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  • Mr. Sluagh
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post

    It has nothing to do with the Metaplot changes. The books do not offer the Sabbat as an option. Nothing about the tools revealed have been intended to cover the Sabbat as Pcs. As npcs you don't need to know how they get away with inhumane actions and not wassail that's been a thing since 1e.

    Now complaining about a lack of path rules, a lack of ritae a lack of mechanics for each and every clan and bloodline under the moon is a legitimate complaint but that's not what is going on here. Looking at Humanity, touchstones and saying "they don't work for sabbat" is self obvious.. they aren't meant to be used for Sabbat. Sabbat will have its own book with special rules for it. These tools aren't meant to be used whatsover for them though.
    Is it legitimate to say that I think making Camarilla and Sabbat different games, and not making Sabbat playable, are both bad design choices? I think they both unnecessarily constrict play potential, and are likely to alienate a lot of players. I think focusing an entire game on a specific type of story arc and point of view is something that's more appropriate in a rules lite indie game that doesn't waste time having you spell out your character's every skill if it's not going to give you total freedom in deciding who your character is.

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Illithid View Post
    I agree with you Lian, it as important to discuss how it handles Garou. It's very important ;P
    The updated Metaplot and setting might not have Sabbat in it. Great, I can appreciate that. But what about ongoing games that are interested in converting to V5? Or a new game that wants to include them as a part of the story; the fact that a small part isn't covered will cut a large potential out of what you can run with the system.
    It has nothing to do with the Metaplot changes. The books do not offer the Sabbat as an option. Nothing about the tools revealed have been intended to cover the Sabbat as Pcs. As npcs you don't need to know how they get away with inhumane actions and not wassail that's been a thing since 1e.

    Now complaining about a lack of path rules, a lack of ritae a lack of mechanics for each and every clan and bloodline under the moon is a legitimate complaint but that's not what is going on here. Looking at Humanity, touchstones and saying "they don't work for sabbat" is self obvious.. they aren't meant to be used for Sabbat. Sabbat will have its own book with special rules for it. These tools aren't meant to be used whatsover for them though.

    Now saying "They don't work for Cam/anarch" that's legit criticism. They intend them to work for that, so calling them out on what they try and fail at is a legit thing.

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  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by Murder-of-Crows View Post
    Honestly, until we hold the finalized V5 book in our hands, this whole discussion seems a lot premature. It's based entirely on an Alpha playtest, where the developers have been trying out somethings. I have participated in other playtests, and often it turned out that stuff from the alpha or beta got completely discarded. So I will buy V5 and I think it's going to be a game I like. The direction of the metaplot has been shown in BJD giving me a lot of confidence in the future development.
    This is now an age where roleplaying games are putting out public Alphas, unlike early editions. The only reason to publicly release this early a version is to get crowd sourced feedback (and not pay as much for playtester wages...) Already we've seen a dramatic change on a number of issues raised in the Pre-Alpha
    As to your experience on Playtests - that's exactly why things change from Alpha to Beta onwards, because of the discussions like this one.

    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    We objectively know 5e WON'T have Paths. We have some ideas on humanity, but we know the base book will not in any fashion cover playing Sabbat. So while there are valid points of discussion and saying whether you think the humanity rules work with the cam/anarchs seems on point. Discussing how the game handles Sabbat seems about as on point as discussing how well it handles Garou.
    I agree with you Lian, it as important to discuss how it handles Garou. It's very important ;P
    The updated Metaplot and setting might not have Sabbat in it. Great, I can appreciate that. But what about ongoing games that are interested in converting to V5? Or a new game that wants to include them as a part of the story; the fact that a small part isn't covered will cut a large potential out of what you can run with the system.

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Sycophant View Post

    I don't feel it is actually. I've been reading most of them to keep up to date on what people think. This isn't much different than test audiences for films. Just because people seem to be on a sliding scale towards no doesn't make it invaluable or less valid. If anything it gives developers who might read this an idea of what their audience will and will not go for.

    We objectively know 5e WON'T have Paths. We have some ideas on humanity, but we know the base book will not in any fashion cover playing Sabbat. So while there are valid points of discussion and saying whether you think the humanity rules work with the cam/anarchs seems on point. Discussing how the game handles Sabbat seems about as on point as discussing how well it handles Garou.

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  • Sycophant
    replied
    Originally posted by Murder-of-Crows View Post
    Honestly, until we hold the finalized V5 book in our hands, this whole discussion seems a lot premature..
    I don't feel it is actually. I've been reading most of them to keep up to date on what people think. This isn't much different than test audiences for films. Just because people seem to be on a sliding scale towards no doesn't make it invaluable or less valid. If anything it gives developers who might read this an idea of what their audience will and will not go for.

