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Paths and the Sabbat in 5e

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  • Monalfie
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    That's not how Fog of ages worked. Actually having issues for being low on a path and close to the beast might be a worthwhile thing.
    Not terribly far off. The comment in question doesn't even indicate it is related to losing humanity, though. It indicates just being a vampire makes you lose memories.
    "Most vampires lose Humanity as they age, and as the alien Blood within them gnaws away at their sentiments, their memories, and their connections to the daylight world."

    1. I get the impression Humanity is meant to be more fluid in V5 rather than being a solid downward spiral something that they claw back and forth until the final frenzy.
    Which would be fine if it was presented to be that way. So far the only ways to clearly do that are 'completing a major personal story arc involved (at least) gaining a new touchstone and deliberately turning away from Kindred society and power.'
    OR
    Go an entire year without using a discipline or drinking human blood. Whereas you can lose humanity in a plethora of ways.

    2. ON the sabbat.. really? Really? are you seriously complaining that the Sabbat have to get away with something that innately costs them a Humanity to function.. when that's been BUILT INTO THE DAMNED SECT SINCE 1E. Paths exist to justify Diablere letting it also justify mass embraces isn't any different. It means those who don't make the leap onto paths are in for a short unlife but.. that doesn't change a thing about the sabbat.
    It is a fair concern when in V20 most Sabbat aren't on a Path, but are also meant to be reasonably viable characters. Paths were never a necessity before to remain Sabbat, though now it would seem like they are given how Humanity functions here.
    Last edited by Monalfie; 05-10-2018, 12:20 PM.

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  • jamiemalk
    replied
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post

    (Small off-topic note... I think the neutral historical description of the IRA would be "paramilitary group", not, you know... "terrorists". Just saying to watch author POVs leaking through. Don't want to start a political pillow fight, but you could just pick a different example. This comment will seem totally random if you aren't reading along with your pdf, but I did warn you at the start.)
    Really...?

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  • PMárk
    replied
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    Now, as for my concerns with Humanity and Touchstones, as written in V5 alpha... anybody want to follow me on a read-through? Wanna go boating in my stream of consciousness? Just please keep all hands and feet inside the car at all times, and don't stand up until the ride comes to a complete stop.

    All references are to the Humanity Chapter in alpha, you might want to open your pdfs for my comments to make any sense at all. (Though no promises they will, anyway.)

    And... begin!

    Page 26, paragraph 2: Wait... you lose memories when you lose Humanity? Are we importing the fog of ages thing from VtR1? ugh

    P26, ¶3: ALL vampires begin with Humanity 7? So, serial killers and saints all have the same score to start? Just wanna point out, they did not follow this rule with the sample characters in the scenario.

    P26, ¶4: It now costs a point of Humanity to embrace? Again with the wanting to be VtR when we grow up? So, no mass embraces. No embracing on a whim. This has BIG implications for meta-plot. The Sabbat has lost their main advantage. Clans will be much, much more homogeneous as fewer impulsive embraces happen. Caitiff will not be abandoned even when it becomes clear the traits didn't imprint properly, as they were expensive to create and may still be a useful pawn. Minor bloodlines arriving in a city will not be turned away as quickly, since they are a potential ally you don't lose Humanity to gain. It also means those Camarilla vampires who play by the rules and are granted the right to embrace are likely to reach lower Humanity. A Prince, with right to progeny, is virtually guaranteed to go wight eventually. Oh, and, I cannot even begin to imagine a Scourge operating in this environment.

    P26, ¶5: So, Humanity can be lost by doing evil, but it's just sort of at the fiat of the ST? And "painting with blood and offal" counts as an atrocity? That's just a thing in avant garde art. Maybe wear some gloves, but you forfeit your soul? Judgey much? What else will make you a monster; not knowing your color wheel?

    Touchstone section: So, everybody begins with three TSs? There are never any agoraphobics, social phobics, or just plain loners embraced? Have we just completely abandoned the old VtM trope that when you're embraced you must distance yourself from your mortal family "for their safety"? Is every vampire now a "cleaver"? And is no embracee super-involved in people's lives and have, say, five TSs?

    (Small off-topic note... I think the neutral historical description of the IRA would be "paramilitary group", not, you know... "terrorists". Just saying to watch author POVs leaking through. Don't want to start a political pillow fight, but you could just pick a different example. This comment will seem totally random if you aren't reading along with your pdf, but I did warn you at the start.)

    Damaging and Destroying Touchstones: Okay, so, now every vampire is required to have a Lois Lane they have to constantly save? (Yes, comics nerds, I know LL is now a liberated lady, I'm making a point.) So, in a chronicle with 5 vampire PCs, there will be 15 Dependent NPCs? (Shout out to Hero System! 15 point woop-woop!) Plus, three for every npc vampire. Sounds like a lot of work. Even for me, and I think everyone here knows I spit out character concepts like sneezes.

