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Tremere Diablerized in 1854. What would happen to his clan?

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  • Tremere Diablerized in 1854. What would happen to his clan?

    So in our game ( a heavily modified Transylvania chronicles), the characters in the last session failed to intercept a plot by a Baali metuselah to diablerize the body of Tremere within the dephts of Fortschritt. I detailed the story in a (very popular!) post a few months ago if you are interested ( , but don't worry, it is not necessary to read all that to participate in this thread. Long story short: Tremere/Saulot was diablerized and Etrius as well was killed in the process. While I have kept it as a possibility that the characters would fail, I didn't actually plan for it, so now I seek some advice/ideas again on how the story should continue. So what do you think would/should happen to clan Tremere if Tremere was diablerized and Etrius killed in 1854? Here's a few options I am considering:

    - The clan splinters and more or less falls apart into a minor bloodline
    - They are diciplined, structured and established enough to continue on into the modern nights pretty much as in the established meta-plot?
    - With Tremere and Etrius gone, Goratrix steps up to claim the clan he always thought should be his, and succeeds. He pushes the main clan into the sabbath (or maybe not?), the clan splinters.

    Also I am not really sure on what I should do with the now-Antedilluvan-blooded Baali:
    - The Baali now becomes a major clan.
    - A new Baali-war breaks out. I'll let the PCs play a major part in defeating the young antedilluvan before the modern nights steps in.
    - The incident was Saulots plan all a long. Finding he could not overcome Tremeres body, he have influenced the baali to diablerize them, and having control of his new host, he is finally able to suppress them both and probably disappears into the shadows.

    Any thoughts or ideas?

    Obviously, I am gonna skip the 2nd story of book 4, but I plan to progress into the final story more or less as it is. Also, obviously, I have no qualms about derailing from the official metaplot.

  • #2
    Some random thoughts...

    The Baali do not become a major clan. If a 4th gen diablerizes a 3rd gen, they usually seem to become something new. So, if the Baali who ate Tremere always thought the best place for demons to enter the world is in the sea, because no one watches there, and was really good at Celerity, there will be a new clan of evil fishermen who swim really fast or something. They will likely have many traits of the old Baali, and likely some of the Tremere, possibly in an ironic anti-Tremere sort of way. The clan doesn't just appear ex nihilo, though, they need to be embraced the old fashioned way. Historically, most ambitious 4th gens, have done that part first, btw. So, ymmv. (The Giovanni, Brujah, and, perhaps appropriately, the Tremere are good examples of this process.)

    A new Baali war seems likely, if this gets out. Though, wait... make that a maybe. The problem is whether anyone knows about this, and who would fight this war?

    So, if you were on the Council of Seven... umm, Six, now?... would you publicize the loss of Tremere? I would expect them to hide it and deny it for as long as possible. It's not like anybody demands the Toreador produce Arikel for inspection to prove they're a "real clan". And, really, who would believe some random Baali who claims he's now 3rd gen?

    When it does come out?

    The Assamites would normally be first in line to fight the Baali ante... though it was Tremere, so, maybe they send him a fruit basket? The Sabbat is on-board with any ante getting killed, and would usually extend a membership invitation, but, then, devil worshipers. The Camarilla wouldn't mind seeing Vienna brought down a few pegs, but, diablerie. Plus, the Cams are known for realpolitik, so if there's a new power player, they need to at least consider opening communications with them. The Anarchs probably see it as a relatively good thing, unless they know much about the Baali. The Talmahera... hard to say, though, probably similar to the reaction of the Assamites.

    My hunch is everyone would just shrug and get on with whatever they were doing before they found out.

    As for what happens to the Tremere, probably not much. Remember, Tremere has been torpid on and off for centuries. The clan weakness even revolves around the Council of Seven, rather than Tremere personally. So, there's really no need for any changes. There won't be any more 4th gen Tremere embraced, but that didn't happen all that often anyway. Remember, the members of the Council all have access to Path of Blood, so some of the advantages of third gen status are available, temporarily, to all of them.

    That said, there might be some sort of mystic backlash, like rising interest in infernalism within the clan, or changes in the mechanics of Thaumaturgy, similar to the changes from edition to edition. Now, otoh, if you want some mystic horrible-ness to strike the whole of Clan Tremere down, go ahead. I suppose Tremere, as a person, functioned as sort of a True Name for Clan Tremere. You could justify any kind of nastiness, if you wanted to, but the default option is "not much happens".

    Now, if the Baali should manage to kill the entire Council, thereby ending the blood-bond related clan-weakness... that would be a big deal.

