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  • Bruno Muniz da Silva
    started a topic Doubt about Diablerie

    Doubt about Diablerie

    Would a Cainite have soul in her body or would it be an essence of blood in an organism?

  • acwrig2
    replied
    Yeah, the Heavenly Host were actually the douchebags in Demon. It's Lucifer and the rebels that wanted to actually help humans as the angels all cultivated and helped them grow. They created them. However, the rebellion was a peacful protest until Cain killed Abel. Then the angels were like "oh shit, we can murder too!" and things got bloody.

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  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by Tazmaniacs View Post

    Don't know about Demon, you're right. However, with Vampire, Werewolf, Mage & Wraith, it is quite clear that there is quite a margin for any particular belief (and the Shining One's stuff & totalitarian-Paradise-Far Shores in Wraith certainly don't cater to a traditional Christian perspective - although yes, christianism doesn't necessarily needs a Heaven/Hell - especially the last one, which is a Medieval invention...).

    When I wrote "agnostic", I don't mean that it is agnostic about the existence of supernatural beings! I mean that it is agnostic about the "why" and the exact nature of those beings (again, perhaps it doesn't apply at all to Demon).


    Actually, Demon kind of sheds some light into the matter of souls and stuff. I haven't read the book, though I'm curious about picking it up. But from what I understand, Demons were punished for explaining God's plan to mortals, so God sent Michael down to twist each of their respective knowledges into a curse, because he's an ass hole.

    One of these curses was changing the way death functioned. Before the rebellion, death was just a minor inconvenience, and mortals could eventually find their way back to the world of the living once their body regenerated. Michael stripped mortals of the knowledge of how to do this, so anybody who dies remained trapped in the Underworld and their bodies decay into dust.


    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    If I eat an apple none of the material from the apple simply disappears. Some is converted into energy for my body... well, the chemical bonds... yada yada yada... Some of it is physically passed into my body, like water and nutrients. Some of it is lost to the inefficiency of eating, such as being wiped on my napkin, or the core being thrown in the trash. Much of it, however, is, ahem, excreted later.

    Overall, the apple isn't gone exactly, but no one would make a pie with it. The materials are still in existence; it's just no longer an apple.

    It's possible the reason vampires who have been diablerized by someone who was later destroyed don't have their "souls" released for use in Necromancy is that the "soul" is in some way digested and used up in the process of diablerie, much like the apple.

    That's because an apple is physical matter. Souls, as far as we know about the setting, are a metaphysical force.
    Last edited by Nyrufa; 03-20-2018, 01:25 PM.

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  • Tazmaniacs
    replied
    Originally posted by acwrig2 View Post

    Agnostic? I'd suggest you read Demon: The Fallen.
    Don't know about Demon, you're right. However, with Vampire, Werewolf, Mage & Wraith, it is quite clear that there is quite a margin for any particular belief (and the Shining One's stuff & totalitarian-Paradise-Far Shores in Wraith certainly don't cater to a traditional Christian perspective - although yes, christianism doesn't necessarily needs a Heaven/Hell - especially the last one, which is a Medieval invention...).

    When I wrote "agnostic", I don't mean that it is agnostic about the existence of supernatural beings! I mean that it is agnostic about the "why" and the exact nature of those beings (again, perhaps it doesn't apply at all to Demon).

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  • acwrig2
    replied
    Originally posted by Tazmaniacs View Post

    The easy answer is: Vampire (and Wraith, and all WW) is an agnostic game: if you want to believe in souls (or/and Heaven, Hell, and whatever), go for it. If you don't, go for it. Even the existence of demons is not a sure thing (perhaps, after all, they're only made of the stuff of dreams/nightmares...). The only quite objective & sure thing that exist (I think), in WoD, is Oblivion (and its variant/brother the Wyrm) - and, against that, human hopes, love, and joy... Would those make a soul ?

