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  • #46
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


    Right, I was talking about Blood Bonds in relation to fellow Cainites, not lowly mortals.

    Think of it this way: The vampire in question is suspected of committing a high crime that would normally warrant a blood hunt. The Prince wishes to investigate more thoroughly before passing judgement. Unfortunately, the accused vampire has bound several kindred around the city, some of which were high ranking members of the Prince's own court. They proceed to tamper with the investigation, hindering the Prince's efforts to uncover the truth. Or, if they decide to just initiate the blood hunt anyways, then the accused now has several powerful kindred who are willing to defend them from the Prince's wrath, thus resulting in a small scale civil war.


    The Blood Bond doesn't create allies, it creates slaves. Slaves who will put your own comfort and security above their own. That's why it's so dangerous for both friend and foe alike. And why any prince with a brain in their skull should have a system in place for keeping track of who is bound to who, instead of leaving it ambiguous.


    As for the Tremere, you have to remember that they are not in the habit of giving away clan secrets to outsiders. Diablerie is strictly forbidden by the Camarilla, and yet the Tremere happily indulge in it for the sake of expanding their own knowledge and power.

    Yeah, but those Court members again, aren't worthy of their station if they let that happen to them. That also makes for a very compelling story too. You either have incomeptant primogens (I'm assuming) or a very clever nemesis that was able to bind them. Though, I find it far more likely that most vampires in that position of power likely have a level three blood bond already as a 'saftey'. Likely to someone they have spent time ensuring can't and won't betray them or use it against them. In current campaign I'm running the Prince is actually a methuselah and is blood bound to his sheriff an ancillae they are a mated pair of trusted lovers that have been together for the past 100 years.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by acwrig2 View Post


      Yeah, but those Court members again, aren't worthy of their station if they let that happen to them. That also makes for a very compelling story too. You either have incomeptant primogens (I'm assuming) or a very clever nemesis that was able to bind them. Though, I find it far more likely that most vampires in that position of power likely have a level three blood bond already as a 'saftey'. Likely to someone they have spent time ensuring can't and won't betray them or use it against them. In current campaign I'm running the Prince is actually a methuselah and is blood bound to his sheriff an ancillae they are a mated pair of trusted lovers that have been together for the past 100 years.


      And is that the kind of mentality that you wish to inspire among the Camarilla? If your rivals couldn't defend themselves, then they were unworthy of surviving in the first place?

      That's how the Sabbat operates. Survival of the fittest, with each vampire seizing their power through ruthless conquest.


      The Camarilla is supposed to be more dignified than that. And if they let the neonates get it into their heads that their leaders are weak, foolish or generally unqualified to maintain their stations, then they could be looking at a third or fourth Anarch revolt on their hands. The Prince needs to make it very clear that the Blood Bond is not a toy to be thrown around lightly. It is one of their most powerful means of controlling others. Also, the people who earn the rank of Primogen or any other court title are usually elected into office by their clans or sects. They've proven their worth to the Camarilla and have been entrusted with the responsibility of leadership. Then you have this random, unproven kindred who muscles into the area and starts enslaving them for their own mysterious purposes? Sorry, but if I were the Prince, I'd declare a blood hunt immediately upon anyone caught pulling that shit. The devil you know is better than the devil you don't.



      And the Neonate doesn't have to go straight for the elders in order to seize control. They can start off small by targeting their subordinates, weakening their security until it's time to move onto their real target. From what I understand, a Blood Bond only needs to be renewed once a year, as opposed to Ghouls who need it every month. So subjugating a rival's entire power structure isn't as difficult as it sounds. You just need patience to play the long game.


      I also don't remember if I read this in a Masquerade or Requiem book, but there was something about Princes who abuse the power of the Blood Bond instigating an open rebellion from their subjects who were outraged by their tyrannical oppression.
      Last edited by Nyrufa; 03-19-2018, 06:55 PM.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post



        And is that the kind of mentality that you wish to inspire among the Camarilla? If your rivals couldn't defend themselves, then they were unworthy of surviving in the first place?

        That's how the Sabbat operates. Survival of the fittest, with each vampire seizing their power through ruthless conquest.


        The Camarilla is supposed to be more dignified than that. And if they let the neonates get it into their heads that their leaders are weak, foolish or generally unqualified to maintain their stations, then they could be looking at a third or fourth Anarch revolt on their hands. The Prince needs to make it very clear that the Blood Bond is not a toy to be thrown around lightly. It is one of their most powerful means of controlling others. Also, the people who earn the rank of Primogen or any other court title are usually elected into office by their clans or sects. They've proven their worth to the Camarilla and have been entrusted with the responsibility of leadership. Then you have this random, unproven kindred who muscles into the area and starts enslaving them for their own mysterious purposes? Sorry, but if I were the Prince, I'd declare a blood hunt immediately upon anyone caught pulling that shit. The devil you know is better than the devil you don't.



