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  • AzraelFirestorm
    replied
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    Teylen

    The main problem I have with Touchstones (and there are several) arises with vampires... elder or not... who, as part of their character concept, are more introverted.

    It's common, especially in American culture, to believe that the only way to be a healthy, sane, whole person is to engage with others. This rests on the assumption that everyone feels under-stimulated, bored, or lonely when alone. For roughly a third of people, this is not the case. For introverts, quiet time alone isn't what tires them. It's what rejuvenates them! Writing a new song, browsing through random wikipedia pages, or tinkering in a home workshop is, for them, as restorative as dropping by a friend's party, watching the big game at a sports bar, or attending a family dinner is for extroverts.

    The emotional distress that some extroverts feel when they find themselves alone, abandoned, or ignored carries real emotional pain, yes. But, introverts feel the same degree of emotional turmoil when forced into a social situation in which they are overwhelmed by ten different discussions, loud music, and a roiling crowd. So, when real tragedy strikes and when real moral quandaries arise, extroverts seek out the counsel, support, and comfort of others, while introverts need time to retreat, ponder their situation, and invest time in charting the way forward. If either personality type tries to use the wrong tools for them it will only make matters worse.

    The Touchstone system is (perhaps not so) subtly built on the assumption that the only valid way to function... indeed the only way to be sane, moral, and humane... is to be connected to others.

    Now, few people are pure extroverts or pure introverts, but that's sort of my point. If we are going to have the Touchstones system at all, I want the freedom to build a character whose Touchstones include people, yes, but also places where they can retreat to ponder existence (like the local library in their hometown?), items they value as a reminder of their values (like a well-worn family bible?), and activities that give them a sense of achievement (like creating art or music?).

    The current system creates a situation where you can lose Humanity because your best friend leaves town to take a great job in the exotic locale they've always dreamed about, but not lose Humanity when your house burns down, with years of memories and keepsakes turned to ash. I just want the system to be broad enough to tell the stories of many, many different kinds of people.

    Not just the people who need people.
    Seconded. Half of my favorite concepts aren't even functional if keeping genuine human ties was a prerequisite for maintaining Humanity. My Humanity 7 OC Tzimisce Scholar and Humanity 8(!) Gangrel Punk Survivalist characters (I miss that game) would be basically unplayable, just because they don't have any mortals on their contacts list.

    Touchstones were a major reason I avoided playing Requiem Second Edition. It'd be pretty lame to have to avoid my very favorite tabletop game, VtM, because it did the same thing. If V5 keeps on in this direction, I might have to pull back from the entire property, at least until it's been fixed. Until then, there's previous editions and 20th Anniversary stuff. That'll have to be enough.

    Leave a comment:


  • Teylen
    replied
    Nosimplehiway
    I don't see the touchstone system as a system to model a personality, morality or a society or a statement abot in which situations or conditions a characters thrives. The latter is something rather described with nature and demenear or vice and virtue. I see it rather as a connection to humanity for a creature that due to its state of being isn't human. I don't see how a place or an abstract concept would achieve that.

    In regards of the presentation, in the playtest as well as within requiem you don't have to be around your touchstones.
    The alpha playtest does proposition that two characters are actually cut-off their touchstone for quite a while.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nosimplehiway
    replied
    Teylen

    The main problem I have with Touchstones (and there are several) arises with vampires... elder or not... who, as part of their character concept, are more introverted.

    It's common, especially in American culture, to believe that the only way to be a healthy, sane, whole person is to engage with others. This rests on the assumption that everyone feels under-stimulated, bored, or lonely when alone. For roughly a third of people, this is not the case. For introverts, quiet time alone isn't what tires them. It's what rejuvenates them! Writing a new song, browsing through random wikipedia pages, or tinkering in a home workshop is, for them, as restorative as dropping by a friend's party, watching the big game at a sports bar, or attending a family dinner is for extroverts.

    The emotional distress that some extroverts feel when they find themselves alone, abandoned, or ignored carries real emotional pain, yes. But, introverts feel the same degree of emotional turmoil when forced into a social situation in which they are overwhelmed by ten different discussions, loud music, and a roiling crowd. So, when real tragedy strikes and when real moral quandaries arise, extroverts seek out the counsel, support, and comfort of others, while introverts need time to retreat, ponder their situation, and invest time in charting the way forward. If either personality type tries to use the wrong tools for them it will only make matters worse.

    The Touchstone system is (perhaps not so) subtly built on the assumption that the only valid way to function... indeed the only way to be sane, moral, and humane... is to be connected to others.