    Just a last question for you: what exactly would "essence of blood" be for you ?
    Agnostic? I'd suggest you read Demon: The Fallen. God actually does exist in the setting as do Angels/Demons as the Fallen host of heaven. Demons are a sure thing in WoD the term Demon just refers to several different entities. However ACTUAL demons are fallen angels that were stranded in the abyss.

    Last edited by acwrig2; 03-19-2018, 05:36 PM.

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  • Nosimplehiway
    replied
    If I eat an apple none of the material from the apple simply disappears. Some is converted into energy for my body... well, the chemical bonds... yada yada yada... Some of it is physically passed into my body, like water and nutrients. Some of it is lost to the inefficiency of eating, such as being wiped on my napkin, or the core being thrown in the trash. Much of it, however, is, ahem, excreted later.

    Overall, the apple isn't gone exactly, but no one would make a pie with it. The materials are still in existence; it's just no longer an apple.

    It's possible the reason vampires who have been diablerized by someone who was later destroyed don't have their "souls" released for use in Necromancy is that the "soul" is in some way digested and used up in the process of diablerie, much like the apple.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tazmaniacs
    replied
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    [*]Which leaves us with: absorbed into the diablerist. (This implies, of course, that the soul is first transformed into a form which can be absorbed, so #2, then this.) This, in canon, seems like the most likely. It would make the soul unavailable for Necromancy, since it is inside a "living" being. It explains some of the echoes that some diablerists report. It may even explain the black veins in the aura, as the digested soul is slowly expelled.
    This is certainly the interpretation for the Father’s Freedom Ritual (Rites of Blood, p.101). Then, again, just next page, the book goes on saying "If vampires have souls, the liches of the Tal’Mahe’Ra have surely perverted theirs into something aberrant."

    You may find such (most probably deliberate) inconsistencies all over.

    I agree with Beckett that astral projection doesn't necessarily means having a soul ; it does implies that you can detach consciousness from your body (and as Nosimplehiway did note, consciousness is not identical to the concept of a soul ; almost all modern philosophers believe human (and, maybe, some animals) have consciousness, while only religious-slanted philosophers believe in an "eternal soul" (being eternal is, I think, an universal characteristic of a soul).

    One might note that when V books talk about vampires perhaps not having souls, it is usually in a context of morality. English has two words to distinguish this, without even having to speak about souls: conscience (which is necessarily moral) and consciousness (which only means being conscious of oneself, and is neither "good" nor "bad"). In that sense, vampires of course have consciousness (or they would be as dumb as chairs), but do they have conscience ? Those on Humanity do have one, but what about those in Path of Enlightenment where the conscience is replaced by conviction ?

    This, of course, still leaves open the question of souls... (note that you don't even need to believe in souls to believe in Wraith : you could assume that wraith are composed of pure consciousness/conscience...)

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  • Beckett
    replied
    I was referring to "the real reason Elders outlaw it".

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  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by Beckett View Post

    There is more to it than that, though. There is a measurable change that happens to the individual following a Diablerie as they become more monstrous, (drop Path ratings). It is also notably addictive, and introduces a level of chaos no one wants. Many also do have religious, ethical, or philosophical convictions as well. Even for barely human monsters, this crosses a line, even if it is one of the very few ones that are nearly universal lines in the sand.

    The other one is that it is known that portions of the victims personality, (possibly soul) are absorbed into the Diablerist, and it is unclear just how much influence this could allow. If some Fledgling who had been loyal to you Diablerizes a powerful rival, who can be sure that old ally/pawn is still loyal now, rather than secretly planning to destroy you, especially with inside information. Or, might it bypasse the Blood Bond/Dominate sort of like a sleeper agent? Who knows?


    While that is a legitimate threat, most Diablerists are not initially aware of it, or they believe themselves strong enough to overcome the threat. All they're thinking about at the time is "instant power boost" and it's not until after the deed is done that they realize the consequences for their actions. Look at the guys who tried to Diablerize the Antedeluvians. I don't think they were in the right state of mind at the time of committing the deed. "Hey, this vampire is over 4,000 years my senior and survived an apocalyptic flood... I think I can force him into submission!"
    Last edited by Nyrufa; 03-17-2018, 06:37 AM.

