Well, we didn't come to any fruitful conclusion.

    So, what do you say? Who would win in a fight between Japheth and Ur-Shulgi?

  • 11twiggins
    replied
    Originally posted by Cadmiumcadamium View Post


    IIRC Lore of the Clans and V20DA made a few changes to quitus (spelling?) so that each caste has their own variation. I remember that the sorcerer version in one (there differences between the supplements) was more focused on dealing with non-corporeal beings (demons, djinns, spirits, ghosts).
    Quietus.

    Yeah, Viziers and Sorcerers can now see and harm demons with Quietus variants. They are incredibly useful when they come up, but almost useless otherwise. Worth purchasing with EXP in-game, I'd argue, not as your starting power.

    For example, a Giovanni has a host of ghosts attacking the coterie. An Assamite slices his palm with his blade and coats his eyes and blade with his vitae, and proceeds to kill (well, for any given value of "kill") every ghost using Celerity actions (they're not really that good at soak, but they do have 10 health levels each if they're at full Corpus, so it could take a few rounds).

    Alternatively, with Quietus 5 (variant) he can just vomit up a spray of blood that melts spirits.
    Last edited by 11twiggins; 03-05-2018, 08:03 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • 11twiggins
    replied
    Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
    Your example of "Blood magic that deals with spirits" is Daimoinon 3. Bruh.

    Also, what would those Assamite sorcery powers be? To my knowledge in V20 the Assamite-exclusive paths are not-Obfuscate, Sword Magic, and NPC-only pool magic. Neither of which really deals with spirits in any way.
    Those were two separate points, don't try and be smart. Powerful blood magic can affect ghosts. The Infernalist Discipline can affect ghosts (spirits), marginally, even if you struggle to sense them. Quietus's caste-specific powers literally let you see all incorporeal spirits by rubbing blood on your eyes. We are SO deep into "this is definitely a fact RAW".

    Blade of Smoke and Shadow is just one example. The rules literally mention the blade striking ghosts, by the way. It's a Level 2 ritual.

    "Dealing with incorporeal nasties" is a recurring motif in Assamite fluff and crunch. It's okay if you haven't read that widely, but maybe take people at their word unless you know a lot about the topic?

    Now, take someone with Quietus at Elder levels, and Assamite Sorcery at Elder levels, and try and claim that somehow the ability to manipulate ghosts is an instant win condition?
    Last edited by 11twiggins; 03-05-2018, 07:53 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cadmiumcadamium
    replied
    Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
    Your example of "Blood magic that deals with spirits" is Daimoinon 3. Bruh.

    Also, what would those Assamite sorcery powers be? To my knowledge in V20 the Assamite-exclusive paths are not-Obfuscate, Sword Magic, and NPC-only pool magic. Neither of which really deals with spirits in any way.

    IIRC Lore of the Clans and V20DA made a few changes to quitus (spelling?) so that each caste has their own variation. I remember that the sorcerer version in one (there differences between the supplements) was more focused on dealing with non-corporeal beings (demons, djinns, spirits, ghosts).

    Leave a comment:


  • Kammerer
    replied
    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

    We are talking about Thaumaturgy 9, we're deep into Plot territory.

    Assamite sorcery has many powers that let you damage "incorporeal entities" and "spirits", as well as seeing them and interacting with them. Daimoinon 3 explicitly affects anything you wish to target, and even does double damage to "spirits".

    We are dealing with arguably the most powerful infernalist in existence, so I don't think basic or even advanced Necromancy is an insta-win here.
    Your example of "Blood magic that deals with spirits" is Daimoinon 3. Bruh.

    Also, what would those Assamite sorcery powers be? To my knowledge in V20 the Assamite-exclusive paths are not-Obfuscate, Sword Magic, and NPC-only pool magic. Neither of which really deals with spirits in any way.

    Leave a comment:


  • 11twiggins
    replied
    I like this as a thought exercise, but all I can say is "what theme is this story trying to explore?"

    Ur-Shulgi Wins: Corruption and evil are overwhelming forces, and the Black Shepherd is a truly apocalyptic force.

    Japheth Wins: A less "overwhelming cosmic dread" approach. Conventional powers can overwhelm creepy ancient (if less ancient than Japheth) powers with enough will and determination.

    Personal Favourite: Neither of them win. They are both at a state where they really struggle to destroy the other. Remember Week of Nightmares? Think one step down from that. What matters to the PCs? THE COLLATERAL DAMAGE. Powerful undead and infernal spirits are roused. Small natural disasters. Panicked action by powerful supernatural organisations. Outbreaks of insanity and looting and rioting. The two fighters themselves moving past, their attacks a threat to any bystander.

    Leave a comment:


  • 11twiggins
    replied
    Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
    No. That's kind of why Necromancy is a separate discipline.
    We are talking about Thaumaturgy 9, we're deep into Plot territory.

    Assamite sorcery has many powers that let you damage "incorporeal entities" and "spirits", as well as seeing them and interacting with them. Daimoinon 3 explicitly affects anything you wish to target, and even does double damage to "spirits".

    We are dealing with arguably the most powerful infernalist in existence, so I don't think basic or even advanced Necromancy is an insta-win here.