    DDT, continued: A TS being damaged (totally-woke-example given: a widow having the audacity to remarry!) costs the PC a level of Humanity. Note, there is no saving throw here. If a TS dies violently or just doesn't live up to the vampire's ideal about them, the PC loses 2 Humanity. If the destruction is the PC's fault, they lose an additional Humanity. So, if your TS is your daughter and you value her because she is innocent and untouched... you lose 1 Humanity when she goes out on a date and makes out. You lose another two Humanity when you realize they "did it". Then lose another Humanity when you realize you introduced her to that nice young man who defiled your preshuss. (He seemed so nice!) Four Humanity lost because a young woman was, you know, a young woman. If, by some luck, your daughter had died from cancer instead of growing up, well, it's sad and all, but just find some other innocent to replace her as the object of your protection. You'd be all good, then. In that scenario, you lose no Humanity. Awesome rule, guys!

    In V5, my first action will be to take all my TSs, whom I value because they enjoy quiet time alone, and will lock them in a small, but comfortable, cell, and throw away the key!

    When Humanity Fails: Okay, so there are clear penalties to low Humanity. I genuinely like this part. Charts are fun.

    Increasing Humanity: Wait, so you have to find new TSs to increase your Humanity? So, is there a limit to the number of TSs you wind up with? If a vampire were very conscientious and regained Humanity every time she lost it, say, once a year... she could have 23 TSs to keep track of in 20 years. Is this now called "Vampire: the Codependency"?

    You can increase Humanity by not drinking human blood and not using disciplines for a year? So, torpor would do it? I forget was that a VtR thing, too? Or was that just blood potency?
    Good points.

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post

    Page 26, paragraph 2: Wait... you lose memories when you lose Humanity? Are we importing the fog of ages thing from VtR1? ugh
    That's not how Fog of ages worked. Actually having issues for being low on a path and close to the beast might be a worthwhile thing.



    P26, ¶3: ALL vampires begin with Humanity 7? So, serial killers and saints all have the same score to start? Just wanna point out, they did not follow this rule with the sample characters in the scenario.
    Not a change, but codifying previous assumptions. Since we don't have a character build its pretty easy to assume "7 humanity starting you can sell down more for xp or buy up more with freebies"


    P26, ¶4: It now costs a point of Humanity to embrace? Again with the wanting to be VtR when we grow up? So, no mass embraces. No embracing on a whim. This has BIG implications for meta-plot. The Sabbat has lost their main advantage. Clans will be much, much more homogeneous as fewer impulsive embraces happen. Caitiff will not be abandoned even when it becomes clear the traits didn't imprint properly, as they were expensive to create and may still be a useful pawn. Minor bloodlines arriving in a city will not be turned away as quickly, since they are a potential ally you don't lose Humanity to gain. It also means those Camarilla vampires who play by the rules and are granted the right to embrace are likely to reach lower Humanity. A Prince, with right to progeny, is virtually guaranteed to go wight eventually. Oh, and, I cannot even begin to imagine a Scourge operating in this environment.
    1. I get the impression Humanity is meant to be more fluid in V5 rather than being a solid downward spiral something that they claw back and forth until the final frenzy.

    2. ON the sabbat.. really? Really? are you seriously complaining that the Sabbat have to get away with something that innately costs them a Humanity to function.. when that's been BUILT INTO THE DAMNED SECT SINCE 1E. Paths exist to justify Diablere letting it also justify mass embraces isn't any different. It means those who don't make the leap onto paths are in for a short unlife but.. that doesn't change a thing about the sabbat.



    Leave a comment:


  • Nosimplehiway
    replied
    Now, as for my concerns with Humanity and Touchstones, as written in V5 alpha... anybody want to follow me on a read-through? Wanna go boating in my stream of consciousness? Just please keep all hands and feet inside the car at all times, and don't stand up until the ride comes to a complete stop.

    All references are to the Humanity Chapter in alpha, you might want to open your pdfs for my comments to make any sense at all. (Though no promises they will, anyway.)

    And... begin!

    Page 26, paragraph 2: Wait... you lose memories when you lose Humanity? Are we importing the fog of ages thing from VtR1? ugh

    P26, ¶3: ALL vampires begin with Humanity 7? So, serial killers and saints all have the same score to start? Just wanna point out, they did not follow this rule with the sample characters in the scenario.