    Now, few people are pure extroverts or pure introverts, but that's sort of my point. If we are going to have the Touchstones system at all, I want the freedom to build a character whose Touchstones include people, yes, but also places where they can retreat to ponder existence (like the local library in their hometown?), items they value as a reminder of their values (like a well-worn family bible?), and activities that give them a sense of achievement (like creating art or music?).

    The current system creates a situation where you can lose Humanity because your best friend leaves town to take a great job in the exotic locale they've always dreamed about, but not lose Humanity when your house burns down, with years of memories and keepsakes turned to ash. I just want the system to be broad enough to tell the stories of many, many different kinds of people.

    Not just the people who need people.

    Leave a comment:


  • Teylen
    replied
    Originally posted by Darthpalpy View Post
    The problem with touchstones does appear if you chose to roleplay a reasonably old caïnite (300 years old at least).
    From my understanding said kindred does require a connection to a human (V5 alpha) or humanity (V4 and previous).
    Having one or several touchstones might be a better explanation how the bastard managed to be a bastard than the previous system.

    With the previous system a 300+ old kindred couldn't dispose of, torture, kill humans at will.
    At least not as long as they want to have a humanity above 3 or 2.
    With the system proposed in the alpha 300+ old kindred can dispose of and kill humans at will.
    They just have to care about three humans that they don't want/can kill at ease.

    Narratively it does work quite well with the vampire chronicles. In which the older vampires did look out for and acquired some connection to humanity. Though they apparently could use fledling/young vampires for it.

    Humans are at that point little more than puppets that can be manipulated
    I actually consider it a nice twist in the V5 Alpha that an elder (generally an inhumane) kindred gets worse at manipulating humans.

    Leave a comment:


  • Monalfie
    replied
    I don't know, insisting people calm down in what seems like a pretty reasonable discussion seems pretty unnecessary.
    And the idea that maybe stuff will change wildly seems some pretty strong optimism. Being a World of Warcraft fan for the life of the game has taught me companies can be very good at self-sabotaging their source of income.

    Leave a comment:


  • Growls
    replied
    Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
    I believe now is the time to complain. If White Wolf is thinking about using these bad rules, a reclamation can now lead to some revision and they will get better, if they are not they will not miss anything. After launching they will not review defective parts and systems and we will have to deal with this for a long time.
    I'm pretty sure they've gottent that exact feedback. Nothing you're stating is news, and we've been engaging the team with feedback since GenCon with concerns about the touchstone mechanics. And if *I* can come up with ways to use the touchstone system to portray Inhuman Elders and Sabbat in five minutes, I'm quite sure the team that has been working on this as their *main source of income* have found a way to angle it properly.

    Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
    We should have started to complain earlier.
    We did. So, I'm asking again, cool yer jets. At this point, you're screaming into the void.
    I'm pretty sure what we're going to be complaining about in V5 is going to be all other sorts of things.

    Leave a comment:


  • Darthpalpy
    replied
    The problem with touchstones does appear if you chose to roleplay a reasonably old caïnite (300 years old at least). You are ancient, a bastard who survived when most of the vampire you knew are mostly dust. You've been involved in Camarilla politics for decades and it's mostly your sole interest. Frankly, I don't see such a PC having much link to humanity, only as a mean to an end to counteract the beast.
    Humans are at that point little more than puppets that can be manipulated, drank and sometimes sacrified to your ends.
    Touchstones would be the end of such a vampire in a century or so. hell, how could a vampire who stooped to 3 points of humanity not devolve in a matter of days... I know it's possible with the old rules, but with touchstones, such an attitude and ambivalence toward mortals will get you straight to wassail. And I just describe most of the examples of ancillae in the Cam... not even elders, which in the new setting will be something interesting to play ^^ (if it's even possible, we'll see)
    For my part, I've already preordered the books, because I did like to run the alpha playtest. But the only thing that truly angered my group was the treatment of Humanity, and for those I know who read the alpha rules, that was "la pierre d'achoppement", the boulder in the way of a smooth thing.
    We'll see and I hope they will change that aspect...

    Leave a comment:


  • elmerg
    replied
    Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
    We should have started to complain earlier.

    What rules matter to you?

    I'm actually relatively alright with the rules changes we've seen in the newer alpha. I like the streamlined combat. I like Hunger. I am ambivalent towards Touchstones, as I get their purpose but they're easy enough for me to switch to 'things that tie you to Humanity to offset the monstrous urges of the Beast' if it doesn't end up written that way, I'm okay with the Discipline changes (I'm used to things like each level of the Physical Disciplines having individual effects, as a LARPer). Compulsions I feel run alright, they weren't as intrusive as a lot of people scream about. I'm okay with the Sabbat coming in another book, because it also gives WW time to develop the Sabbat's plot, since they have a huge part to play in the oncoming metaplot. There are ways to take Touchstones as a concept and use the mechanic for Paths (your vaulderie and pack, for example), but I'm withholding heavy judgement until I can see a finished product. And I really like the lore updates, there's a lot of interesting stuff to mine for new plot.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ben Linus
    replied
    We should have started to complain earlier.

