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  • Religion and Blood Sorcery

    Something I’m wondering about and looking at, are the limits of blood Sorcery and their associations. Dur-An-Ki and it’s association with Islam, Ogham and it’s associations with Celtic Paganism, Sadhana and it’s association with Hinduism, Dark Thaumaturgy and it’s association with the Demonic, etc, etc.

    I find blood Sorcery and it’s associations with Religion rather interesting. I’m also wondering what different forms of blood Sorcery different religions would create. For one example, what would Blood Sorcery founded on Shinto look like? And could you make a direct opposite of Dark Thaum? A form of Blood Sorcery centered on the holy exclusive to those with True Faith?

  • #2
    Originally posted by PunkManiak View Post
    And could you make a direct opposite of Dark Thaum? A form of Blood Sorcery centered on the holy exclusive to those with True Faith?

    The problem with that is how could you possibly learn it in the first place?

    Dark Thaumaturgy users learn their craft by consorting with Demons.

    I highly doubt Angels are willing to sit down and give trademark secrets to the Damned just because they ask for it.

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    • #3
      Dur-an-ki is associated with Mesopotamian, and seemingly Proto-Mesopotamian, mythology not Islam. Though there is confusion since the Assamite's have Sorcerers use Islam and Hinduism in their Sorcery, but that was made before they invented Dur-An-Ki in Revised.

      But I believe Sihr is the Islamic Blood Sorcery.

      But a Faith Based Holy magic was something I considered, it would naturally be the rarest though. Like we know their are Sorcerers Among the Children of Osiris and the Anubi Gangrel... but they wouldn't use Akhu because that Blood Sorcery fuels its power by blaspheming against Osiris and stealing the Dead from his domain and defiling them.


      It is a time for great deeds!

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      • #4
        Eldagusto The idea I’d had would actually require at least 3 ranks in True Faith to even be able to learn it.

        I basically was thinking it would be a discipline that could be learned through meditation and prayer.

        It would be simultaneously both a blessing and a curse, because it would mark the user as blatantly having true faith, or putting evermore stringent moral standards on the practioner, eventually making the user completely unable to feed off of an unwilling donor.

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        • #5
          I was never super keen on multiple levels of True Faith, because having it at all seemed rare, and having it beyond level one all seemed just as rare, and it seems wonky when you have rank 2 as often as rank 5.


          It is a time for great deeds!

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          • #6
            Eldagusto Yeah, that’s kind of my point, True Faith, in and of itself is rare, so this would arguably be even more so. To the point that you could expect a max of 10-50 Kindred across the globe at any given moment having it.

            Howeve I’m also working on ideas for two Elder PCs one a Prince, and the other a Josian Alastor, who specializes in hunting down the infernal. To put it bluntly True Faith, would kind of be integral to their characters.

            The warrior, would at most have 1 point in True Faith, whereas his beaux would be a scholarly diplomatic sort, with 3. (Keep in mind both gents are over 600 years old, and DEVOUTLY Catholic.)

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            • #7
              True Faith and Religious Thaumaturgy are fundimentally at odds. True Faith is internal, one can just as readily have True Faith in "The power of Love" as anything else. You can't make "The power of Love" blood magic. Blood Magic is external, it draws upon either the countless bits of faith that other people have invested in the symbolism(or Mythic threads as Mages might call them) or the innate truth of the divine in that belief system(If we aren't going with Mage explanations)

              A blood magic that calls upon various christian symbols and superstions would not be outside the range of existence but has generally been subsumed by Sabbat Ritae in the canon.

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              • #8
                I actually think a unique blood magic based on Christian belief would work best to divinely supplement those WITHOUT True Faith.

                Think about it. True Faith means a faith in anything. Even those without any sort of god, such as Buddhists, can have it. Now, notice that Dark Thaumaturgy, which requires a sincere dedication to infernal powers, doesn't require True Faith, despite the fact that it could be argued that one could have faith in these entities (Mark of Caine Merit in Rites of the Blood, which literally gives True Faith by worship of Caine, proves that even faith in something antithetical to God can give Faith).

                If you had a True Faith inspired Thaumaturgy, make it angelic. Hell, fallen angels teach Dark Thaumaturgy, why not let regular angels (or, more controversially, low Torment benevolent Fallen such as Reconcilers or certain Faustians) teach a more radiant version?

                Much like how Dark Thaumaturgy allows characters to interact with dark forces without necessarily having investments, any holy Thaumaturgy should allow characters that maybe don't have True Faith to wield some limited divine aid. There'd be a ton of story potential for something like why angels are blessing Kindred. If all else fails, use some Josian (or True Black Hand) reverse engineering stuff (it's mentioned) and present "purified" variants of traditional Dark Thaumaturgy.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by PunkManiak View Post
                  Something I’m wondering about and looking at, are the limits of blood Sorcery and their associations. Dur-An-Ki and it’s association with Islam, Ogham and it’s associations with Celtic Paganism, Sadhana and it’s association with Hinduism, Dark Thaumaturgy and it’s association with the Demonic, etc, etc.

                  I find blood Sorcery and it’s associations with Religion rather interesting. I’m also wondering what different forms of blood Sorcery different religions would create. For one example, what would Blood Sorcery founded on Shinto look like? And could you make a direct opposite of Dark Thaum? A form of Blood Sorcery centered on the holy exclusive to those with True Faith?
                  DAV20 Tome of Secrets introduces the concept of Biblical Necromancy, which has a number of different rituals that are based around different faiths. The base concept is that the Rossellini's believe that their Necromancy is not blasphemous but instead calling on miracles. While the rituals cover a number of religions it mentions that an ST can shift the denomination as appropriate.

                  As for a Christian version of Thaumaturgy you don't necessarily have to come up with a new system. Much like how Dur-An-Ki, Assamite Sorcery, Sadhana, and Old Skool Sorcery all use Thaumaturgy's rules so too could a Christian version. The actual casting of the magic would probably involve prayers and invocations of angels and saints. Here are some examples for names of Thaumaturgical Paths that would fit well in such a structure.
                  • Green Path - Eden's Whispers
                  • Hands of Destruction - Azrael's Touch
                  • Lure of Flames - Michael's Wrath
                  • Neptune's Might - Noah's Favor
                  • Path of Conjuring - Genesis' Memory
                  As for Shinto, given its animist concept of everything having a kami (spirit), could probably look alot like Koldunic Sorcery (the Kraina version). You could even use the Kraina from the books and just change the names to fit locations in Japan.
                  • Transylvanian Kraina - Sanreizan-do "Way of the Three Holy Mountains"
                  • Black Sea Kraina - Nihon-kai-do "Way of the Sea of Japan"
                  • Genius Loci - Kami-do "Way of the Kami"
                  • Bialoweza Kraina - Aokigahara-do "Way of the Aokigahara Forest"

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                  • #10
                    Mortal hunters empowered with faith (such as the Gladius Dei) have specific Christian faith based thaum like paths that could just be ported directly over


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