        And the Neonate doesn't have to go straight for the elders in order to seize control. They can start off small by targeting their subordinates, weakening their security until it's time to move onto their real target. From what I understand, a Blood Bond only needs to be renewed once a year, as opposed to Ghouls who need it every month. So subjugating a rival's entire power structure isn't as difficult as it sounds. You just need patience to play the long game.


        I also don't remember if I read this in a Masquerade or Requiem book, but there was something about Princes who abuse the power of the Blood Bond instigating an open rebellion from their subjects who were outraged by their tyrannical oppression.

        The Camarilla is all about seizing power and opportunity too. It's just all politics and subterfuge instead of raw power. An ambitious vamp needs to be able to be smart and cunning if they want to topple that pyramid. Like I said you either have a bunch of incomeptent primogens that ended up bonded, or you have a clever nemesis that was able to pull it off without anyone the wiser.
        Last edited by acwrig2; 03-19-2018, 09:39 PM.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
          Think of it this way: The vampire in question is suspected of committing a high crime that would normally warrant a blood hunt. The Prince wishes to investigate more thoroughly before passing judgement. Unfortunately, the accused vampire has bound several kindred around the city, some of which were high ranking members of the Prince's own court. They proceed to tamper with the investigation, hindering the Prince's efforts to uncover the truth. Or, if they decide to just initiate the blood hunt anyways, then the accused now has several powerful kindred who are willing to defend them from the Prince's wrath, thus resulting in a small scale civil war.
          Sometimes that's what it takes. If they managed to get themselves bound to a criminal and help him (either by tampering with evidence or defending the criminal), they deserve to be purged. Or, at best, punished in some manner. Their acts would ultimately make them traitors to the Camarilla, while unfortunate.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by DamienLS View Post

            I'm bound to my sire at level three and have been feeding him in his sleep to bond him to me cause I went full yandere.
            If you're blood bound to your sire, isn't is strange to machiavelly go for trying to bond him ? OK, it seemed you found a way to go by this "yandere" stuff ; I'm not sure as a ST I would allow that, but that's your (and your ST)'s call. Anyhow, I would at least request you to spend willpower points & make some rolls in order to be able to carry on this kind of treasonous stuff.

            Another, perhaps non-treasonous way to go, would be to seduce him, and thus persuade him to willingly accept a reciprocated blood-bond. Admitting that your character is a caregiver, and already bound, you could admit that he would naïvely seduce him, not even as a control plot...

            All that talk about Humanity, and even the possibility for you to even think of such a seemingly-treasonous act (at least in game mechanics), is really dependent on how you do this blood bond stuff.

            As a side-note, I would also assume that a Prince and that the Primogen would definitely frown on blood-binding everyone - even humans (Elders would assert their rule in human society, and severely punish/restrict ancillaes trying to take control of the local newspaper). Although blood-bond are certainly a philosophical issue between Camarilla & Sabbat, having too many blood-bonds mixed with bad feelings would be a sure motive to join the Sabbat (although I'm a ST, if I was a blood-bounded character and my master treated me like a slave, I would certainly run for the Sabbat...).

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Tazmaniacs View Post

              If you're blood bound to your sire, isn't is strange to machiavelly go for trying to bond him ? OK, it seemed you found a way to go by this "yandere" stuff ; I'm not sure as a ST I would allow that, but that's your (and your ST)'s call. Anyhow, I would at least request you to spend willpower points & make some rolls in order to be able to carry on this kind of treasonous stuff.

              Another, perhaps non-treasonous way to go, would be to seduce him, and thus persuade him to willingly accept a reciprocated blood-bond. Admitting that your character is a caregiver, and already bound, you could admit that he would naïvely seduce him, not even as a control plot...

              All that talk about Humanity, and even the possibility for you to even think of such a seemingly-treasonous act (at least in game mechanics), is really dependent on how you do this blood bond stuff.

              As a side-note, I would also assume that a Prince and that the Primogen would definitely frown on blood-binding everyone - even humans (Elders would assert their rule in human society, and severely punish/restrict ancillaes trying to take control of the local newspaper). Although blood-bond are certainly a philosophical issue between Camarilla & Sabbat, having too many blood-bonds mixed with bad feelings would be a sure motive to join the Sabbat (although I'm a ST, if I was a blood-bounded character and my master treated me like a slave, I would certainly run for the Sabbat...).

              Another thing to keep in mind is that it's pretty much the status quo for a fledgling and possibly a neonate to be fully blood bonded to their sire. This is because it makes it easier for the sire to control you and teach you about the vampire world and while you are a fledgling anything you do to screw up is also on their head. I sort of see the breaking away from that initial blood bond as a sort of right of passage for proving your worth. A stepping stone for going from fledgling to neonate. But to each their own. Another thing to keep in mind is that the blood bond isn't just 'love'. It can also be hate and obsession. Sure they are the most important person in the world to you and that could be a form of love, or it could be an obsession where you hate their very being. I recall reading that it's not always 'love' in V20.

