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Question concerning Vissicitude 4

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  • Question concerning Vissicitude 4

    Dark Ages 20 p 267 states "Changes wrought by Vicissitude are permanent, with only rare exceptions."

    Does this mean RAW, zulo form is permanent, which could also mean.... once done you have zero social attributes for the rest of the game, since AFAIK no RAW power of Vis can restore Charisma or Manipulation.

    Does this also mean, you could do this for multiple rounds and get massive amounts of physical traits? (How does this interact with the generational trait limit?)

    My current opinion is, I'm missing something buried somewhere in the rules.

    Thanks.

  • #2
    Vic 4 is such a rare exception. Iirc it even says that the form lasts until sunrise, end of scene or something like that. At least most other shape changing powers have that written in the power itself.





    English is not my native language, so i apologize for errors in grammar or spelling.

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    • #3
      I don't believe it's ever been stated clearly but in no game have I run or have I been apart of has zulo form been permanent. Zulo form follows an unwritten rule or idea throughout V:tM (such as with Setites, Samedi, and Gangrel form changing) that it simply alters your form for the duration of that level of the power and then it's done and you are back to your original form.

      The rule as written really should only pertain to flesh crafting and bone crafting.


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      • #4
        Originally posted by uriel View Post
        Dark Ages 20 p 267 states "Changes wrought by Vicissitude are permanent, with only rare exceptions."

        Does this mean RAW, zulo form is permanent, which could also mean.... once done you have zero social attributes for the rest of the game, since AFAIK no RAW power of Vis can restore Charisma or Manipulation.

        Does this also mean, you could do this for multiple rounds and get massive amounts of physical traits? (How does this interact with the generational trait limit?)

        My current opinion is, I'm missing something buried somewhere in the rules.

        Thanks.
        Okay, first off, I just ate half a bottle of Tums, because I know I'm gonna catch some flak for this post, but here goes.

        I've gone back and read the section in question, then re-read, then took a break and read it again. Maybe I am going senile and missed something, but you appear to be correct in your reading of the power's description. Not just Read As Written, or Read As Intended, but, frankly, read as any reasonable person who has never played the game before would read it. (It could be undone, maybe, by performing diablerie, because then the power would have been used by a vampire of weaker blood.)

        But, no one... and I think it's fair to say no one in the WW gaming community would run it that way.

        Confusing, yeah? Sigh.

        Sometimes, since Vampire has been around so long, there are things that are simply assumed. Like that disciplines don't make permanent changes, unless specifically noted. In fairness to new players, though, it really shouldn't be left as an assumption or implication. Sadly, this is not the first time this sort of thing has come up in the game.

        Part of the problem is the early adoption of the idea of the Golden Rule, the idea that STs should adapt the rules and house-rule extensively for their table to make the game more fun for their group, thereby making WW rules functionally (though, not legally) an open-source, collaborative project. Also, part of the culture of the community of WW players is a sort of free-wheeling approach, where whatever makes the better story fluff is encouraged, whether there is crunchy rules support for it or not.

        Let me be clear, these are both good things. They are why the game was so fresh and ground-breaking when it began. Having played table-top rpgs since the early 80's (D&D Basic, red book from 1981, then switched over to Villains&Vigilantes, and Chivalry&Sorcery), I can tell you VtM wasn't just a breath of fresh air in the highly mechanical and crunchy world of gaming... it was a hurricane. Truly revolutionary for the hobby.

        In 1991.

        Today, however, "free-form" and "heavily house-ruled" is true of nearly every game on the market. That was the point of the WW revolution, putting story before mechanics. And the revolution was won. D&D, Gurps, Star Wars, Call of Cthulu, Warhammer, etc. may be thought of as "crunchier", but they all have long lists of optional rules and rule variants. They all have a section espousing the Golden Rule. They, however, have managed to maintain a level of editorial oversight of the mechanics. They have very few "bugs" like the one you bring up. Can anyone really imagine WotC printing a third level spell that raises several attributes, perhaps to super-human levels, and has no duration listed, because they just, you know, "forgot"?

        Free-form and fluff-heavy sound so great when said among members of our own community; that is when we are taking to one another on boards like this. When outsiders... meaning those used to more formally defined games, leaving aside non-table-top playing muggles... hear us say those things it just seems like a pretentious excuse for sloppy and slap-dash writing. It makes it look like the publishers can't be bothered to take the time to put together a "proper" spell description stat box, or "balance" all the powers of the same cost.

        When the books are shown to complete gaming muggles, WoD rules become nearly unusable, as they collapse under the weight of their own sloppiness.

        Through the years,...

        ...and let me repeat, I have been playing table-top rpgs long enough that if my hobby were a person, it would be old enough to vote... as would it's children...

        ... I have developed a tremendous love, some would say obsession with this setting.