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  • Beckett
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    I thought that the religious dogma surrounding Diablerie was that having your soul consumed actually denies you passage to the afterlife, and destroys your soul in the process. That's (one reason) why it's considered taboo, because "only god has the right to pass judgement on them."


    Of course, the real reason for its outlaw is because the Elders don't want the neonates to jump start their power. But explaining things from a spiritualist stand point may be easier to swallow than a bunch of old farts telling you to stay in line.
    There is more to it than that, though. There is a measurable change that happens to the individual following a Diablerie as they become more monstrous, (drop Path ratings). It is also notably addictive, and introduces a level of chaos no one wants. Many also do have religious, ethical, or philosophical convictions as well. Even for barely human monsters, this crosses a line, even if it is one of the very few ones that are nearly universal lines in the sand.

    The other one is that it is known that portions of the victims personality, (possibly soul) are absorbed into the Diablerist, and it is unclear just how much influence this could allow. If some Fledgling who had been loyal to you Diablerizes a powerful rival, who can be sure that old ally/pawn is still loyal now, rather than secretly planning to destroy you, especially with inside information. Or, might it bypasse the Blood Bond/Dominate sort of like a sleeper agent? Who knows?
    Last edited by Beckett; 03-17-2018, 05:20 AM.

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  • Beckett
    replied
    @ Nosimplehiway

    Wouldn't be the case then though, that once the Diablerist is destroyed that all of the souls would be released, and could then possibly become Wraiths that could be summoned?

    Another issue is that not everyone, not even the majority of those that die become Wraiths, so it is also possible that there is something else about Diablerie that prevents it for the victims, (too much of the death energies that allow it are consumed, for instance).

    I don't believe Psychic Projection involves the soul. Obeah 9 acts similarly, but specifies it is the soul, and has some key differences such as no silver cord. It is debatable, but I read it as specifying a difference.

    1.) I'm not sure I agree with anything here. The conservation of mass and energy doesn't apply, or doesn't have to apply to the soul, by nature of it being the soul. And stuff appearing and disappearing really is not problematic.

    2.) Being that the soul, by nature, is already kind of unrecognizable, I was not really sure what you meant here besides no one really knows what happens to souls after they move on, (including Wraiths).

    3.) I would not call it a free pass. Most souls do not become Wraiths to begin with, but we do know of three victims of Diablerie, (out of game), that indeed did come back, survive it as Wraiths, or otherwise continued to be.

    4.) I agree, to a point, that this seems to be the most likely, but not on it's own. Again, if the Diablerist is destroyed, shouldn't the soul then be free to be summoned? Why can Cainites only drink the souls of other Cainites, and why only get black veins from Cainites, (which seems to be tied in directly to the potency of blood rather than the soul). We also know factually it is not actually the consumption of the soul that lowers Generation by at least two accounts.

    5.) Huh? I don't recall it being insinuated that Diablerie sends souls to the Antediluvians. Rather the idea is that the Antediluvians are so old that they might have grown even beyond the Methuselahs Thirst, and/or so hungry they require mass feeding, (maybe not Diablerie specifically) to continue to exist.

    I just mean to say there is evidence for and against each, so it is hard to say.

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  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    snip

    I thought that the religious dogma surrounding Diablerie was that having your soul consumed actually denies you passage to the afterlife, and destroys your soul in the process. That's (one reason) why it's considered taboo, because "only god has the right to pass judgement on them."


    Of course, the real reason for its outlaw is because the Elders don't want the neonates to jump start their power. But explaining things from a spiritualist stand point may be easier to swallow than a bunch of old farts telling you to stay in line.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nosimplehiway
    replied
    Auspex 5 implies that there is a consciousness which vampires possess, which can exist independently of the vampire's body. Now, whether this meets your definition of the term "soul" or not is hard to say. It does, however, mean the WoD is not purely materialistic. Compared to real world philosophy and meta-physics, that is a real game-changer. In a Humean sense, it changes "the soul" from a term which cannot be meaningfully discussed, to an object of outward sentiment. If you define what emerges from the use of Auspex 5 as the soul, you can perform direct observation of its properties.

