need to balance Brujah clan Disciplines

[Vamps Like Us]

Going to be running a very limited spread of clans and disciplines allowed.

Clans: Brujah, Nosferatu, Toreador, and Ventrue.

Disciplines: Animalism, Auspex, Celerity, Dominate, Fortitude, Obfuscate, Potence, and Presence.

I don't like the Brujah having two Physical Disciplines (I see it as a disadvantage) and now that I'm sure I'm going to drop Gangrel I was thinking Animalism was a good fit since Brujah are very close to their beast and it fills the roll of a loaner woodsy type.

I just can't decide between Celerity and Potence to drop. I thought of dropping Celerity from the game for Temporis but I just don't like how it plays out at level 5 and can't see how someone with level 6 wouldn't have almost unlimited power in the mortal world basically being a walking fountain of youth. It seems to have baked in balance problems less fixable than Celerity, but it would give all 4 clans a signature discipline if I swapped in potence for Toreador.

Another thought is to just give each clan 2 disciplines: Brujah Animalism-Presence / Nosferatu Animalism-Obfuscate / Toreador Auspex-Presence / Ventrue Dominate-Presence. Then make the 3 physical disciplines in clan for everyone since everyone seems to agree you don't need a teacher for Celerity Fortitude and Potence anyway, even ghouls can lean them I think.

Have people played with Temporis and find it balanced? I think I am leaning towards the 2 disciplines each plus physical disciplines being in clan but am open to ideas even if people think Celerity Potence Presence is balanced for Brujah, just looking for opinions.

[Schleiermacher]

Another thought is to just give each clan 2 disciplines: Brujah Animalism-Presence / Nosferatu Animalism-Obfuscate / Toreador Auspex-Presence / Ventrue Dominate-Presence. Then make the 3 physical disciplines in clan for everyone since everyone seems to agree you don't need a teacher for Celerity Fortitude and Potence anyway, even ghouls can lean them I think.

This is similar to what I do in my own games. I think it is 100% the best of your options. In the interest of full disclosure though, I also think Temporis is really badly written and was a dubious idea to begin with.

[Vamps Like Us]

I think your right and it's the way I was leaning.

[Leandro16]

I like the idea of two in clan disciplines + 1 one physical of your liking , it adds more customization and even if you wanted to mantain the 3 in-clan disciplines you can give free the merit extra discipline to Player Characters.

Now the big problem with celerity and potence it´s that adding agravated damage means insta-win and the combo discipline "Burning Wrath" makes to easy to attain it for my liking but in my opinion the true problem with WoD game mechanics it´s how the Damage works.Here you can find how i houserule Damage to fix it.

Also if you want to nerf celerity becuase extra actions are a problem you can use requiem version or House rule it.

Now my opinion of Temporis....

At first i loved the discipline becuase fucking Dio , later I started disliking it becuase Temporis feels more like something an elder celerity levels or a devotion/combo discipline should do than a discipline.Also Trujah feel more a edgy group of elders who are cool thanks to a bad time sphere surrogate than a clan or bloodline of vampires with a cool history behind.

Pd:In my games Trujah are True Ventrue (Dominate , Celerity ,Fortitude) the resulting children of Ylles after he diablerized Ventrue with in my games ended very bad.(I do this becuase Ylles or Suketh are blammed from Ventrue death and i like the diablerie idea with all the implication it has in the Jyhad).All about being the true brujah it´s Ventrue propaganda to destroy the brujah clan from inside.

[PazuzuAxelf]

Just change Brujah out for another clan who gets the disciplines you want to use, such as Malkavian. Problem solved.

[Ben Linus]

I like to replace Celerity with Temporis, it's much more thematic for the Brujah and takes away the issue of two physical disciplines, which really is a problem. Contrary to what they say, temporis is a good subject discipline, but it needs proofreading.

Now the other clans have problems, since it is not so evident which discispline to remove and there are not exactly thematic disciplines for them in the scenario (although in Requiem we have the Nightmare).

Thus there might be a need to fragment the presence.

And besides, in the place of which nightmare discipline would it enter? What would be the thematic discipline for Ventrue? And what for Toreador?

I use for Ventrue a discipline focused on manipulating the blood of others, imposing oaths and contracts, provisionally removing disciplines, simulating blood ties and preventing blood ties from becoming stronger or a human being turned into a ghoul.

[Vamps Like Us]

Just change Brujah out for another clan who gets the disciplines you want to use, such as Malkavian. Problem solved.

Malkavians have by far the best clan disciplines (Auspex, Dominate, Obfuscate- no wasted slot on a physical discipline) that once you get a couple dots in each navigating your new vampire life should become easy. Maybe add a couple Fortitude at some point to survive those pesky house fires and such.

I loved them when the game first came out, however they don't fit the arch type the Brujah do and in my personal experience are more disruptive to role playing than they are worth to include. Maybe my experience playing with them over the years has soured me unfairly to the clan but at this point I'm more inclined to believe a clan of severely deranged vampires wouldn't survive to any great degree.

[Vamps Like Us]

I like the idea of two in clan disciplines + 1 one physical of your liking , it adds more customization and even if you wanted to mantain the 3 in-clan disciplines you can give free the merit extra discipline to Player Characters.

Now the big problem with celerity and potence it´s that adding agravated damage means insta-win and the combo discipline "Burning Wrath" makes to easy to attain it for my liking but in my opinion the true problem with WoD game mechanics it´s how the Damage works.Here you can find how i houserule Damage to fix it.

