Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Blood Familiars - Pillars Or Spheres?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    I have several hacks in my signature that play around with Mage's Spheres, one of which works on the premise of making some or all of the Disparates operate according to Foundation and Pillars instead of Arete and Spheres. So I have some experience in this area. Some things to consider:

    1. Foundation-and-Pillars was originally devised while Mage was in its Revised edition, and some of its mechanics reflect that. For instance, the amount of Paradox/Scourge generated is considerably higher than what M20 does.

    2. Foundation-and-Pillars requires you to build the dice pool or of two traits, both capped at 5, instead of using a single trait that's capped at 10. This tends to give you slightly larger dice pool starting out, but the sizes of the respective pools get closer together the further you progress.

    3. Foundation-and-Pillars is tightly bounds to what M20 calls Practice: that is, how you work magick is determined by your choice of Foundation. With Arete-and-Spheres, Practice is a separate choice.

    That third point in particular has ramifications for a Blood Familiar. A vampire tapping into an Arete-and-Spheres mage's magick should be at least as bound by the Mage's Focus (in particular, Practice and Instruments) as the mage is. First, he must understand the mage's Focus: this requires a suitable Knowledge that is different for each Practice (I think it's called Metaphysics in M20; but I don't have my book handy). Then, he must use the appropriate Instruments in the appropriate way as dictated by said Practice. This likely requires additional Abilities, listed under the Practice in question. Unlike mages, the vampire should not have the option of discarding instruments. If there are not any appropriate Instruments or an appropriate way to use them to achieve a given Effect, that Effect is off limits even if it's technically allowed by the mage's Spheres.


    Comment


    • #17
      There were references to equivalent Spheres in the original draft, but they were excised in development. Due to various policies in force I am unable to provide that information, but I can tell you that a conversion would not violate the spirit of the rules, though one which did not require specific knowledge of vampirism as a mystical condition, but which is simply improvised, is not encouraged.

      The use of Spheres as a common framework may have prehistoric foundations, but in Mage they were ultimately adopted during the Renaissance as a specific historical phenomenon the Itarajana were not exposed to, because they're an isolated bunch of weirdos.


      Writer, Game Designer, Pro since 99.

      Thoughts at mobunited.com

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
        First, he must understand the mage's Focus: this requires a suitable Knowledge that is different for each Practice (I think it's called Metaphysics in M20; but I don't have my book handy).
        It's called Esoterica, a measure of the character's familiarity with esoteric subjects as they are put into practice. Unlike Occult, which is more broad knowledge about things that exist, and which may or may not be true. To paraphrase the book, Occult will tell you who Aleister Crowley was, while Esoterica will tell you what Aleister Crowley did.

        While regular Vampire rules might allow a blood sorcerer to get away with just Occult, if they were intent on venturing into True Magick, learning Esoterica (or other Knowledges, depending on the style) seems appropriate.


        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
          But its actually rules from a Dark Age Mage Book...
          And they mention Lupines and spirits, as well as the occasional name drop of Tribes, Gaia, and the fact that Lupines Utter WYRM a lot before killing Kindred. Those would have to be ignored if you want to simplify Lupines I guess.
          In our Vampire games, the tribes, auspices and NPCs that are recognisable from W:TA. But since the game works from the perspective of Vampire, the systems mesh with Vampire rules.
          The Rules for Magic may have come from a mage game(DA:Mage, with Pillars) but for our purposes, it is still a Vampire book; so any issues from cross over (should) have been thought out before printing.


          Originally posted by AzraelFirestorm View Post
          I understand your point of view, and it's more than valid for a game that isn't including heavy crossover. However, hard crossover between Mage and Vampire using the concept of Blood Familiars is exactly what I'm asking about.
          Then It's a Vampire Game AND a Mage game.
          For Mages, I recommend using the appropriate books.
          For the Itarajani Mages, I think Pillars work better because of being isolated when the spheres were... Formed(?) but maybe spending too much time outside of Enoch and with the new traditions with spheres could start to rewrite their powers too.
          Last edited by Illithid; 03-25-2018, 09:16 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Illithid View Post
            Then It's a Vampire Game AND a Mage game.
            For Mages, I recommend using the appropriate books.
            For the Itarajani Mages, I think Pillars work better because of being isolated when the spheres were... Formed(?) but maybe spending too much time outside of Enoch and with the new traditions with spheres could start to rewrite their powers too.
            "Rewriting" may not be the best word here, because it depends on how Sphere use has been adopted. It may very well be that "Spheres" exist because of mages of different groups talking to each other, or being exposed to different worldviews as a result of increasing cultural exchanges. The Traditions have adopted the Spheres because, working together for centuries, a certain degree of intellectual and philosophical cross-pollination is bound to happen.

            Even the various Crafts have to live within the modern world, where people have to go out of their way to avoid being exposed to cultural ideas outside of their native worldview. It takes a particularly isolated person to not be familiar with modern technology, and modern education and mass media bring up other philosophical ideas, even if a given person who would become a mage doesn't put as much stock in where the ideas originate from. Even the rigors of the Ascension War and dealing with other magical groups can spur on innovation among relatively insular groups, if for no other reason than because a random mage needs to develop a Paradigmatic means of dealing with another mage's weird, foreign sorcery.

            Every mage thinks of their own magick in terms of their Paradigm, Practice, and Instruments. In essence, every mage IS using a Foundation/Pillar set-up. It's just that when you have to deal with ideas and magicks outside your wheelhouse, you add on to or refine your own understanding of your Focus. Until such time as your powers CAN, from an outside perspective, be neatly (or not-so-neatly) categorized by this Hermetic "Sphere" business.

            The Itarajani are one of the rare groups in the World of Darkness who very much HAVE been in ideological isolation, for centuries if not millennia. Most of them have been hanging around in Enoch, deep in the Shadowlands; indeed, most were BORN there. They remain insulated by the general cross-pollination that changed and expanded other mystic/techo praxis. Itarajani can't use much resembling "Time magick" because they've not been exposed to such ideas, or been made to develop them. So their Pillars leave no option for it.


            Comment

            Working...
            X