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  • Mr. Sluagh
    replied
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    I wonder if anyone has considered just going ahead and writing a sourcebook for Vampions. That's where we keep winding up anyway.
    I do need to get around to finishing my SpyCraft/FantasyCraft (that being a d20 flavor) conversion, but I'm too lazy and employed.

    The upshot is that I don't port Humanity/Paths very directly at all. The closest thing is a D&D-like alignment system, but with 3 axes: instead of Good/Evil and Law/Chaos, there's Conscience/Conviction, Temperance/Instinct, and Faith/Courage. An alignment is mostly flavor text unless one takes the Zealot class, which is similar to the Cleric in D&D or Priest in FantasyCraft. Being a Zealot represents having True Faith or 8-10 Humanity/Path, and allows access to special abilities associated with the character's specific Path.

    The only other game mechanic associated with alignment is the "Crisis of Faith" subplot. Subplots being a sort of long form version of "encounters" in D&D. The character with the subplot is entitled to a number of related scenes an opportunity to gain XP or other rewards. Crisis of Faith also includes a possibility to change alignments.

    Basically, I would prefer to have Humanity be a character option that tells the GM that you want your character's story to be focused on morality. I don't actually like forcing everyone to be on a Path at all. Just make both Path and Touchstones into Backgrounds.

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
    Not terribly far off. The comment in question doesn't even indicate it is related to losing humanity, though. It indicates just being a vampire makes you lose memories.
    "Most vampires lose Humanity as they age, and as the alien Blood within them gnaws away at their sentiments, their memories, and their connections to the daylight world."
    I don't see how that's any bit new? Fog of ages you go to sleep you wake up confused. People's memories naturally twist when they age. Applying to it that those who interact less and less with the mortal world is not really all the different from being human.

    Which would be fine if it was presented to be that way. So far the only ways to clearly do that are 'completing a major personal story arc involved (at least) gaining a new touchstone and deliberately turning away from Kindred society and power.'
    OR
    Go an entire year without using a discipline or drinking human blood. Whereas you can lose humanity in a plethora of ways.
    So there's some sort of reason to drop out of vampire society for extended periods of time and not to be constantly on game...


    It is a fair concern when in V20 most Sabbat aren't on a Path, but are also meant to be reasonably viable characters. Paths were never a necessity before to remain Sabbat, though now it would seem like they are given how Humanity functions here.
    No they aren't. Pathless sabbat are shovelheads. They are meant to die. The majority of the sect is meant to last a couple of years and burn out. Having to jump on a path to mass embrace is not an OUNCE different than having to be on a path to handle constant Monomancy.

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  • PMárk
    replied
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    I am not saying the IRA were awesome. I just meant it wasn't necessary for the writers to kick this particular ant-hill in a product that's supposed to be an enticement to something new in VtM.

    It's like if a brand of paper towels ended their tv commercial with a passing mention of the company owner's stance on a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian issue. Not only does it not help sell paper-towels, it doesn't help with politics, either.

    The goal of the writer of this section was ostensibly to explain how the new Humanity system works, not to make pronouncements of their personal political stances. As somebody (no one's sure who) once said about writers in Hollywood who write with political agendas, "If you wanna send a message, use Western Union!"

    The reason for the Western Union rule of thumb is simple: when you insert your politics into unrelated pieces of writing, it distracts from the actual purpose of the writing.

    Like it's doing right now.

    I'd much rather be discussing Touchstones and Humanity rules, yet here we are side-tracked by a writer who... ummm... decided to make a political point?... couldn't take the time to find an example of a Touchstone less freighted with controversy?...wanted to seem "topical"?

    I don't know what the goal was, but if the V5 is aiming to be more "current" and "topical", they need more practice. Especially since, given the Good Friday Accord was 20 years ago, it's hardly a current topic.

    It's fine writing to do good, but it also needs to be done well.
    Without getting into the whole IRA stuff, I just wanted to say, I was never a fan of the "no politics in the game" argument. Yes, not every game needs contemporary politics in it, but WoD, IMO should. That was what the whole debacle was about back then during the Grand Masquerade event Q&A and I agreed and still agree with the WW staff on the topic.

    Averyone who doesn't want baked-in real-world connections in a game about schemng vampires, set in the modern times, well, there's CofD for that.

