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  • Prince's assasination

    Through a convoluted series of events and literally amazing luck of a player he has diablerized the prince of the city. During the morning dawn he walked in and the prince could not stay awake to defend himself.

    The mystery is no one knows really who or why. Another pc who was spying was in the chamber when it happened but also could stay awake. So now the spying pc nosferatu is obviously being blamed for it when the ghouls freak out and find their master's ashes after feeling the pull of their blood supplier's bond vanish.

    Should a justicar get involved? How many archons should show up?

  • #2
    Well, if you want a Justicar/Archon to show up they can. You can hint that the Prince's death has triggered a reaction amoung the higher levels of power in the Camarilla, which should be fun for your diablerist to worry about. Generally speaking a Prince being offed shouldn't cause Justicar involvement unless the city is extremely important or the prince had connections/importance to cause such a reaction. What you can do is have political deadlock follow the assassination. Nobody manages to seize the domain for themselves and a Justicar shows up to get shit in order, or perhaps an Archon to sent to investigate.

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    • #3
      Will vampiric assassins never learn? One small purchase can prevent a world of problems.

      Amateurs! Sheesh.

      Comment


      • #4
        More seriously, Auspex 2 is a super-common ability. It's really hard to get away with diablerie without retreating into seclusion, which will raise suspicions all on it's own.

        Do I recall your chronicle is in LA, and there was a Sabbat siege going on? I would expect some archons at the very least. Likely at least one Justicar. If this were the Prince of Saskatoon, no, but LA is such a powder-keg as it is, this could really throw everything up in the air. Expect the entire sect to be demanding action to stabilize the situation.

        The culprit, when (not if) they are caught, will certainly be considered for the Red List. Might not go on it, but it will be discussed.

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        • #5
          How can the scape goat prove their innocence?

          Yes this is LA, and is pivotal to the Camarilla.

          Would morale break? NPCs ditch town?

          If the sabbat catch wind what would they do with this knowledge?

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          • #6
            If the scape goat surrenders to the archon/justicar, he'll probably be interrogated and they'll possibly find out that he is not related to the crime. BUT if they do find out who the real murderer is and that both characters have connections, they could use the scapegoat to reach the real murderer.

            And when they get the two of them, they'll probably punish both: for murder and for spying on a prince.

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            • #7
              I have a few questions about the facts of the case.

              PC1 went to the Prince's haven near dawn and diablerized the Prince. PC1 then fled, yes?

              A coterie-mate of PC1, a Nosferatu, happened to be spying on the Prince at the time. When the Prince's ghouls felt his bond end, they went to investigate and found both the Prince's remains and the Nosferatu, yes?

              There were no other witnesses to the actual crime, yes?

              Consensus among the authorities... which is who?... is that the Nosferatu was caught red-handed, yes?

              Except the Nosferatu has no diablerie marks, right? Do the authorities suspect diablerie, or just the Prince's murder? Is there any reason the Nosferatu could not make a self-defense claim? Is there any reason the Nosferatu could not say he went there for the purpose of wresting the throne from the Prince?

              Why do they suspect the Nosferatu? Surely an Auspex 3 examination of the room would show the scene of PC1 murdering the Prince as he slept, yes?

              Comment


              • #8
                Would a Justicar or Archon shows up? Depends on the size of the city and/or the relative importance of the slain Prince. Since this is LA, I would say it would make sense for a couple Archons to show up at the very least before a Justicar would get involved (to figure out the cause first).

                How can the scapegoat prove their innocence? Submit themselves to the mercy of the CourtSeneschal, Sheriff, or Primogen (depending who they trust/who takes charge). Try to contact any such Archons that may show up and willing submit to mental investigation (Dominate, Auspex, etc). Removing diablerie stains (especially for extended time) is a tremendous feat. And rigorous mind probing will probably win out in the end.

                Would morale break? To an extent, sure. Kinda depends how quickly the Camarilla reacts to assert itself, but overall sure, it would probably shake some people. A Prince dying is a big deal.
                What would the Sabbat do? Whatever they can to take advantage. Probably step up their activities. Perhaps attempt not only to sow discord, but interfere with the arriving Archons if they have the force to do so.

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                • #9
                  I can't give away any details about the murder because my players are on this site.

                  Every detail you ask is a detail they must confirm or debunk.

                  I already have ideas but am checking the hive mind for things I may pass up. Devil is in the details.

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                  • #10
                    Okay, since they may be lurking, I'm going to do the weird thing and quote myself, so I can follow through on the questions. I promise, this isn't just about monumental ego. Well, maybe a little...

                    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                    I have a few questions about the facts of the case.