    As for Goratrix... I don't know. He's in the Sabbat because there's an imposter inside Tremere's body, right? That problem is solved now. Maybe he rejoins the main clan? Then again, there are bloodlines and clans that have members both in and out of the Sabbat. The Ravnos, Assamites, and others manage it. Having either the antitribu join the Camarilla clan, or vice versa, makes for some major changes in vampiric lifestyle that seem hard to justify on the scale of individual vampires.

    Of course, this is your game at your table, so if you want this to kick-off Gehenna, go ahead.


    • #3
      I will second the idea that the Clan Tremere will just keep on going. The combination of Dominate, Blood Bonding, the strict hierarchy, and the siege mentality that all tremere are immersed in basically will mean they just close ranks and hunker down in their chantry bunkers to ride out what ever storm comes their way.

      ‚ÄčIf you look at the Clan design, they are very compartmentalized so that no one part being lost will bring down the rest. Each Chantry is essentially its own island of control and research. To make the clan splinter you would need to destroy the entire council of seven and then go after every regional commander. Only then would all the regents of each chantry start trying to jockey for power or autonomy.

      But if you are going to bend the storyline to that extreme, you might as well just hand wave the tremere out of existence by saying some infernal rite used while diablerizing Tremere caused a mystical feedback loop that immolated all of the bloodline.


      • #4
        I would splinter the Tremere into multiple Factions, and Have the Baali rise into true clan status, And hell have the new 3rd Gen sire a gross of childer! Everyone hates the Baali but they have a dark Renaissance!

        In my games I have the Baali essentially have their own version of At My Command It Breaths, to create a beastial bloodline call Belial's Brood, think Goat Headed, pig footed baphomet looking mother bleepers. So I would have it their new dark glamour earns a new wave of Apostates joining them, they cultivate a larger faction of Dark Thaumaturgists, and they work to have their 4th Gen find suitable Demon Lords to merge with. I would make Infernalism just explode across the World.

        It is a time for great deeds!


        • #5
          I think the Tremere are organized enough that they'll continue as is, especially since Tremere actually wasn't that active in the modern nights to begin with, and that the other clans don't have their founder up and around anyway.

          However, because this change is a result of how the PCs acted, this does need to have some sort of major impact in the game. So while my instincts would be, "this is Saulot's plan all along and he disappears," there should be some major obvious setting change so that the PCs can see the effects of their actions. Here are some ideas.

          1) Show some kind of different portrayal of the Tremere as a result of both Tremere and Etrius being gone. Maybe the divisions within the Tremere are obvious, and while the clan as a whole has maintained their power, and they aren't the monolith they once were with various chantries aligned into different factions. Or maybe the Tremere have become ever more secretive and untrusthworthy, or that the clan has become more open and trusted, or something else. Whatever it is, it is a result of different leadership as a result of that night in 1854.

          2) Tremere's diablerie and the subsequent embrace of more potent blooded childer, but all of whom have very low experience, has meant there's a lot more potent blooded people out there to diablerize. This could lead to a destabilzied situation as Camarilla Prince call blood hunts, the Assamites try to get them, and the Sabbat also go after them.

          3) The Baali have grown in power to destabilize things, even if they are not accepted as a major clan. Maybe the Sabbat are in a major war with them, or the Setites, or some other clan. This does not even need to impact your chronicle directly, as it is something that can easily happen off screen. But at least referring to it tells the players their choices had consequences.

          4) Their actions not only had that major consequence, but it had a domino effect. Baali are such a threat that the Followers of Set are in negotiations to join the Camarilla. Or that the Sabbat has mysteriously imploded with rumors that the Baali have destroyed their Regent in Mexico City. Or that Tremere's soul fled into Goratrix and subsequently the Tremere anti-tribu became a major power within the Sabbat and severely hurt the Tzimisce, or had to defect to the Camarilla as a result, but not before dealing major damage to the Sabbat, Or that the infernalists of the Sabbat have received help and caused its collapse into a Fourth Sabbat Civil War (which is really about the establishment of a new infernalist sect that the non-infernalist Sabbat may or may not be able to stop on their own).

          I like the idea of another Baali War, but I wouldn't make the factions easily apparent. Make it more complicated, with perhaps the rise of Baali style infernalism throughout the vampire world, and only the PCs really have enough information for them to figure it out and start convincing people.


          • #6
            I agree with a lot of that particularly those in point 4. I think now would be a good time for the Followers of Set to have at least a representation in the Camarilla because they already have experience in with the Deep Dark. I think the Infernalism would hit the Sabbat Hard. Also perhaps the few Molochim Baali who resist their clan funnel into the True Black Hand, perhaps oddly enough Moloch may stir under the Ruins of Carthage and joins the Clan over the Sect maybe hoping to fix it up into a workable entity, because he very much wasn't a good guy and he himself merged with a Legion-like Demon already.