I like this as well for clan Disciplines. Combat is something that always gets house ruled for me. I did buy the DA20 bundle for newer Rules but sticking with the Disciplines I am (No protean for example, level 2 should have always been lethal damage anyway) I don't think it will get out of hand. I like fire and sunlight to do set amounts of aggravated damage and little else other than NPC stuff. I think Assamites have something as well but I wont be using them.

[Ben Linus]

Protean 2 only has a problem because there is a problem in the damage rules. They should be divided and not all converted into more efficient damage, so protean 2 should cause 2 aggravated damage and strength in lethal damage data and the aggravated damage should not be escalated upon lethal damage, it should be completely independent.

[Nyrufa]

I don't like the Brujah having two Physical Disciplines (I see it as a disadvantage) and now that I'm sure I'm going to drop Gangrel I was thinking Animalism was a good fit since Brujah are very close to their beast and it fills the roll of a loaner woodsy type.

Actually, one could argue the Brujah are very close to their humanity. More so than any other clan, because while the other clans gradually lose that spark of life from when they were human, the Brujah never do. They remember what being alive actually feels like, which is more than can be said about those Toreador who have deluded themselves into thinking that emulating the latest fads and social trends has any correlation to being human.

[Ben Linus]

But they do not need to have two physical disciplines for this concept to be in their configuration. So the notion that there is an imbalance in your disciplines (not for the scenario, but for your concept) continues.

[PazuzuAxelf]

Malkavians have by far the best clan disciplines (Auspex, Dominate, Obfuscate- no wasted slot on a physical discipline) that once you get a couple dots in each navigating your new vampire life should become easy. Maybe add a couple Fortitude at some point to survive those pesky house fires and such.

I loved them when the game first came out, however they don't fit the arch type the Brujah do and in my personal experience are more disruptive to role playing than they are worth to include. Maybe my experience playing with them over the years has soured me unfairly to the clan but at this point I'm more inclined to believe a clan of severely deranged vampires wouldn't survive to any great degree.

Man, I totally disagree with your -apparent- thought process and the method you're using to solve your perceived issues.

I don't think I'll be able to help you at all. I'll leave this to others.

[Theodrim]

Second edition Temporis was way, way overpowered, but starting with DA:V they started making more balanced and clarified. Honestly with V20 and DAV20 it's powerful, but risky to use, gaining its balance from the risk-reward ratio.

Brujah discipline spread is fine. The thing you have to remember, is that to get the most mileage out of that discipline spread a player has to make a combat twink character which means they'll end up deficient in other, highly important, areas. Otherwise, they'll end up with a character who is socially or mentally focused, but able to defend themselves in a fight. At the end of the day, a Ventrue, Toreador, or Gangrel combat character is going to beat the stuffing out of a non-combat Brujah regardless, especially if those characters put the other disciplines at their disposal to proper use.

What you have to bear in mind, is combat in cWoD is risky and has potentially serious short- and long-term consequences as it should. If there's one thing a vampire loathes more than anything else, it's a fair fight against a prepared enemy, and Brujah don't have Auspex or Fortitude to counteract, or mitigate, sneak attacks or ambushes. Brujah are actually one of the least Masquerade- and Tradition-friendly clans, and savvy vampires know how to use that against them. Combat twink Brujah characters aren't going to have the social skills to navigate bureaucracy, or deal with inconvenient run-ins with law enforcement. Harassing and browbeating others, as Brujah are so wont to do, might get short-term results but does nothing but generate an ever-growing list of enemies more than happy to ally to take said Brujah out of the picture.

And, most importantly, the Brujah may be an anarchic clan that stresses personal freedom and independence more than anything else, but their tolerance for clanmates' shenanigans go only so far, and they will intervene against a clanmate if things start getting out of hand.

[Nyrufa]

Malkavians have by far the best clan disciplines (Auspex, Dominate, Obfuscate- no wasted slot on a physical discipline) that once you get a couple dots in each navigating your new vampire life should become easy. Maybe add a couple Fortitude at some point to survive those pesky house fires and such.

I loved them when the game first came out, however they don't fit the arch type the Brujah do and in my personal experience are more disruptive to role playing than they are worth to include. Maybe my experience playing with them over the years has soured me unfairly to the clan but at this point I'm more inclined to believe a clan of severely deranged vampires wouldn't survive to any great degree.

You seem to forget that REAL psychopaths are actually highly intelligent and very, very skilled at blending in with normal society.

[Vamps Like Us]

Man, I totally disagree with your -apparent- thought process and the method you're using to solve your perceived issues.

I don't think I'll be able to help you at all. I'll leave this to others.

All good, I've already decided to go with the 2 Disciplines Animalism and Presence with the 3 physical disciplines in clan for all. I was very tempted to go with the suggestion from Leandro to 2+1 physical of choice but it dosen't matter too much in my games. Our campaigns tend to run for years and players who go all out combat and want to play like a D&D dungeon crawl got weeded out long ago.

We haven't actually played Vampire in years but a couple weeks ago or so I found Drivethrurpg and found the thread about post Gehenna. 1 reply made me join to say how much I liked the post and it fit in to my world view. I did get the DA20 bundle as well as the first edition books for updated rules and I bought The first man in Rome and the Grass Crown for inspiration on a DA game down the road. In that I'll probably just use everything but it wont come up for quite awhile.

I'd like to thank everyone for all the suggestions and opinions on Temporis.