    What rules matter to you?

    Leave a comment:


  • elmerg
    replied
    Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post


    I believe now is the time to complain. If White Wolf is thinking about using these bad rules, a reclamation can now lead to some revision and they will get better, if they are not they will not miss anything. After launching they will not review defective parts and systems and we will have to deal with this for a long time.


    On Hill, I think it was an immense loss to the company, his work was extraordinary and the plans he had for the continuation of the exciting V20 Dark Ages, even more so than in the Black Hand V20 he brought back to Ancient Magic based in Foundation and Pillars.


    But I hope the publisher at least has a good sense to continue his work by filling what's still vital in the empty spaces of the setting.

    There's no time to make massive sweeping changes. If they're shipping in August for the core, they have ot have the text edited in June to print in July.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ben Linus
    replied
    Originally posted by Growls View Post
    Wow.


    I'm not sure we'll get something to cater to everyone, and if raving fans of Exalted are anything to go by, this is going to be an insane edition war once it drops. But I think that the Sabbat will get here. Eventually. And it will be marvelous.
    For better or worse.

    I believe now is the time to complain. If White Wolf is thinking about using these bad rules, a reclamation can now lead to some revision and they will get better, if they are not they will not miss anything. After launching they will not review defective parts and systems and we will have to deal with this for a long time.


    On Hill, I think it was an immense loss to the company, his work was extraordinary and the plans he had for the continuation of the exciting V20 Dark Ages, even more so than in the Black Hand V20 he brought back to Ancient Magic based in Foundation and Pillars.


    But I hope the publisher at least has a good sense to continue his work by filling what's still vital in the empty spaces of the setting.

    Leave a comment:


  • elmerg
    replied
    Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
    I believe that generation will be revised.

    For a Gehenna of respect, at least Cain must die. But it is speculation.

    They posited something when the first alpha came out about how Generation MIGHT work. Generation there gave a Blood Potency rating, which represented concentrated vampiric power; gen 13-10 had 0; 9th-7th had 1, 6-5 had 2, and 4th had 3. You subtracted that potency rating from the total when checking for Hunger at the end of a scene, it added to stuff for Compulsions (representing a stronger Beast) and subtract BP from the amount of Hunger lost (meaning if you WERE hungry it took more to fil up). Obviously not 100%, but a decent start.

    Leave a comment:


  • Growls
    replied
    Wow.
    Lots of people with crystal balls in here. Would anyone care to give me the lottery numbers for next week as well?

    Right now, all we have are playtests, which are 10 months out of date. I can understand the fact that people are afraid and upset, but we need to chill. This is not the Holy Grail we're talking about.

    I'm not sure we'll get something to cater to everyone, and if raving fans of Exalted are anything to go by, this is going to be an insane edition war once it drops. But I think that the Sabbat will get here. Eventually. And it will be marvelous.
    For better or worse.

    Will it have Requiem stuff? No one knows. Will it use the same rules? Maybe.

    And yeah, there are a lot of people who are going to be Onyx Path Crusaders till the end, but on the other hand, I regularly run into people who are fans of VtM that haven't got the faintest idea of what OPP is.
    Blame marketing.

    Also, isn't DAV20 dead as a doornail since David Hill got sacked?

    Leave a comment:


  • Ben Linus
    replied
    I believe that generation will be revised.

    For a Gehenna of respect, at least Cain must die. But it is speculation.

    Leave a comment:


  • PMárk
    replied
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post

    Well, for one thing the setting of VtM includes ancient powerful elders with massive bloodpools... I think Angry Blood Gods is the usual description.

    Except with the Hunger system, every vampire from the lowliest Caitiff straight up to urShulgi and Ennoia get hungry at the same rate, and roughly as often. And it happens, at random, during other, sometimes unrelated activity. So, a the lowly Caitiff might fight off a dozen Garou with nothing but a silver butter knife, and, through very, very lucky dice rolling, not even be a little peckish. Meanwhile, Baba Yaga could get famished just from working really hard at doing a crossword puzzle, if the dice fall wrong.

    The Angry Blood Gods have fallen.
    I'd just make a emark that since we do not know anything about how generation would work in V5, we can't say the above either.

    Leave a comment:

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