            But the Tremere would still be in the Camarilla but they would start loosing power. When Tremere himself was your big bragging right, and now all of a sudden your Queen of England is Eaten by the true Soul Eating Demons uh oh. So I would have the trouble mean more Tremere able to lose the shackles of the Pyramid and join the Anarch, Sabbat, Baali, and some quietly going Independent or even Autarkis to study the occult. Meanwhile the big factions of the Council of 7 are butting heads over the power vacuum and what kind of Vampire should replace Etrius. I would probably have at least one of the other Council of Seven quitely go rogue, maybe fake its death or even Join the True Black Hand or the Baali. So they may need to replace like half the Council.

            It is a time for great deeds!


            • #7
              The Council of Seven acts much more forcefully than before, exerting much greater control over the various areas of the world they oversee. While some would see this as a reactionary response to preserve order, it also hides the fact that each remaining Councilor aims to strike out on their own eventually now; instead of one unified Clan with a central Council, each aims to basically carve the area of the world they're responsible for into a domain in and of itself, separate from any Council. In the long run, this would mean that even if the Tremere remain a pillar of the Camarilla, that could mean different things in different regions, as local Tremere power structures are more directly shaped by their Councilor.

              Eastern Europe, where Etrius was supposed to represent, has entered into a mystical freefall. Pontifexes have learned of what is happening, and many regions are acting entirely independently, weakening Tremere authority across Eastern Europe as a result. Due to the lack of an organized face to suppress them, Telyavic Tremere are safer, and expand in certain areas of Poland and Lithuania in the next few decades. The disorganized nature even leads to some chantries acting entirely independently, which invites all manner of supernatural foes. Werewolves, Tzimisce, and Baali become entrenched in areas around these chantries, often reaping quite the occult bounty in the process.

              The new Baali Antediluvian has become a vector for more than he bargained for. He begins acting extremely erratically, with the only thing he does consistently being siring childer. (Gehenna possibilities from here). He is, in fact, the plaything of true Antediluvians. The soul of Tremere is destroyed entirely (though you could always go the Cappadocius route and have him become a wraith, if that fits your game. Saulot still wrestles for control. The Tzimisce Antediluvian, spread by Tremere's blood, is exerting influence via Dominate, encouraging the siring of many childer to have more servants in time for Gehenna. He not only adores the idea of the Re-Embrace as a way to spread his network of influence far and wide, but believes that a combination of Dark Thaumaturgy, Koldunic Sorcery, and Daimonion could allow him to finally have a complete mastery over Kupala; the Cathedral of Flesh manifests in the Carpathian Mountains in a new and strange way: as the largest Well of Suffering in history. Should [Tzimisce] succeed, he could theoretically attempt complete consumption of or apotheosis with Kupala (cue Demon: The Fallen crossover if you so wish). Saulot, if he can gain control, wishes to destroy the Baali from within with his awesome powers, including a Dark Thaumaturgy ritual that he tells his dark disciples will bring Gehenna but in fact will just destroy all the Baali.


              • #8

                One question I forgot to ask is, "Who is the Baali?" I mean, the Baali have a wide variety of members. Is it a Molchim bent on maintaining the prison for the evil outsiders? Is it a plague bearer, a vermin fetishist, a high-class purveyor of vice, a scholarly demonologist, or a ravaging warrior?

                The character concept could make a big difference in the impact this has on the WoD.


                • #9
                  Snacking on Tremere seems like a poor choice, long-term. The 4th gen Baali that did the deed was probably no pushover, but he's likely not even within spitting distance of some of the other 4th gen elders out there, such as the Nictuku, or some of the oldest Assamites or Setites, who would be eager to liberate this stolen vitae, in addition to powerful forces from both Camarilla and Sabbat.

                  I could see various factions seeking an all-out war on the Baali (for legitimate reasons, from the remaining Tremere, or to cover their own shenanigans behind-the-scenes, in the case of the Assamites and Setites).

                  Goratrix would likely spearhead this initiative, and call in every favor his Clan has with the other Camarilla clans, since he would feel it imperative that *he* be the one to diablerize the Baali who diablerized Tremere, restoring his Clan's 'rightful' (stolen) status. It might also be an interesting jumping off point for a Sabbat branch of the Tremere, as Goratrix sends some Tremere to the Sabbat, to continue the war against the Baali from that corner, hoping that the Sabbat can also be lured into this world wide 'blood hunt' against an entire clan/bloodline...