                    PC1 went to the Prince's haven near dawn and diablerized the Prince. PC1 then fled, yes?
                    What I'm getting at here is whether PC1 abandoned the Nosferatu, in an attempt to pin it on him. I know, I know, they're both pcs, but in-world the Nosferatu wouldn't know PC1's motivations. This gives the Nosferatu every reason to go state's evidence. A simple Auspex 2 scan would show PC1 committed diablerie, and the Nosferatu didn't. A defense attorney might even argue the Nosferatu overhead PC1 saying he was going to go diablerize the Prince, but, sadly, the Nosferatu got there a little late to warn his Prince. Darn traffic.

                    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                    A coterie-mate of PC1, a Nosferatu, happened to be spying on the Prince at the time. When the Prince's ghouls felt his bond end, they went to investigate and found both the Prince's remains and the Nosferatu, yes?
                    How exactly did the ghouls discover the Nosferatu? Is their Auspex that high? The Prince didn't see the Nosferatu lurking, but the help did? How do the authorities know the ashes are the Prince? Maybe he faked his own death to get out of a city your previous threads have made sound like was sinking like the Titanic, or maybe they are the ashes of a different vampire. I'm just saying: habeas corpus. And who actually found the ashes first? Maybe the ghouls did it, and are trying to pin it on the Nosferatu? The slightest whiff of a brewing ghoul rebellion would galvanize the elders around prosecuting the ghouls.

                    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                    There were no other witnesses to the actual crime, yes?
                    Obviously you can't answer this with the players lurking, but there could, in theory, have been a whole crowd of people with Obfuscate just hanging out there. If you find yourself backed into a corner and want to justify the Nosferatu surviving this, just invent a secret witness.

                    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                    Consensus among the authorities... which is who?... is that the Nosferatu was caught red-handed, yes? Except the Nosferatu has no diablerie marks, right? Do the authorities suspect diablerie, or just the Prince's murder?
                    Who prosecutes this matters. From what you've said before, the Prince's relationship with the Primogen was on shaky ground. If they are tasked with handling this matter, they might just throw the killer a party... unless diablerie comes into the picture, in which case, their own blood might make them targets. If the prosecution is handled by someone personally sympathetic to the Prince, like the Sheriff or the Prince's sire, then expect an aggressive prosecution, and punishment for everyone even loosely connected to the affair. If an outsider, like an Archon or Justicar, shows up, I would expect them to be more concerned with stabilizing the Camarilla's hold over the city. Part of that will be prosecuting the killer, yes, but only as a step toward ferreting out what they likely assume was a Sabbat assassination. If they have a Sabbat vampire to destroy, they'll be happy.

                    Has anyone actually accused the Nosferatu yet? Is it just the ghoul's word v. his? Because, I know modern minds like to think of all testimony as being equal, but many vampires would balk at believing a ghoul over an actual vampire. It's like testimony from a small child. They simply can't understand what they're saying in context. Would a ghoul even know that when vampires are killed, they turn to ash? If I had a ghoul I would never tell them anything about the process of destroying a vampire, for obvious reasons.

                    As ST, play vampire NPCs as very slow to throw around accusations unless they are totally certain. One vampire falsely accusing another of a capital crime is an excellent way to be, at best, shunned from polite society, and, more likely, to meet destruction at the hands of the wrongly accused. Plus, the idea that torturing a witness into telling the truth was wrong is a fairly recent convention. Older vampires may avoid the legal system as a matter of policy.

                    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                    Is there any reason the Nosferatu could not make a self-defense claim? Is there any reason the Nosferatu could not say he went there for the purpose of wresting the throne from the Prince?
                    The self-defense claim is self-explanatory.

                    Going there to unseat the Prince is... more complicated. Historically, there were several ways to become a Head of State.

                    The most compelling way was by Right of Conquest. For one thing, if you managed to conquer a kingdom, what were the odds someone else could easily unseat you, even if they disagreed with the process? But, this also showed God's Will! If the Almighty didn't desire that PC1 and Nosferatu should be the rightful Co-Princes of Los Angeles, then surely He would have prevented their conquest.

                    I know this sounds like insane reasoning to a modern mind, but the Camarilla isn't composed of modern minds. Besides, it worked for William I in 1066, Henry VII at Bosworth Field, and, in much more recent times. Note from the more recent examples, that there can be much controversy over the antecedents to the conquest, and there are many possible results. These can range from the installation of a puppet government to full integration into the invading state.

                    In any case, once the dust settles, the winner of a conflict generally gets to arrange the post-bellum status quo. Do you, as ST, want your PCs as Prince? Now would be the logical time.

                    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                    Why do they suspect the Nosferatu? Surely an Auspex 3 examination of the room would show the scene of PC1 murdering the Prince as he slept, yes?
                    This one is pretty self-explanatory. One of the reasons the Camarilla doesn't have a judicial branch is that disciplines make establishing the facts of a case much simpler.

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                    • #11
                      The Noseferatu violated the tradition of Domain, broke into the Prince's haven, was found sleeping next to his ashes and should plead self-defence? The Prince would be completely within his rights to attack anyone who broke into his haven. Also, Unless the Prince himself has declared it to be so in his city, lethal self-defence is not a thing. Slaying other Kindred is governed solely by the sixth tradition.