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              • #52
                It is not love, just similar to it in that the BB makes people place the regnant's needs and safety above those Bound. One can hate the person they are BB to, (many do when they attempt to break it over time), but they are still BB, and still feel the call do do things for the regnant, (and must still try to resist).


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                • #53
                  Originally posted by acwrig2 View Post


                  The Camarilla is all about seizing power and opportunity too. It's just all politics and subterfuge instead of raw power. An ambitious vamp needs to be able to be smart and cunning if they want to topple that pyramid. Like I said you either have a bunch of incomeptent primogens that ended up bonded, or you have a clever nemesis that was able to pull it off without anyone the wiser.


                  To clarify, I'm not saying the blood bond should be outlawed, I'm saying it should be heavily regulated or monitored among the Camarilla. Like you said, it's mostly politics and subterfuge instead of raw power. But the average population of vampires is astronomically lower compared to the average population of humans. There could scarcely be 30 vampires in a domain with 2 million humans. So if somebody goes around and imposes mass Blood Bonds on their fellow kindred, then they could overthrow the Prince and Primogen quite easily. And it's not just that one domain you have to worry about. Remember that when it comes to the Camarilla, only those at the very top (the Inner Circle) have any real sort of power, the rest are just cogs in the machine. The vampires in question could be acting as proxy agents for other Camarilla members in other domains, and they will most certainly not take kindly to somebody they don't even know subverting their pawns after they spent decades or even centuries trying to place them into office.


                  As for the idea of breaking a blood bond being seen as a right of passage, there are only 4 ways I know of to break it.

                  1 - Your domitor chooses to release you.

                  2 - Your domitor (or you) are destroyed.

                  3 - Refrain from drinking your domitor's blood for an entire year

                  4 - Participate in a Sabbat Vaulderie


                  Two of those options seem highly unlikely, another seems impossible for you to accomplish and the last one is a death sentence according to Camarilla law.

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                  • #54
                    Nyrufa

                    5 - discovering and using the sacred flower which allowed for the Vaulderie rite's creation. You'd need Koldunic Sorcery to harvest this power.

                    Again, relatively niche.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                      Nyrufa

                      5 - discovering and using the sacred flower which allowed for the Vaulderie rite's creation. You'd need Koldunic Sorcery to harvest this power.

                      Again, relatively niche.

                      Outside of Old Clan Tzimisce, how many kindred even know about Koldunic Sorcery, much less practice it?
                      Last edited by Nyrufa; 03-21-2018, 06:38 AM.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                        Outside of Old Clan Tzimisce, how many kindred even know about Koldunic Sorcery, much less practice it?
                        Exactly.

                        With that said, it's well known within the TBH and it's part of Sabbat life. Many Tzimisce and Pack Priests practise it, even if they only master the very basics.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post



                          To clarify, I'm not saying the blood bond should be outlawed, I'm saying it should be heavily regulated or monitored among the Camarilla. Like you said, it's mostly politics and subterfuge instead of raw power. But the average population of vampires is astronomically lower compared to the average population of humans. There could scarcely be 30 vampires in a domain with 2 million humans. So if somebody goes around and imposes mass Blood Bonds on their fellow kindred, then they could overthrow the Prince and Primogen quite easily. And it's not just that one domain you have to worry about. Remember that when it comes to the Camarilla, only those at the very top (the Inner Circle) have any real sort of power, the rest are just cogs in the machine. The vampires in question could be acting as proxy agents for other Camarilla members in other domains, and they will most certainly not take kindly to somebody they don't even know subverting their pawns after they spent decades or even centuries trying to place them into office.


                          As for the idea of breaking a blood bond being seen as a right of passage, there are only 4 ways I know of to break it.

                          1 - Your domitor chooses to release you.

                          2 - Your domitor (or you) are destroyed.

                          3 - Refrain from drinking your domitor's blood for an entire year

                          4 - Participate in a Sabbat Vaulderie


                          Two of those options seem highly unlikely, another seems impossible for you to accomplish and the last one is a death sentence according to Camarilla law.

