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  • Inferalism in the Camarilla

    So, I wasn't sure on a matter. I am aware there are Camarilla officials called Josians or something that hunt infernalists. But I was having a harder time finding broader information. Is inferalism officially illegal in the Camarilla? Might there be Princes in some cities that allow it? It was a less clear cut thing to me than in the Sabbat.

  • #2
    As I recall from V20 material, infernalism is universally reviled. The Josians are Archons focused on the destruction of the infernal. Like the Sabbat, infernalism is always to be eradicated, the difference is like the difference concerning Antediluvians: the Camarilla doesn't want to say aloud officially that it exists. Dread Names: Red List has more details, as well as the infernalism section of Rites of the Blood, but that's what comes to mind without the books at my side at this moment. Infernalism is one of the few things that just about everyone agrees upon. The Baali Wars helped solidify that position, and the only Sect to take in Baali (specifically Molochim) is the TBH after extreme vetting and under careful attention. Infernalism is the universal anethama.

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    • #3
      Well, the clan which is far and away most likely to deal with the infernal are the Tremere, simply because other Camarilla tend to lack the occult resources to summon a demon. The Tremere, internally, have a rule against infernalism. This has had mixed efficacy, but mostly infernalism is highly frowned upon.

      Other than that, I am not aware of the Canarilla having a blanket rule regarding infernalism.

      It's possible the reason there seems to be less infernalism, even with little obvious effort, in the Camarilla is a combination of factors.

      The Camarilla is theoretically live-and-let-live, but has a definite FIFO aspect to it's society. You're allowed to be strange as long as you fit your clan's acceptable type of strange, but go too far, and there will be problems. If either your primogen or your prince decide you are too strange, there will be problems. This may mean that the sort of deviant-sociopath who seeks demons just doesn't survive in the sect for other reasons.

      The sect has a strong emphasis on following Humanity, so any behavior which smacks of highly alternative moralities would be quickly squelched. Oh, some Malks might have a human taxidermy collection, and some Nosferatu can do Freddy Kreuger LARPing on the weekends, but if anything --at all-- makes the papers, they will greet the sun.

      Alternative spiritualities are similarly stigmatized. Between Kupala and the Abyss, it must be difficult for the Sabbat Inquisition to come up with a working definition of what is prohibited that can be universally applied. The Camarilla only has to deal with the basic religions and spiritualities available to humans, by and large.

      Camarilla vampires tend to lead a less communal existence than the Sabbat, so if an individual vampire is seduced by a demon, they are less likely to be able to spread it to their associates. Once a coterie member gets too Lovecraftian, most coteries will just stop returning their phone calls. There's no vinculum to bind them to the infernalist.

      It could also just be that the Josians are very good at their jobs, or at least the sect structure makes their jobs easier. Several clans in the Camarilla seem built for being good investigators of one sort or another, including the Tremere, Toreador, Malks, and Nosferatu. Also, the Sabbat has a culture in which accusing someone of something could easily lead to monomacy. This means the most active Inquisition members spend a significant amount of their time simply defending their un-lives from persons of interest who take umbrage at the implication of suspicion. In the Camarilla, the sheriff and harpy are not only allowed to constantly assess others' behavior, it is pretty much their job description.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
        So, I wasn't sure on a matter. I am aware there are Camarilla officials called Josians or something that hunt infernalists. But I was having a harder time finding broader information. Is inferalism officially illegal in the Camarilla? Might there be Princes in some cities that allow it? It was a less clear cut thing to me than in the Sabbat.

        The camarilla is even more hardcore with Josians. Josians can declare members of the Camarilla "Profane" its basically like being on the Redlist lite. Unversal bloodhunt. THey can and have declared this on whole domains that were wiped out.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Lian View Post
          Josians can declare members of the Camarilla "Profane" its basically like being on the Redlist lite.
          So instead of the Red List you'll end up on the Pink Slip prior to being fired from the Camarilla and unlife at large?

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          • #6
            Infernalism is illegal within the Camarilla. Josians are specialized Archons tasked with hunting down infernal vampires, and as mentioned above they have the ability to declare a vampire Profane, stripping them of all status and placing them under a permanent Blood Hunt.

