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What if Caine can't sire without Aid, and isn't Omnipotent?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    Hey there you go! Be pretty fitting if Caine is the reason why Caine is impotent, shouldn't of tried to find a way to spread his curse! Maybe he even knew about it by the time of the First City and that is why he left, they were embracing too many 3rd Gen, and the 3rd gen was embracing secret 4th gen! So the lowest gen may represent Caine's current power.
    If you were to use this, the extension could be that it is in fact Caine that is finding a way for the thinbloods to embrace and create weaker childer so that he can become human again, or be free of much of the curse.
    Currently Thin enough bloods can even have children.... Almost a normal life again for the Kin-slayer

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    • #17
      Problem I have with all this is I like the Idea that all Caine has to do to break the curse is ask for forgiveness but he is too much of an arrogant doucher he won't. Also he knows if he is weak and their are lots of Vampires he would be much more of a target with less of an ability to hide.


      It is a time for great deeds!

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
        Problem I have with all this is I like the Idea that all Caine has to do to break the curse is ask for forgiveness but he is too much of an arrogant doucher he won't. Also he knows if he is weak and their are lots of Vampires he would be much more of a target with less of an ability to hide.


        I was under the impression that the whole reason he was a target is so they could diablerize his godlike powers. You take away those powers and they have no reason to go after him. The only exception might be the Antedeluvians who want revenge for him cursing them thousands of years ago.


        Hey, now there's an idea!

        What would happen if somebody actually did manage to successfully diablerize Caine? Would they have the power to remove the curse of the blood thinning over the generations?
        Last edited by Nyrufa; 04-13-2018, 09:29 AM.

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        • #19
          The problem with diablerizing Caine is he's still affected by the other curse from God that prevents others from killing him due to a seven fold retribution.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Kael03 View Post
            The problem with diablerizing Caine is he's still affected by the other curse from God that prevents others from killing him due to a seven fold retribution.


            So, what? They're diablerized 7 times over?

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            • #21
              There would be no point in trying to diablerized him to become the first gen vampire. The second they sink their teeth in him they die. Caine will still be alive and probably pissed at both God and the geniuses that thought killing him would be a good idea. How well do you think that would go over?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Kael03 View Post
                There would be no point in trying to diablerized him to become the first gen vampire. The second they sink their teeth in him they die. Caine will still be alive and probably pissed at both God and the geniuses that thought killing him would be a good idea. How well do you think that would go over?


                If we're going by the OP's assumption that Caine has weakened over the millennia (to the point of being around 12 or 13 gen), Caine probably wouldn't be able to do much of anything.

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                • #23
                  Well, let's apply context here: the sevenfold curse was expressly to keep Caine's relatives from seeking revenge for kinslaying. Now... why would such a curse still be active? Who counts as a relative? Descendants of Caine wouldn't--they're HIS child(er) after all, why should they get slapped for taking a piece out of daddy?

                  And Adam's children: none of them spend any time thinking about Caine and what a cool thing it would be to get revenge on him, right? If they hit Caine with a car crossing a road it would be an accident, entirely unmotivated by his cosmic guilt. Therefore, a Just and Merciful God would shrug and say "whatever dude, you get to feel real guilty for 'killing' John Doe."

                  So by more modern nights (including the Dark Ages), Caine spends his time trying really damn hard to blend in and avoid attracting attention, as his cloak of invulnerability has long worn off and the name is pure liability.

                  Other things:
                  1. Caine learned a LOT from Lilith. Which we can assume that Lilith wanted him to learn, and do, and that would benefit primarily Lilith the Mother of Monsters. Caine was quickly unenthusiastic with the results of his curse, the proliferation of vampirism, and the corrosive effects of discipline powers. Probably, the 2nd and 3rd gen are in fact, pound for pound, more powerful than Caine. That and the fact they're a-holes of the first order induced him to leave their company and ever since he's been either sleeping or doing a fine job of blending in.

                  2. Corollary to this we can assume that Caine is not happy with Lilith, not happy with his immediate descendants, and less than pleased with the wide variety of horribly broken people the rest of the extended vampiric populace represent. He'd be delighted if they killed each other off, and his "play" in the Jyhad would be to strangle peace in the crib anytime it could find it. All, of course, while dodging those who idealistically seek to find him and stick him up on a pedestal.

                  3. If Lilith could teach Caine how to sire. Could she not do so for others? Multiple convergent species theory is entirely reasonable. Caine would have even LESS reason to like her progeny if they are not, after all, his as well.

                  ---

                  In one DA game I was in, the uber-NPC were "Abaddon" and "Lilith"--yes, that Lilith--who had been at it for millennia. Anytime she popped up, he would step in to dismantle her plans as best he could and maintain a kind of balance of power/terror that a) kept humans more or less free, and b) prevented Gehenna of one sort or another. Abaddon was a terrifyingly powerful blood sorcerer. Which wasn't hard to achieve--the terror--as the PCs were neonate pretenders.