                      If anyone in power actually cares about what happened, the Nos will be interrogated and Dominated. Depending on what the Nos actually knows (i.e. when he/she fell asleep), the diablerist will be brought in, subjected to Auspex 2 and swiftly executed. If the Prince had a lot of enemies who don't wish to look a gift horse too deep in the mouth, the Nos is executed and the case is closed.

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                      • #12
                        Nosimplehiway I kind of have to question, can one even make a self-defense case against the Prince?
                        The Sixth Tradition: Destruction
                        Thou art forbidden to destroy another of thy kind.
                        The right of destruction belongeth only to thine Elder.
                        Only the Eldest among thee shall call the Blood Hunt.
                        Nothing about it makes an exception.
                        Without a power faction or backer to ensure the Nosferatu isn't railroaded, I don't see it going anywhere. Your idea isn't without merit. However, typically people making a claim by conquest have the power to back that claim.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
                          Nosimplehiway I kind of have to question, can one even make a self-defense case against the Prince?

                          Nothing about it makes an exception.
                          I would imagine that "self-defense" is an unwritten exception. The Camarilla's traditions have been open to interpretation since forever, usually to whichever interpretation is most convenient for local Kindred at the time. We can't really count on exact wording here, when even the residents of the setting don't.

                          I'm just saying it would be pretty weird for Kindred society as a whole to lump Self Defense into the same category as Murder. If for no other reason than because Elders love goading rivals into attacking them, so they can destroy them and come out looking like the innocent party. On the flipside, Kindred basically everywhere would start getting pissed off if they got slapped with a Blood Hunt just for defending themselves. While the Camarilla is autocratic and based on personal power, there is still the base assumption of SOME kind of Social Contract. And part of every social contract is the assumption that the law works for the benefit of those who play along with the orderly society, and not against them, or for the people who cause trouble. Even prehistoric societies understood this, so it can be assumed that Kindred ones do, as well.


                          The real difficulty I see for the Nosferatu is in proving self-defense, not in the concept itself. Would other Kindred believe him when he said that? Moreover, we know that if he claimed self-defense, he would be lying. Someone else killed the Prince, and the Nos was just a bystander. If he tried to claim self-defense, those with Auspex and/or Dominate may key in to the fact that he's lying, which would look bad for him.

                          Then again, if anyone has either Discipline high enough, they could just probe his mind or memories, and find out the truth that way. Given his being a suspect in murder, I imagine he'd be in no position to refuse such a probe, assuming they even gave him a choice. Hell, the Nosferatu might be better off inviting elders to probe him, in order to prove his innocence. Granted, even memories can be faked, so it's not perfect evidence. But if he was caught immediately after the Prince's death, he wouldn't have had time to have some other Kindred erase or modify his memories. Nor could he rely on members of his own Clan, since Dominate is not native to Nosferatu.

                          All of this not even getting into Thaumaturgical methods of proving the Nosferatu's innocence. The Bone of Truth would tell the court if the Nos was lying, and elementary Thaum could tell if he'd committed Diablerie. Then again, so could Auspex 2, bringing it around again to that.


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                            I would imagine that "self-defense" is an unwritten exception. The Camarilla's traditions have been open to interpretation since forever, usually to whichever interpretation is most convenient for local Kindred at the time. We can't really count on exact wording here, when even the residents of the setting don't.

                            I'm just saying it would be pretty weird for Kindred society as a whole to lump Self Defense into the same category as Murder. If for no other reason than because Elders love goading rivals into attacking them, so they can destroy them and come out looking like the innocent party. On the flipside, Kindred basically everywhere would start getting pissed off if they got slapped with a Blood Hunt just for defending themselves. While the Camarilla is autocratic and based on personal power, there is still the base assumption of SOME kind of Social Contract. And part of every social contract is the assumption that the law works for the benefit of those who play along with the orderly society, and not against them, or for the people who cause trouble. Even prehistoric societies understood this, so it can be assumed that Kindred ones do, as well.
                            Well I think your second sentence hits the point I was trying to make. Part of the distinction to me in this situation is that this was the Prince of L.A. and this was (at least from what it seemed) not a Nosferatu of significant power or significant political standing. I don't think the Camarilla would play fair with a self-defense justification. While abuse of the Prince/underling relationship has consequences as you say, this is a slain Prince of a major city without clear extenuating circumstances. This isn't a Primogen goading a well liked Harpy into attacking them in Elysium. Certainly not an abuse like what happens to Jeremy MacNeil.

                            But yeah, the truth would come out regardless if he was being held by the Camarilla.



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                            • #15
                              In the canon history of LA, when Prince Sebastian is diablerized, presumably by Salvador GarcĂ­a, the Justicar Don Alonso Cristo Petrodon de Sevilla get involved quickly.

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