    P26, ¶4: It now costs a point of Humanity to embrace? Again with the wanting to be VtR when we grow up? So, no mass embraces. No embracing on a whim. This has BIG implications for meta-plot. The Sabbat has lost their main advantage. Clans will be much, much more homogeneous as fewer impulsive embraces happen. Caitiff will not be abandoned even when it becomes clear the traits didn't imprint properly, as they were expensive to create and may still be a useful pawn. Minor bloodlines arriving in a city will not be turned away as quickly, since they are a potential ally you don't lose Humanity to gain. It also means those Camarilla vampires who play by the rules and are granted the right to embrace are likely to reach lower Humanity. A Prince, with right to progeny, is virtually guaranteed to go wight eventually. Oh, and, I cannot even begin to imagine a Scourge operating in this environment.

    P26, ¶5: So, Humanity can be lost by doing evil, but it's just sort of at the fiat of the ST? And "painting with blood and offal" counts as an atrocity? That's just a thing in avant garde art. Maybe wear some gloves, but you forfeit your soul? Judgey much? What else will make you a monster; not knowing your color wheel?

    Touchstone section: So, everybody begins with three TSs? There are never any agoraphobics, social phobics, or just plain loners embraced? Have we just completely abandoned the old VtM trope that when you're embraced you must distance yourself from your mortal family "for their safety"? Is every vampire now a "cleaver"? And is no embracee super-involved in people's lives and have, say, five TSs?

    (Small off-topic note... I think the neutral historical description of the IRA would be "paramilitary group", not, you know... "terrorists". Just saying to watch author POVs leaking through. Don't want to start a political pillow fight, but you could just pick a different example. This comment will seem totally random if you aren't reading along with your pdf, but I did warn you at the start.)

    Damaging and Destroying Touchstones: Okay, so, now every vampire is required to have a Lois Lane they have to constantly save? (Yes, comics nerds, I know LL is now a liberated lady, I'm making a point.) So, in a chronicle with 5 vampire PCs, there will be 15 Dependent NPCs? (Shout out to Hero System! 15 point woop-woop!) Plus, three for every npc vampire. Sounds like a lot of work. Even for me, and I think everyone here knows I spit out character concepts like sneezes.

    DDT, continued: A TS being damaged (totally-woke-example given: a widow having the audacity to remarry!) costs the PC a level of Humanity. Note, there is no saving throw here. If a TS dies violently or just doesn't live up to the vampire's ideal about them, the PC loses 2 Humanity. If the destruction is the PC's fault, they lose an additional Humanity. So, if your TS is your daughter and you value her because she is innocent and untouched... you lose 1 Humanity when she goes out on a date and makes out. You lose another two Humanity when you realize they "did it". Then lose another Humanity when you realize you introduced her to that nice young man who defiled your preshuss. (He seemed so nice!) Four Humanity lost because a young woman was, you know, a young woman. If, by some luck, your daughter had died from cancer instead of growing up, well, it's sad and all, but just find some other innocent to replace her as the object of your protection. You'd be all good, then. In that scenario, you lose no Humanity. Awesome rule, guys!

    In V5, my first action will be to take all my TSs, whom I value because they enjoy quiet time alone, and will lock them in a small, but comfortable, cell, and throw away the key!

    When Humanity Fails: Okay, so there are clear penalties to low Humanity. I genuinely like this part. Charts are fun.

    Increasing Humanity: Wait, so you have to find new TSs to increase your Humanity? So, is there a limit to the number of TSs you wind up with? If a vampire were very conscientious and regained Humanity every time she lost it, say, once a year... she could have 23 TSs to keep track of in 20 years. Is this now called "Vampire: the Codependency"?

    You can increase Humanity by not drinking human blood and not using disciplines for a year? So, torpor would do it? I forget was that a VtR thing, too? Or was that just blood potency?

    Leave a comment:


  • Lian
    replied
    Or paths might run on a radically different mechanic than humanity.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nosimplehiway
    replied
    Sign me on as being not a fan of the Touchstone and Humanity systems as presented in the V5 alpha.

    Note how I phrase that, because I hope there may be pleasant surprises come August. Of course, it's May now, so, well,... when do the galley proofs ship?

    Anyway, if we're stuck with Touchstones come August, a Gordian Knot solution to using them with the Sabbat might exist. Allow Sabbat, and possibly other Path followers, to use fellow Sabbat as Touchstones. Maybe even take whole packs, as institutions, as Touchstones.

    The inherent value this represents might even serve as a streamlining of the whole vinculum system. If you're a Sabbat vampire and your Touchstones are the other three packs in town, you have a very strong reason to be loyal.