    However, what I feel the older editions did well in handling this particular question, is that the writers put the political arguments into the mouth of in-character narrators (and there was a healthy diversity among those), so the books didn't felt like the writers are making statements about the world and spoon-feeding the readers from an omniscient standpoint. I believe V5 should do the same.

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  • Inertial Frame
    replied
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    European LARP stuff...
    I wonder how many potential players just never came back.


    ... A bunch of stuff...


    I wonder if anyone has considered just going ahead and writing a sourcebook for Vampions. That's where we keep winding up anyway.
    These two things in particular are gold. I don't know who you are, Nosimplehiway, but I love you.

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  • jamiemalk
    replied
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post


    I am not saying the IRA were awesome. I just meant it wasn't necessary for the writers to kick this particular ant-hill in a product that's supposed to be an enticement to something new in VtM.

    It's like if a brand of paper towels ended their tv commercial with a passing mention of the company owner's stance on a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian issue. Not only does it not help sell paper-towels, it doesn't help with politics, either.

    The goal of the writer of this section was ostensibly to explain how the new Humanity system works, not to make pronouncements of their personal political stances. As somebody (no one's sure who) once said about writers in Hollywood who write with political agendas, "If you wanna send a message, use Western Union!"

    The reason for the Western Union rule of thumb is simple: when you insert your politics into unrelated pieces of writing, it distracts from the actual purpose of the writing.

    Like it's doing right now.

    I'd much rather be discussing Touchstones and Humanity rules, yet here we are side-tracked by a writer who... ummm... decided to make a political point?... couldn't take the time to find an example of a Touchstone less freighted with controversy?...wanted to seem "topical"?

    I don't know what the goal was, but if the V5 is aiming to be more "current" and "topical", they need more practice. Especially since, given the Good Friday Accord was 20 years ago, it's hardly a current topic.
    .
    You were the one who raised this point, by saying that the IRA shouldn't be referred to as terrorists. No one would be talking about it otherwise...

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  • Murder-of-Crows
    replied
    Honestly, until we hold the finalized V5 book in our hands, this whole discussion seems a lot premature. It's based entirely on an Alpha playtest, where the developers have been trying out somethings. I have participated in other playtests, and often it turned out that stuff from the alpha or beta got completely discarded. So I will buy V5 and I think it's going to be a game I like. The direction of the metaplot has been shown in BJD giving me a lot of confidence in the future development.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nosimplehiway
    replied
    Originally posted by KRB View Post
    This is a bad idea from the euro-LARP community, where the supercool kids got to play vampires and the rest of the players had to be ghouls or mortals until they became cool enough to be vampires too. It creates a lot of bookkeeping and detracts from the story in a TT game.
    I had no idea that was how it worked there. I've only LARPed a few times here in the US, but every time I did, the STs gave me the option of playing a vampire I designed built on few points, a vampire with lots of input from them to fit better in the story built on slightly more points, or a straight-up npc, which could be anything from a random mortal to member of an attacking garou pack. I usually went with the middle option. I have once or twice gone with the full npc. Not having the option, though, would have annoyed me. I wonder how many potential players just never came back.

    Originally posted by KRB View Post
    No, the lengthy list of random civilian bombings and assassinations make them 100% a terrorist organization. What they could not win at the ballot box they tried to gain via the bullet box instead. Coming from a neutral, btw. I don't care at all about Irish politics other than I hope it is settled peacefully and civilly.
    I am not saying the IRA were awesome. I just meant it wasn't necessary for the writers to kick this particular ant-hill in a product that's supposed to be an enticement to something new in VtM.

    It's like if a brand of paper towels ended their tv commercial with a passing mention of the company owner's stance on a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian issue. Not only does it not help sell paper-towels, it doesn't help with politics, either.

    The goal of the writer of this section was ostensibly to explain how the new Humanity system works, not to make pronouncements of their personal political stances. As somebody (no one's sure who) once said about writers in Hollywood who write with political agendas, "If you wanna send a message, use Western Union!"

    The reason for the Western Union rule of thumb is simple: when you insert your politics into unrelated pieces of writing, it distracts from the actual purpose of the writing.

    Like it's doing right now.

    I'd much rather be discussing Touchstones and Humanity rules, yet here we are side-tracked by a writer who... ummm... decided to make a political point?... couldn't take the time to find an example of a Touchstone less freighted with controversy?...wanted to seem "topical"?

    I don't know what the goal was, but if the V5 is aiming to be more "current" and "topical", they need more practice. Especially since, given the Good Friday Accord was 20 years ago, it's hardly a current topic.