    Also, when a vampire has been diablerized, Necromancy is incapable of summoning the vampire's wraith, which would otherwise be possible.

    This implies that vampires do, in some sense, have a soul, and when they are diablerized it is destroyed, transformed into an unrecognizable form, transported to some other place, or absorbed into the diablerist.
    1. If it were fully destroyed, it causes problems with conservation of mass and energy. Even if "the soul" is made of some heretofore unknown material, it seems likely that stuff would still obey basic laws of the universe, which state: "Nothing just goes poof and disappears." Trust me on this, if you let stuff just appear and disappear, ex nihilo, the logic of your game will fall apart.
    2. Transforming the soul into an unrecognizable form... like the way liquid water can boil off to make water vapor... is about as close to "gone" as I can imagine a soul in the WoD being. When the hardware fails, the software is lost. So, that remains an option. Even if it is a narrative dead end, without much use in the story, it seems the most likely explanation.
    3. Transporting to some other place seems possible, like the Far Shores from Wraith. This strikes me as a bit hand-wavey, though. Why do diablerized vampire souls get a free pass to some other plane inaccessible to Necromancy? Where does the energy come from to move them there? Why has no diablerized vampire ever managed to return? Really, it just raises more questions than it answers, plus it introduces a story element which no pc is likely to ever actually know. (If, however, your chronicle features canonical Kuei-Jin, this option becomes likelier, since there is precedent for easy inter-planar travel for souls.)
    4. Which leaves us with: absorbed into the diablerist. (This implies, of course, that the soul is first transformed into a form which can be absorbed, so #2, then this.) This, in canon, seems like the most likely. It would make the soul unavailable for Necromancy, since it is inside a "living" being. It explains some of the echoes that some diablerists report. It may even explain the black veins in the aura, as the digested soul is slowly expelled.
    For my money, I'd bet on #4. But, as always, it's your game, pick your own adventure.

    Oh, and then there's big metaplot #5: the soul is either transported to the original vampire who created the line, such as an antedeluvian, or transported to the antedeluvian of the diablerist... both for purposes of consumption. But, that's more of a narrative element than about the properties of a vampire's soul.
    Last edited by Nosimplehiway; 03-16-2018, 12:06 PM.

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  • Beckett
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    I personally define the soul as being the very essence of a person's existence, and is directly tied to their consciousness. The body is nothing more than a physical shell with which to house that person's essence, and by removing that soul from that shell, the body ceases to be that person. It's just an empty husk, or even a puppet, depending on how the soul was extracted.



    However, many people on these forums have told me that's not how souls work in this game. Apparently, your 'soul' is the force that motivates you to action. It fuels your personality, but it is not the actual source of that personality. That comes from something else, which I have yet to be clarified on. A person can survive having their soul removed, but their willpower gradually diminishes, until they have no personal motivation. It's even more tricky when you consider that you can actually replace your soul with a different one and have seemingly little impact on your already established personality.


    The fact that vampires aren't a bunch of shambling corpses would indicate that they have at least some manner of soul within them, however tainted it may be by the state of undeath.
    It is hard to say. Different powers involving the soul treat it differently, but I have always viewed the state that comes with the removal of a soul to be a form of illness the body and mind are suffering from as they begin to die from the lack of a core component. The true self that survives death of the physical. It can not normally be destroyed, but can be seperated, and wven held apart from the physical.

    Originally posted by Obeah
    While a soul is being held by the Salubri, its body is an empty husk, comatose or in torpor, with no motivating force within it.
    Originally posted by Necromancy
    Successes indicate the number of hours during which the original soul is forced out of its housing. The body itself remains autonomically alive but catatonic.

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  • Kalendeer
    replied
    I would actually say yes, the soul remains, because there's a thaumaturgy ritual to "liberate" the soul from a diablerist. Once the soul is liberated the cainite involved loses the benefits of diablerie.

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