                  And with open season on Baali, I could see at least some among them saying, 'well, to hell with this, no more skulking around in the shadows, trying not to get noticed!' and decide to go out in an orgy of excess, with grotesque blood cults, plagues, arson, rioting, outbreaks of madness and hysteria, etc.


                  • #10
                    Honestly, they'd go right on trucking.

                    As centralized and hierarchical as Tremere are, Tremere himself is a figurehead, not an administrator or executor. The Inner Council sets the clan's agenda, oversees their domains, and acts as the clan's highest administrative and executive body.

                    As to what would happen if Tremere died, unless it was in a very public and very undeniable way, the Council would cover it up by saying he's either in torpor in Vienna, or doing some form of extended research and not to be disturbed in any way. Remember, for all intents and purposes, sparing Augustus Tremere is the last known 3rd generation vampire still active; he's not strictly an Antediluvian (exceptionally old and powerful methuselahs like Japheth, ur-Shulgi, or Baba Yaga have better claim to the title despite not being 3rd generation), but he's close enough that his mere existence strains the Camarilla's party line Antediluvians don't exist. Hence why Tremere aren't particularly wont to discuss their founder -- the whole Salubri thing aside, which is in itself a whole different can of worms (pun intended).

                    And, it's good to remember the Council is very good at keeping its shit together, and intra-Council conflicts locked down. Likewise, they're very good at utilizing the Pyramid to keep unpopular opinions and inconvenient truths locked down even tighter (or at least, outside the boundaries of conversation where a higher-up or rival can't hear, which in a clan with Auspex and access to scrying is a bit of an ask).

                    Etrius' death would create more waves. I could see that going one of two ways:

                    1. The Council covers it up, by creating an Etrius clone through Thaumaturgy, Vicissitude, extensive tutoring and conditioning, and eventually diablerie to lower the proxy's gen. Higher risk, more time consuming, but bigger potential for payoff. Exercising this option hinges highly upon how well-known Etrius' "rumored" death was, and how risky the cover-up itself would be.

                    2. The Council acknowledges it, elects a new Councilor, and goes on. Councilors have died before, and while it tends to be a period of instability in that Councilor's domains and among the Pontifices who hope to gain a seat on the Council, the Tremere are more than capable of weathering the storm especially if the death can be laid at the hands of a clan enemy, to serve as a unifying force during the transitional period.


                    • #11
                      Wow, I really appreciate the replies from everyone. You are all offering interesting takes and giving me a lot to think about.

                      Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post

                      One question I forgot to ask is, "Who is the Baali?" I mean, the Baali have a wide variety of members. Is it a Molchim bent on maintaining the prison for the evil outsiders? Is it a plague bearer, a vermin fetishist, a high-class purveyor of vice, a scholarly demonologist, or a ravaging warrior?

                      The character concept could make a big difference in the impact this has on the WoD.
                      It was Ansen that appears as a character somewhere in the early books of Transylvania chronicles. He's been sort of a recurring villian in the chronicles, but has been under the radar of the PCs for several hundred years. Meanwhile he have been lowering his generation and building up a new set of minions. My Anseen is quite a bit more powerfull than he was in the book, however (Originally a 5th gen, I think he is 8th or something in the book). He would be a high class purveyor of vice from the options you list. In my game he is devout diciple of Kupala, he inhabitated the cathedral of flesh for a while (and maybe still is, though it has gone underground), and utilized some high level daimonion power to temporarily utilize Kupalas strrength in order to complete the diablerie. So in addition to his own strength and the blood of the antedilluvan, he also has whatever support Kupala is able to provide him. He also has control over a pack of Black spiral dancers (I don't know much about Werewolf so I don't know if that would be plausible in cannon or not) and have corrupted spies withing both the calmarilla and the sabbath (who were also utlized to complete the diablerie).

                      Some of my current thoughts:
                      - I'm quite certain I won't let the Tremere clan splinter and break because of what happened. Whether what happened will be publicly known or not, will depend a lo on the PCs actions, but probably not.
                      - One of the PCs is an Assamite who have been struggling with nihilism since the PCs last defeated Ansens group, lacking a clear goal, so he will be eager to pick up the fight again now. I am considering letting him discover information about Ur-shulgi as the most important combatant in the last Baali war, and letting him discover his resting place. He will probably choose to wake him up, and I can possibly let Ur-shulgi defeat Ansen (unless Anseen now is Saulot), but now the character will be responisble for a whole new shit-storm.
                      - I am fine with Tremere beeing dead and gone, but I'm not quite so eager to accept Saulot disappearing from the story.

                      Last edited by Snivelm; 05-12-2018, 06:34 PM.