        It's a richly detailed world, full of both horror and heroism, cynicism, yes, but passion, too. The World of Darkness is a beautifully crafted piece of fiction and myth. I cherish each sneering Ventrue and laughing Child of Gaia, every Technocrat struggling with self-doubt and Spectre torturing their own rational selves with psychological horrors. It's become nearly a second home for me.

        But, among people who share the broader hobby of gaming I have great difficulty putting together a table to play, in large part because they leaf through the books and find so many of these slap-dash and sloppy rules that they simply can't make heads or tails of it. I try to reassure them, "don't worry, it's not about strict rules. It's about the story, we'll figure it out as we go along."

        After the tenth or twentieth vague rule,it gets hard to defend, though. I mean, really. The publishers had word-count to spend on saying that debates over the nature of Vicissitude can cause arguments at vampire dinner parties, but didn't have the space to just insert a short clause saying, "until sunrise" to limit the duration.

        In the past, when holes have been found in the rules we all have just sort of waved it away with an assurance of "well, it's your table, change it. Anyway, you know what was meant, right?"

        No. The reader doesn't "just know" what the rule meant. And new players, who are the future of this game, really have no idea. We, the most devoted core of the core come here, and to other forums, for help when we hit a brick wall, or can't figure out on our own how to un-break the rules. Newbies, well, just go play something else. And if that keeps happening, the world I have come to love will fade away.

        So, yes, what you think you read about Vicissitude is what you read.

        And, frankly, I am hoping beyond hope that the publishers get their shit together for this next edition, because, somewhere along the journey from 1991 to today, the editorial oversight just started shrugging and saying, "Oh, well, it's good enough. They'll figure it out on the forums. Whatever. We'll have open commentary periods, and then we won't have to edit or develop the game ourselves."

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        • #5
          I just looked through the descriptions in Dark Ages: Vampire, V20 and VtM Rev Ed. None of them actually has a duration for Horrid Form in the powers description. This is mindboggling to me.





          English is not my native language, so i apologize for errors in grammar or spelling.

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          • #6
            Is it fair to necro this thread, mostly because I'm curious as to what the writers/designers intended with this. My assumption is that the preamble was intended mostly for victims, and Zulo form especially is intended to be until end of scene (since its mainly a combat power).

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            • #7
              Originally posted by uriel View Post
              Is it fair to necro this thread, mostly because I'm curious as to what the writers/designers intended with this. My assumption is that the preamble was intended mostly for victims, and Zulo form especially is intended to be until end of scene (since its mainly a combat power).
              What they intended? Who knows; this is VtM after all.

              I would note the line "A wielder of Vicissitude can always reshape her own flesh." though. Personally, I go with a Vissictude user always being able to completely undo anything done of their body with Vicissitude and revert to their "natural" form at any time by taking an action and spending a blood point; with no regard to generation or rank of Vicissitude used on them, or who altered their body. Effectively, anyone with Vicissitude becomes immune to the discipline.

              But that is house rules.

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              • #8
                If your a vampire and someone uses Vicissitude on you the next sunrise undo's it as you will have reverted back to the state you were in when you died upon awakening the next night.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post
                  If your a vampire and someone uses Vicissitude on you the next sunrise undo's it as you will have reverted back to the state you were in when you died upon awakening the next night.
                  That's only if you are the same or lower generation than the vamp who used Vicissitude on you was, and even then you have to heal it as Aggravated wounds.

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                  • #10
                    I'm forgetting which book right now, but somewhere it mentions that some Tzimisce make it a point to stay in the zulo form as much as possible. This implies either a) the zulo naturally has a time limit or b) the zulo can be easily dropped by a Fiend for matters of convenience (these aren't mutually exclusive, either).

                    Since it mentions rare exceptions, you can rule this as one of them. If not, this is hardly permanent, it just requires the expenditure of blood once more to reverse and return the Fiend to normalcy (for a Tzimisce, at least).

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by uriel View Post
                      Is it fair to necro this thread, mostly because I'm curious as to what the writers/designers intended with this. My assumption is that the preamble was intended mostly for victims, and Zulo form especially is intended to be until end of scene (since its mainly a combat power).
                      Rules as written - Permanent is Permanent. It also doesn't say you can't activate it again. So it can stack
                      Changes wrought by Vicissitude are permanent, with only rare exceptions. A Cainite of lower Generation than the Tzimisce can heal alterations in the same manner as they heal aggravated wounds. Furthermore, the re-application of Vicissitude can be used to restore a subject to their former self, though such an endeavor requires a considerable amount of skill and time, and the end result is often imperfect.
                      So, by the rules; it's got to be worked through to undo the change, even to yourself.

                      Now, we probably all agree that's not what intended, it's meant to be a scene length transformative power that doesn't stack.

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