                          I think many vampires even in the camarilla cultivate blood bonds on purpose. It's one of the ways that helps them feel human. It even suggests as much in the book. It's how they make themselves actually care about anyone. They form families, power bases, lovers, little coteries where they are blood bonded to each other. The Camarilla enforces the traditions and those are the laws they care about. None of which are about monitoring, controlling or regulating blood bonds. Now, I imagine a lot of vampires are quite secretive about who they are bonded to in some cases, while others might be quite open about it. As for breaking the bond being a right of passage, it's a combination of the first and third to which I'm referring. At some point a domitor is likely to release their fledgling from fledgling status, they have proven themself worthy of being a neonate or ancillae. And thus they go through the process of breaking away. It's sort of like a coming of age all over again. Teenagers rebelling or moving out and away from their parents.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by acwrig2 View Post


                            I think many vampires even in the camarilla cultivate blood bonds on purpose. It's one of the ways that helps them feel human. It even suggests as much in the book. It's how they make themselves actually care about anyone. They form families, power bases, lovers, little coteries where they are blood bonded to each other. The Camarilla enforces the traditions and those are the laws they care about. None of which are about monitoring, controlling or regulating blood bonds. Now, I imagine a lot of vampires are quite secretive about who they are bonded to in some cases, while others might be quite open about it. As for breaking the bond being a right of passage, it's a combination of the first and third to which I'm referring. At some point a domitor is likely to release their fledgling from fledgling status, they have proven themself worthy of being a neonate or ancillae. And thus they go through the process of breaking away. It's sort of like a coming of age all over again. Teenagers rebelling or moving out and away from their parents.


                            Except that is not at all how vampires operate. Vampires are selfish, egotistical monsters. They care about themselves first, and everybody else second. That is the entire premise of the personal horror that vampire revolves around, monsters who primarily care about their own gratification, yet are forced to work together in the interest of self preservation. If you have a slave, or better yet an army of slaves who will die for you, then chances are you are not going to give them up. And don't try to tell me your humanity would compel you otherwise, because you are literally forcing these people to love you.

                            And like I said, those who are already in power are probably backed by higher powers manipulating them either from the shadows or quite openly.

                            "Alright, It took me about 160 years, but I've got everybody right where I want them to be. Oh, what's that, some new guy flies in from out of nowhere and starts mind controlling my contacts and resources? No, fuck that, I'm calling in the hit squad!"


                            I'll admit that when it comes to sire and childer, you're right. Blood Bonding them does seem like a pretty common way to keep them under control, especially since the sire is held responsible during the course of their tutelage. But allowing them to bond with others with whom they have no business doing so? That shit draws attention real quick. Especially when you consider the Nosferatu have spies everywhere and selling their secrets is how the clan hasn't been kicked out of society entirely.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post



                              Except that is not at all how vampires operate. Vampires are selfish, egotistical monsters. They care about themselves first, and everybody else second. That is the entire premise of the personal horror that vampire revolves around, monsters who primarily care about their own gratification, yet are forced to work together in the interest of self preservation. If you have a slave, or better yet an army of slaves who will die for you, then chances are you are not going to give them up. And don't try to tell me your humanity would compel you otherwise, because you are literally forcing these people to love you.
                              That's how vampires with low humanity operate. Not all vampires. Likewise, there's something to be said for earned loyalty and people that can think and operate on their own without needing to rely on the blood bond. A wise domitor would cultivate that sort of devotion in his childer and then release them once they've proven themselves and he trusts them. They in turn now may feel even more loyal and devoted to the domitor and without the need of the control of the bond. If such is the case where every vampire was stuck bonded until their domitor was destroyed the game would force you to have a bond to your sire upon character creation. It doesn't.
                              Last edited by acwrig2; 03-21-2018, 07:51 PM.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by acwrig2 View Post

                                That's how vampires with low humanity operate. Not all vampires. Likewise, there's something to be said for earned loyalty and people that can think and operate on their own without needing to rely on the blood bond. A wise domitor would cultivate that sort of devotion in his childer and then release them once they've proven themselves and he trusts them. They in turn now may feel even more loyal and devoted to the domitor and without the need of the control of the bond. If such is the case where every vampire was stuck bonded until their domitor was destroyed the game would force you to have a bond to your sire upon character creation. It doesn't.


                                Wrong again, the loyalty imposed by the Blood Bond is artificial. As soon as the Blood Bond is broken, any positive feelings or attachments that were caused by the bond are also broken. If you forced the Blood Bond upon them against their will, then it is far more likely that the victim will slit your throat the very second they break free of your control.

                                Also, how exactly can you strengthen the loyalty of somebody who's Blood Bonded to you? They'll already agree to do anything you tell them to. So not a whole lot of room for additional training.


                                This is not a vampire romance novel. This is a gothic horror game. You are playing as a literal monster, who does literally monstrous things in the interest of self preservation and greed. Having faith in others is not something the vampire can afford to do, given how their society works.

                                And yes, while high level humanity vampires can act differently, the game also makes a point that they are doomed to a downward spiral. Simply by being vampires, maintaining a high level of humanity is impossible, unless you're actively trying to obtain Golconda.
                                Last edited by Nyrufa; 03-21-2018, 09:11 PM.

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