    It's fine writing to do good, but it also needs to be done well.

    Originally posted by KRB View Post
    V5, where every story becomes a "save the damsel in distress" trope once the antagonists find out who your character's touchstones are.
    I wonder if anyone has considered just going ahead and writing a sourcebook for Vampions. That's where we keep winding up anyway.

    Originally posted by KRB View Post
    The first action in V5 is to not buy V5, and just use V20. The only reason I can think of to follow V5 would be for the metaplot, but I am sure nuWW will fuck that up royally too. Unfortunately OPP did not bid enough for the old WW IP's, and now we are stuck with this crap.
    My concern is that the quantum cloud that is WoD/CoD vampire gaming may get stretched too thin. If a quarter are playing VtR1, a quarter are playing VtR2, a quarter are playing V20, a quarter are playing V5, a quarter are playing some homebrew combo, a quarter are LARPing w/old rules, a quarter are LARPing w/ new rules, a quarter are playing V1 throwback games, etc, etc...

    I get the whole "let a thousand flowers bloom" theory, but at some point I need to find a half dozen actual humans, within easy travel distance, and get us all to agree on a game. Hopefully, a game in which the players know the mechanics. The more versions there are, the harder that is.

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  • KRB
    replied
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    Now, as for my concerns with Humanity and Touchstones, as written in V5 alpha... anybody want to follow me on a read-through? Wanna go boating in my stream of consciousness? Just please keep all hands and feet inside the car at all times, and don't stand up until the ride comes to a complete stop.

    All references are to the Humanity Chapter in alpha, you might want to open your pdfs for my comments to make any sense at all. (Though no promises they will, anyway.)

    And... begin!

    Page 26, paragraph 2: Wait... you lose memories when you lose Humanity? Are we importing the fog of ages thing from VtR1? ugh

    P26, ¶3: ALL vampires begin with Humanity 7? So, serial killers and saints all have the same score to start? Just wanna point out, they did not follow this rule with the sample characters in the scenario.
    Yeah, this is bad.

    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    P26, ¶4: It now costs a point of Humanity to embrace? Again with the wanting to be VtR when we grow up? So, no mass embraces. No embracing on a whim. This has BIG implications for meta-plot. The Sabbat has lost their main advantage. Clans will be much, much more homogeneous as fewer impulsive embraces happen. Caitiff will not be abandoned even when it becomes clear the traits didn't imprint properly, as they were expensive to create and may still be a useful pawn. Minor bloodlines arriving in a city will not be turned away as quickly, since they are a potential ally you don't lose Humanity to gain. It also means those Camarilla vampires who play by the rules and are granted the right to embrace are likely to reach lower Humanity. A Prince, with right to progeny, is virtually guaranteed to go wight eventually. Oh, and, I cannot even begin to imagine a Scourge operating in this environment.
    Bye-bye shovelheads and compassionate embraces.

    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    Touchstone section: So, everybody begins with three TSs? There are never any agoraphobics, social phobics, or just plain loners embraced? Have we just completely abandoned the old VtM trope that when you're embraced you must distance yourself from your mortal family "for their safety"? Is every vampire now a "cleaver"? And is no embracee super-involved in people's lives and have, say, five TSs?
    This is a bad idea from the euro-LARP community, where the supercool kids got to play vampires and the rest of the players had to be ghouls or mortals until they became cool enough to be vampires too. It creates a lot of bookkeeping and detracts from the story in a TT game.

    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    (Small off-topic note... I think the neutral historical description of the IRA would be "paramilitary group", not, you know... "terrorists". Just saying to watch author POVs leaking through. Don't want to start a political pillow fight, but you could just pick a different example. This comment will seem totally random if you aren't reading along with your pdf, but I did warn you at the start.)
    No, the lengthy list of random civilian bombings and assassinations make them 100% a terrorist organization. What they could not win at the ballot box they tried to gain via the bullet box instead. Coming from a neutral, btw. I don't care at all about Irish politics other than I hope it is settled peacefully and civilly.

    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    Damaging and Destroying Touchstones: Okay, so, now every vampire is required to have a Lois Lane they have to constantly save? (Yes, comics nerds, I know LL is now a liberated lady, I'm making a point.) So, in a chronicle with 5 vampire PCs, there will be 15 Dependent NPCs? (Shout out to Hero System! 15 point woop-woop!) Plus, three for every npc vampire. Sounds like a lot of work. Even for me, and I think everyone here knows I spit out character concepts like sneezes.
    V5, where every story becomes a "save the damsel in distress" trope once the antagonists find out who your character's touchstones are.