                  Later on it became apparent that whatever Abaddon was, he was very low-gen, as one PC inadvertently got embraced by him. And was promptly instructed under no circumstances was the embracee to sire. Later on the ST confided that the character was intended to be Caine in the role of mastermind organizer behind warring organizations in the shadows.

                  All of these are applicable ideas, hinging on the removal of plot retribution armor and dialing down the implications of great age. Why be linear?

                  Or, you could, yaknow, make him a cabbie in NY or LA if you like.

                  --Khanwulf


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
                    Therefore, a Just and Merciful God would shrug and say "whatever dude, you get to feel real guilty for 'killing' John Doe."




                    The general consensus of God in the World of Darkness is that he's a huge prick.

                    Remember, it wasn't the Demons who cursed mortals and kicked them out of paradise. It was God and his Angels.

                    The only thing the Demons did was try to teach us why the universe worked.
                    Last edited by Nyrufa; 04-13-2018, 03:36 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

                      The general consensus of God in the World of Darkness is that he's a huge prick.
                      Consistency in sources: Caine story, description of the divine. Regardless, secondary point to the theory of degrading/irrelevant curse.

                      Note as well that answering the question of "where did all the other people come from to have family with?" might make a difference in this surmise as well. Easiest explanation is siblings. More complicated gets into Lilith-like territory, or whatever.

                      --Khanwulf

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
                        Therefore, a Just and Merciful God would shrug and say "whatever dude, you get to feel real guilty for 'killing' John Doe."
                        The Curse was not laid by a "Just and Merciful" God, That was the Angry and Vengeful God


                        Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
                        3. If Lilith could teach Caine how to sire. Could she not do so for others? Multiple convergent species theory is entirely reasonable. Caine would have even LESS reason to like her progeny if they are not, after all, his as well.
                        There are a few creation stories of clans that don't trace lineage to Caine, There's the Seties but also the Impundulu I think
                        Last edited by Illithid; 04-16-2018, 12:01 AM. Reason: Found spelling of Obscure African Lightning Bird/ Bloodline

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                        • #27
                          What if some random dude actually did kill Cain ? And then got the Seventhfolded punishment, what do you think it would be ?

                          Some kind of new devious Vampiric curse but 7 times worst ?

                          Would it be the actual, start of the end, an event of biblical proportion ?

                          God going; Alright no ****ing ark this time Mother****ers, I am just wiping you all out, and sends Angels to murder everyone, or turns the person who actually killed Cain into somekind of hellish demon who feed on both vampire and human and any other creatures.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Arcaneumkiller View Post
                            turns the person who actually killed Cain into some kind of hellish demon who feed on both vampire and human and any other creatures.

                            Then somebody kills the demon and gets a curse that's seven times worse than that one!

                            And the cycle continues, until God finally realizes "Maybe turning people into predatory monsters isn't the wisest form of punishment for murderers?"

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                              God: Also if anyone punches you in the face, I'm going to punch them in the face 7 friggin times! So you will not be distracted from all your immortality by people trying to hold you accountable!


                              Caine: Anything else you want to 'curse' me with?

                              God: Oh, yeah, you no longer have any stats!

                              Caine: What does that mean?

                              God: You'll find out when you're older!

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                              • #30
                                Lucifer gives humanity the gift of knowledge.
                                Lucifer is afraid that because of human mortality, human knowledge will deteriorate over the generations.
                                Lucifer lacks the imagination to invent written language at this time.
                                Lucifer finds a human murderer, one he thinks God will not pity.
                                Lucifer has the Angel of Death gift this Murderer with some of his blood, inoculating the Murderer against death, to create a special class of human, immune to death, who can carry knowledge across countless generations.
                                Lucifer is not sure that this plan will work, and installs a failsafe: if the Murderer is destroyed, all of his immortal offspring will fall with him.
                                But contrary to what Lucifer imagined, God takes pity on the Murderer.
                                God will not have this experiment, and declares that anyone who further harms the Murderer will have their indiscretion returned upon them sevenfold.
                                Since no angel, holy or fallen, can willingly destroy itself, no angel can destroy Cain.
                                Since no earthly being can challenge Cain in the modern nights, Cain remains.
                                Because -- and this has to be Cain's favorite sentence in any language -- God didn't know..
                                God didn't know about the failsafe, before He made that proclamation.
                                Cain drives a cab. He is cursed to wander, after all. Sometimes, when he's got one of his descendants as a passenger, he puts on a Lugosi accent, just to mess with them.
                                And then he concentrates for a second, and siphons just a little blood off of every vampire on the planet, just enough to sustain him.
                                Every night, after a long days' work, Cain goes to a sports bar, and strikes up a conversation with someone about sports.
                                And every morning, Cain greets the sun, smiles, and says "What's the point, if none of us can see this?"
                                And all it took was discipline.

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