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What if Caine can't sire without Aid, and isn't Omnipotent?

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  • What if Caine can't sire without Aid, and isn't Omnipotent?

    So what if as the Tal'maherah book mentions Caine can't make 2nd Generation by himself and he needs Lilith to do so? I like this because it adds nuance and cures the infinite godvampire syndrome. And that Caine wasn't omnipotent just very strong. The Analects of the 3rd Garden mention Caine did after all need blood bonding to win Zillah so he may not have been the uberpresence master maybe only Dominate. And Tzilah in that source was said to master Obtenebration to escape confinement, and thus Caine wasn't master of the Abyss, but Lilith was. Caine also seemed to know some blood sorcery from Lilith as he kept a Calendar through a yearly blood ritual where a mark of his blood kept date on his black tower by itself.

    So with this as a premise what do you think about Caine in the present night? Were did he hide? Did he explore the Umbra? What do you think his history was with the Wan Xian/Kuei? If he wasn't omnipotent what would you think the Power Difference was between Caine and the 3rd gen? Do you think he grew weaker or stronger over the years? Do you think the 3rd Gen then surpassed Caine after all these years?

    I'm also going with he wasn't cursed by an omnipotent god, just a mighty spirit. So maybe Caine has achieved mastery of Fortitude/Potence/Celerity but not Temporis. He maybe had high Protean but not a mastery. Maybe mastery of Animalism as the Beast is derived from his Beast, but maybe just a high level. Obfuscate is mastered since he has hidden from his children. And maybe Auspex Mastered since he had a few prophetic dreams and could see far away, but maybe just a high level.

    But this was also back like 12 thousand or 14 thousand years since he vanished. Maybe he did keep up with the others, but I imagine he wasn't as a smart as a lot of the 3rd gen. I imagine he also had maybe some unique disciplines not known to modern night like a proclaimation/Singing discipline. And high levels of Sorcery but maybe not mastered. And a spattering of the new disciplines like Obtenebration and Chimeristry.

    Thoughts?


    It is a time for great deeds!

  • #2
    A weak Caine would be an interesting way to use him in a chronicle. Maybe as he moves closer to redemption and forgiveness his curse gets weaker, and in modern nights he's equivalent to a 13th or 14th gen vampire.

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    • #3
      I love this becuase in my own version of the metaplot Caine never was an invincible Blood God in fact my version of Caine is either dead or sealed.

      He´s/was powerful but not above the usual mathusaleah level that we can find in the city books.Becuase Caine is just an ********** with enough luck to get years of tutelage from lilith and the awakening ritual that she did to unlock the power of the disciplines not some short of genius like the antidiluvians who were the creme of the creme betwen the mortals of the time.And also getting the sevenfold curse/blessing is the main reason of Caine surviving.

      Caine ruled over the First City but it was becuase the antediluvians there were mere neonates , ancillae and he had a thousand years of nights in XP but eventually the Antidiluvians learned , canibalized the weak and in the end they became mighty predators that even Caine feared being this the reason for him abandoning his domain.Caine the first assasin and detroned prince.Nowadays the Antes can defeat Caine with mid-low level effort but they fear the sevenfold curse as one Gehena escenario suggest by making the battle of lilith agaist him a play to weaken him and make some Broken Pawn land the final blow.

      About his origins I run a masquiem game so it is a mix from requiem and masquerade lore.Caine was cursed by Father Exarch of Prime by sealing a powerful spirit (A level 10 strix) in him all with the objetive to lure Lilith his rebel creation , he partially succed.Another thing that i change is to not make all the antidiluvians descend from Caine , some found their own way to be cursed/become blood gods without any help.This way you can make your players doubt about the Caine existence instead of Noddism is the absolute True becuase some elders may proclaim their founder were 1st gen or archived vampirism without Cain or the Second Gen and the Camarilla will make propaganda of alternate origins for the clans becuase disbelief in the Dark Father weakens the Sabbat.