    Anyone who has ever run a political Sabbat game knows the record-keeping involved in the vaulderie quickly turns into Vampire: the Chartered Accountancy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Teylen
    replied
    The system in the playtest had it that you could still either ask for rolls for inhumane acts or straight up deduct humanity if someone is going to outright murder people for personal gain.

    In regards of the dice pool system, it is very likely that you have to roll under or above a variable number.
    Like, if they do that they would need dice with a different design than the current one.

    As for the Sabbat, I would say they are more the "left to be the horror from the dark [for now]"-faction.
    If they were extinct the upcoming third sourcebook would likely not be about them... ^^;

    Leave a comment:


  • Illithid
    replied
    I Personally don't think touchstones work with the previous thought of Humanity; as long as your touchstones are intact, (Almost) anything else is acceptable
    Killing to feed? Fine as long as you check on your 90y/o daughter in a nursing home, make sure she's taken care of.

    Someone threatens to evict your family touchstone which will mean they have to move to another state? Blackmail the developers, murder the new buyers. Just don't do anything that the old humanity system would have on rating 1, maybe 2. And don't embrace.

    This isn't Humanity, this is letting Vampires become monsters, and being ok with it as long as they have some connection with their previous life.
    Someone who isolates themselves from temptation, moves to the wilderness and only subsists on livestock blood from slaughterhouses? Never harms anyone because they keep away from people and the temptation?
    -Old system - Humanity 9-10. New system? Have no touchstones, so Humanity 1 probably. except that means that if they ever roll for frenzy, they will automatically fail because they need to roll UNDER a 1. And that frenzy will probably end up violently breaching the remaining things that could drop Humanity - creating a bloodbath

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  • Mr. Sluagh
    replied
    But Touchstones also don't fit well with the Camarilla. It makes sense that some Camarilla would maintain ties to humans they were close to in life. It doesn't make sense that the Camarilla would espouse the Masquerade, and also the Path of Humanity, if the latter meant maintaining ties to humans. A sect dedicated to preserving the Masquerade at all costs would want to discourage members from associating with people from their old lives.

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Illithid View Post

    That is still changing things dramatically from previous iterations. I expect a game that has rules that can be brought across easily to include Sabbat. Not another game system that handles Sabbat.

    Otherwise we'll have cross over issues like trying to put Werewolves and Vampire in the same game when Sabbat and Camarilla cross..
    Not really. COD has shown you can build from the ground up different games with crossover compatability. You just don't you know have powers that interact with stats people don't have.

    The issue with werewolves are powers that interact with Humanity and or virtues(vampire side) and powers that interact with Rage and Gnosis. The sabbat can easily have the core of its feeding/morality system built around paths rather than running on the same engine as Humanity/feeding that cam/anarchs use. Compatable games with strong focus on theirown thing is an option and the WOD is a very segrigated system. A mages and werewolves might exist in your city but damn if they going to Elysium or joining Sabbat packs.


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  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    Rules need not be in world simulation. That is to say V5 could be a game built to play and only to play Neonate cam and Anarchs. Then they make a different game from the ground up "Vampire: the sabbat" for playing the sabbat. Rather than trying to kludge humanity rules into Path rules. You build a game around paths. Also at the start the sabbat AREN'T the antagonist faction.. they are the "Extinct faction"

    The Metaplot is Cam vs Anarch vs Technocracy... I mean "Second Inquistion totally not sponsored by the Technocracy"
    That is still changing things dramatically from previous iterations. I expect a game that has rules that can be brought across easily to include Sabbat. Not another game system that handles Sabbat.

    Otherwise we'll have cross over issues like trying to put Werewolves and Vampire in the same game when Sabbat and Camarilla cross..

    If it were possible, I'd expect that V5 be cross compatible with all planned expansions (Werewolf5, Wraith5, Mage5 etc) since they are rebuilding it so dramatically anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lian
    replied
    Rules need not be in world simulation. That is to say V5 could be a game built to play and only to play Neonate cam and Anarchs. Then they make a different game from the ground up "Vampire: the sabbat" for playing the sabbat. Rather than trying to kludge humanity rules into Path rules. You build a game around paths. Also at the start the sabbat AREN'T the antagonist faction.. they are the "Extinct faction"

    The Metaplot is Cam vs Anarch vs Technocracy... I mean "Second Inquistion totally not sponsored by the Technocracy"

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr. Sluagh
    replied
    Keep in mind, I'm all for relationship systems. I'd love to see Vampire take a page out of Monster Hearts and other indie games in that way somehow. What I see in the alpha just looks like an overall bad relationship system that's particularly I'll-suited to V:tM

    Leave a comment:


  • Illithid
    replied
    I think that touchstones work in a certain kind of game.
    But if I wanted to play that kind of game, I'd have moved to Requiem already.

    Leave a comment:

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