    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    DDT, continued: A TS being damaged (totally-woke-example given: a widow having the audacity to remarry!) costs the PC a level of Humanity. Note, there is no saving throw here. If a TS dies violently or just doesn't live up to the vampire's ideal about them, the PC loses 2 Humanity. If the destruction is the PC's fault, they lose an additional Humanity. So, if your TS is your daughter and you value her because she is innocent and untouched... you lose 1 Humanity when she goes out on a date and makes out. You lose another two Humanity when you realize they "did it". Then lose another Humanity when you realize you introduced her to that nice young man who defiled your preshuss. (He seemed so nice!) Four Humanity lost because a young woman was, you know, a young woman. If, by some luck, your daughter had died from cancer instead of growing up, well, it's sad and all, but just find some other innocent to replace her as the object of your protection. You'd be all good, then. In that scenario, you lose no Humanity. Awesome rule, guys!

    In V5, my first action will be to take all my TSs, whom I value because they enjoy quiet time alone, and will lock them in a small, but comfortable, cell, and throw away the key!

    When Humanity Fails: Okay, so there are clear penalties to low Humanity. I genuinely like this part. Charts are fun.

    Increasing Humanity: Wait, so you have to find new TSs to increase your Humanity? So, is there a limit to the number of TSs you wind up with? If a vampire were very conscientious and regained Humanity every time she lost it, say, once a year... she could have 23 TSs to keep track of in 20 years. Is this now called "Vampire: the Codependency"?

    You can increase Humanity by not drinking human blood and not using disciplines for a year? So, torpor would do it? I forget was that a VtR thing, too? Or was that just blood potency?
    The first action in V5 is to not buy V5, and just use V20. The only reason I can think of to follow V5 would be for the metaplot, but I am sure nuWW will fuck that up royally too. Unfortunately OPP did not bid enough for the old WW IP's, and now we are stuck with this crap.

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  • Mr. Sluagh
    replied
    One thing I was hoping for this time around was greater system compatibility and setting unity between WoD gamelines. I really dislike the idea of going in the opposite correction. Now are people going to be saying that the "Sabbat" in a Camarilla game are different from the "Sabbat" in a Sabbat game? The "one WoD vs many, Lupines vs Garou" religious war does not need to go fractal.

    Then again, I see no reason to expect this, given that the system presented isn't any more appropriate for the Camarilla than the Sabbat.

    In fact, I can even see more potential for touchstones in the Sabbat -- at least, comedic potential. Think about Paranoia, the dystopian satire RPG where everyone is supposed to shoot mutant traitors, but everyone is secretly from a different faction of mutant traitors. Similarly, under the V5 system, every Sabbat PC will have to sentimentally protect mortal loved ones while pretending to be a ruthless monster.
    Last edited by Mr. Sluagh; 05-10-2018, 10:04 PM.

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  • Sycophant
    replied
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    Sign me on as being not a fan of the Touchstone and Humanity systems as presented in the V5 alpha.

    Note how I phrase that, because I hope there may be pleasant surprises come August. Of course, it's May now, so, well,... when do the galley proofs ship?

    Anyway, if we're stuck with Touchstones come August, a Gordian Knot solution to using them with the Sabbat might exist. Allow Sabbat, and possibly other Path followers, to use fellow Sabbat as Touchstones. Maybe even take whole packs, as institutions, as Touchstones.

    The inherent value this represents might even serve as a streamlining of the whole vinculum system. If you're a Sabbat vampire and your Touchstones are the other three packs in town, you have a very strong reason to be loyal.

    Anyone who has ever run a political Sabbat game knows the record-keeping involved in the vaulderie quickly turns into Vampire: the Chartered Accountancy.
    Especially in LARPs Holy smokes that was a pain in the keester.

    As for the whole of the discussion and someone's idea that the Sabbat should be a separate game book within Vampire: hard stop, definite no. Not a fan of what I've read so far of the new system or what I've seen in game play. Definitely not for the idea of making a separate book with separate mechanics within a game system it should be about already. New powers, maybe new blood lines, etc. Sure that's fine. But treating the main book and then a Sabbat book like two separate systems that we hope will cross over. Just no.

    Main books are already getting to the point they rival (or in some cases surpass) console/PC games. This doesn't take into account the additional splat books that all RPG companies come up with, for better or worse. I realize they are in it to make money and I can get behind that. But not at the risk of pricing fans out of their product line. Which is another reason why some companies ,and hopefully WW will realize this, don't attempt to make everything it's own rule book and stick with supplements.

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