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      • #4
        In my games Caine went into torpor shortly after the 2nd city was destroyed and hasn't really done anything since then. He's a mythological figure, but definitely a non-active one.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Ventruth View Post
          Maybe as he moves closer to redemption and forgiveness his curse gets weaker, and in modern nights he's equivalent to a 13th or 14th gen vampire.
          I've considered running him very much like this. The idea behind it could be that the Thinning of the Blood is sympathetically taking Caine further from his original curse(s) along with it, perhaps even signifying some kind of redemption for Caine and the Kindred. He'd essentially be a high powered Thin Blood (15th Generation or 16th if you're using the BJD), or even a Dhampir/Revenant of sorts if I'm stretching the limits of the idea. The high powered part would likely be a raised Discipline cap (and maybe only Common Disciplines or even just the three physical ones), say 5-6, and/or being genuinely (or almost) invulnerable to violence.

          I'm very tempted to crib some ideas directly from a fun film called He Never Died, which portrays Cain(e) as a mostly human, however immortal, antisocial guy with a taste for human flesh and blood. I recommend it both for a fresh look at the First Murderer, and just because it's a good movie.





          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_Never_Died
          Last edited by AzraelFirestorm; 04-10-2018, 02:28 PM.


          "Everybody is a book of blood; wherever we're opened, we're red." - Clive Barker, The Books of Blood

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          • #6
            Well, according to the lore, wasn't it Lilith who taught Caine how to wield Disciplines to begin with? That implies the original version of the curse was simply a blood drinking corpse who had to hide from the sun!

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            • #7
              Whoah that movie looks interesting! I'mma watch it now.

              It makes me wonder if some of the 4th gen are older then some of the 3rd Gen how much of the difference between them would their be? And if the 2nd gen survived would they just be glorified 3rd gen?


              It is a time for great deeds!

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                Well, according to the lore, wasn't it Lilith who taught Caine how to wield Disciplines to begin with? That implies the original version of the curse was simply a blood drinking corpse who had to hide from the sun!
                Exactly! And you could even go that Caine never really died, he was just more and more cursed.


                It is a time for great deeds!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                  Exactly! And you could even go that Caine never really died, he was just more and more cursed.


                  Makes sense when you think about it.


                  God: Caine, what you did was an atrocious sin!

                  Caine:

                  God: So to punish you, I'm going to give you immortality and a mighty array of super powers!

                  Caine:

                  God: You may feed only upon the blood of others, and the touch of sunlight shall burn like the flames of hell!

                  Caine: But, I still get super powers, right?

                  God: Oooooh, yes! You get sooooo many super powers!

                  Caine: Sweet!

                  God: In fact, a few of them can cancel out the whole 'sun' thing and - what the fuck am I doing!?
                  Last edited by Nyrufa; 04-09-2018, 11:14 PM.

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                  • #10
                    God: Also if anyone punches you in the face, I'm going to punch them in the face 7 friggin times! So you will not be distracted from all your immortality by people trying to hold you accountable!


                    It is a time for great deeds!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                      Well, according to the lore, wasn't it Lilith who taught Caine how to wield Disciplines to begin with? That implies the original version of the curse was simply a blood drinking corpse who had to hide from the sun!
                      Before meeting Lilith Caine was just immortal that didn't want to be by people out of penance. Lilith didn't teach him disciplines so much as awake the ability to use them inside him. It was during this awakening period that his immortality turned into the common vampirism of vulnerability to sunlight and gore and the beast within wanting blood when he told 3 archangels to fuck off with their forgiveness.

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                      • #12
                        A weakening of Caine's curse might also explain why Caine has allegedly been awake and traveling the world all this time without too many incidents, yet the Antedeluvians are supposed to be these ravenous ancients who will devour us all come Gehenna time.

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                        • #13
                          Maybe he doesn't have a beast's heart because he passed his rage onto all decendants?

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                          • #14
                            Hey there you go! Be pretty fitting if Caine is the reason why Caine is impotent, shouldn't of tried to find a way to spread his curse! Maybe he even knew about it by the time of the First City and that is why he left, they were embracing too many 3rd Gen, and the 3rd gen was embracing secret 4th gen! So the lowest gen may represent Caine's current power.


                            It is a time for great deeds!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                              Hey there you go! Be pretty fitting if Caine is the reason why Caine is impotent, shouldn't of tried to find a way to spread his curse! Maybe he even knew about it by the time of the First City and that is why he left, they were embracing too many 3rd Gen, and the 3rd gen was embracing secret 4th gen! So the lowest gen may represent Caine's current power.


                              So basically just like that druidic bloodline from the Dark Ages. They each carried a piece of their god's power within them, so every time they embraced a new member, its power would gradually diminish.

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