    Leave a comment:


  • Yeisson D. Velandia
    replied
    Guys, guys, Ur-Shulgi wipe the floor with Japhet in anny moment and i gonna tell you why

    first, Ur-Shulgi hasĀ“t no Thaumaturgy, he has Dur-An-Ki and the reason why is because Children of the Night was wrote before Blood of Magic- Secrets of Thaumaturgy and Blood Sacrifice - The Thaumaturgy Companion. Dur-An-Ki means Manster of Heaven and Earth and it's focused in destroy and control demons...

    Second. Speaking of Demosn, Ur-Shulgi was created with the only objetive to destroyand control demos. Ofcourse Japheth is not a demon, but tell me? How a wraith can survive the attack of big bad Demons, Remember Guys, Ur-Shulgi is called de demon boy and Black Shepard for obscure and diabolic reasons not just because sound edgy. I think the best way the comfront the demond child is with a phisical aproach not with magic or supernatural ways.

    sorry for my bad English is not my native lenguaje

    Leave a comment:


  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
    Are there any ways of interacting with and affecting Wraiths within the various kinds and Paths of Blood Magic, other than with Necromancy?
    NO, Absolutely not..


    Except there is -

    Sielanic Thaumaturgy (Practiced by Telyavelic Tremere) has a path dedicated to Wraiths: Path of the Shadow World
    Libellus Sanguinis 2: Keepers of the Word, p. 64-67

    Akhu (Settite Sorcery)
    Revelations of Duat (Tome of Secrets 62-64)

    Anarch Sorcery
    - Old Skool and Punk includes Voudon Necromancy as a path of Thaumaturgy
    (VTM: Rites of the Blood, p. 53-58)
    Last edited by Illithid; 02-26-2018, 07:50 PM. Reason: Formatting for Clarity

    Leave a comment:


  • Kammerer
    replied
    Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
    Are there any ways of interacting with and affecting Wraiths within the various kinds and Paths of Blood Magic, other than with Necromancy?
    No. That's kind of why Necromancy is a separate discipline.

    Leave a comment:


  • Muad'Dib
    replied
    Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
    Spirit Manipulation doesn't affect Wraiths - they are not umbral spirits.
    Are there any ways of interacting with and affecting Wraiths within the various kinds and Paths of Blood Magic, other than with Necromancy?
    Last edited by Muad'Dib; 02-26-2018, 05:37 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kammerer
    replied
    Spirit Manipulation doesn't affect Wraiths - they are not umbral spirits.

    Leave a comment:


  • PazuzuAxelf
    replied
    Ur-Shulgi likely has Spirit Manipulation, or something very close to it. I doubt he'd be completely helpless against Wraiths. It makes sense for him to have a weakness, and this is a good one, but I don't think it would be quite that easy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Muad'Dib
    replied
    Originally posted by Theodrim View Post
    Well, consider the following.

    Ur-Shulgi's still gotta sleep during the daytime, and the last time he was active Necromancy didn't even exist as a fully-realized discipline. There's not a whole lot any "conventional" blood sorcerer, even one as mighty as ur-Shulgi, can do about Necromancy applied for maximum effect. Meanwhile, Japheth is (one of the three vampires whose alternate identity is) the Capuchin, giving him unfettered -- pun absolutely intended -- access to any Necromancy available to the Giovanni, Inconnu, and the TMR.

    Let's see what the little fucker does when he wakes up for the evening, and a spectre's drug him into the middle of the Tempest. Or, even funnier, the Labyrinth.
    Assuming that Ur-Shulgi is spending all his time in Alamut, wouldn't Japheth - and/or any Wraiths he asks or commands to help him - need to find, travel to, and navigate the Shadowlands equivalent/reflection of Alamut in order to attack Ur-Shulgi as part of Japheth's Necromancy capabilities? What are the practicalities of such an attack? Would Wraiths be able to see Ur-Shulgi across the Shroud on their own, and tell him apart from other Kindred present in Alamut, or would they need help with these things? (I think that Japheth would be able to do so.) What if Alamut has a high Shroud rating?

    You mention acting against Ur-Shulgi during the day - does he have any relevant innate resistance capabilities or defensive capabilities that work only when he is concious?
    Last edited by Muad'Dib; 02-25-2018, 08:04 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kammerer
    replied
    I don't feel like reprinting all of his stats, but Dracula's discipline list immediately after the embrace is:
    "Auspex 2, Dominate 3, Fortitude 2, Potence 2, Vicissitude 1. He alos possesses rudimentary knowledge of koldunic sorcery."
    Virtues are "Conviction 4, Instinct 4, Courage 5". He also has every stat in the range from 3 to 5, Willpower 9, and points in practically every skill in the game. On day 1 this newly embraced piece of shit already has more magic than your entire coterie who are now about 200 years old. Plus he has a Legacy of Kain style Soul Reaver magic sword, and an entire castle full of trained and loyal revenant soldiers.

    Dracula's end-game discipline list is:
    "Disciplines: Animalism 6, Auspex 2, Celerity 2, Dominate 4, Fortitude 3, Koldunic Sorcery 5, Potence 3, Protean 4, Vicissitude 5
    Sorcerous Paths: (Koldunic) Way of Earth 5, Way of Spirit 5, Way of Water 5"

    It may sound like I'm bitter, but that's only because I am. Dracula is the absolute worst part of Transylvania Chronicles because most of book 2 and book 3 are "look at how big Dracula's dick is! Aren't you awed?!!!!"

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X