            V20 Rites of Blood
            A Josian nominally has the authority to put an entire domain in lockdown, though to do so would certainly be pressing her luck. It is also within her authority to decree that all Kindred within that domain are now Profane. Profane vampires may not hold status or position, are stripped of all boons owed to them, and may be destroyed outside of the Traditions as though a Blood Hunt had been called upon them. If any vampire with the Profane status immediately presents himself to the Justicars (or any Archon), he can be proven innocent, shrived, and their status restored. However, no one knows of an instance when this authority was enacted, and some Kindred even doubt the validity of such a heavy-handed policy. And yet, the Inner Circle has never refuted the Josians’ claim to this level of authority.
            V20 Dread Names Red List pg 112
            Though profane vampires have existed long before the Camarilla was formed, the Inner Circle did not deem the threat that infernalists posed to the organization to be as serious as the dangers the Sabbat posed until the eighteenth or nineteenth centuries. To hunt demonologists, thralls, and diabolists, Archons were named to the rank of Josian and trained to eliminate this threat.

            Together with their servires, Josians track down the profane to deliver their judgment of Final Death and interrogate Kindred who are suspected of infernalism. While every infernalist may be hunted by a ranking member of the Camarilla, not every profane vampire is named Anathema. When an infernalist is present on the Red List, like Dylan Bruce, consider adding the Josians in either a direct or indirect fashion to deepen your chronicle.

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            • #7
              Thanks for the information. It seems Rites of the Blood has most of what I was looking for.
              "Although the Camarilla Traditions do not explicitly forbid infernalism, the Inner Circle's record is clear."
              Much appreciated for pointing me there.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
                So, I wasn't sure on a matter. I am aware there are Camarilla officials called Josians or something that hunt infernalists. But I was having a harder time finding broader information. Is inferalism officially illegal in the Camarilla? Might there be Princes in some cities that allow it? It was a less clear cut thing to me than in the Sabbat.
                Petaniqua, Dylan Bruce and Valerius Maior were Camarilla characters at some point of their history and famous infernalist, most wanted members of the Red List. I would recommend you to search something about them.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                  Well, the clan which is far and away most likely to deal with the infernal are the Tremere, simply because other Camarilla tend to lack the occult resources to summon a demon. The Tremere, internally, have a rule against infernalism.
                  They also jave a rule against interacting with spirits, ghosts, fey, mages, etc, but that only applies if they get caught doing something harmful to the Clan.

                  Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                  The Camarilla is theoretically live-and-let-live, but has a definite FIFO aspect to it's society
                  Live and let live they are absolutely not.

                  Originally posted by SandCarlyle View Post
                  As I recall from V20 material, infernalism is universally reviled. The Josians are Archons focused on the destruction of the infernal. Like the Sabbat, infernalism is always to be eradicated, the difference is like the difference concerning Antediluvians: the Camarilla doesn't want to say aloud officially that it exists.
                  It is not that the Camarilla does not want to admit that Caine or the Antideluvians exist(ed), as much as that history and lore are not their focus. Keeping vampires hidden from mortals is. Some among the Camarilla do believe, some do not, and some are unsure. In fact, it os more likely that much more of the elders, Inner Circle, founders, and highest ranking DO believe, either because they have personally met members of the 4th-6th Gen, Kindred who have personally met Antideluvians, where raised on the lore as factual, if not actually met two or three Antideluvians, (Giovanni, Tremere, and possibly even Cappadocius).

                  The thing is, the Camarilla is there to keep power and keep things running smoothly. Extremists of Noddist lore can be very harmful and lead Kindred to break or defy the Traditions, thinking the end is nigh. Individuals, like Jan Pietersoon are outright against Noddist lore, and many within the Camarilla are against others trying to use it when it contradicts their plans.

                  About infernalism, it is a very destructive and corrupting force that allows an individual or group access to powers and information that undermines the Elders and Camarilla. It's practice brings down Domains and enslaves mortals and Cainites, destroys loyalties. All of the great Cainite ends of an era, (Baali Wars, Carthage, Rome...), have Infernalism directly linked. Sort of out of game, Infernalism is also one of those things that is intentionally universally reviled, beyond Clan, Sect, or religious boarders, but also impossible to stamp out.


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                  • #10
                    I don't recall the Tremere having a rule about spirits or ghosts? I mean, path of spirits is uncommon but sanctioned, and there's a small organization of minor necromancer in the clan. Their stance on infernalism is pretty serious last I checked, since Tremere who use it are almost certainly going to harm the clan, and it bypasses normal access controls on Thaumaturgical lore.

                    But I agree that Infernalism is an Evil among evils. It blackens your soul and warps your personality to the point that all you can do is self destruct and catch a ton of people in the blast.

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                    • #11
                      I forgot something when I first read this thread, which I just remembered when Beckett mentioned "spirits, ghosts, fey, mages, etc.": the problem of definition of terms.

                      Okay, so, we all have the luxury of zipping over to DriveThruRpg to buy the books. We can read the line on the character sheet where it lists the splat. The characters, in-world, don't have that option. If the Camarilla, or anyone for that matter, is going to seek out and prosecute Infernalists, then what exactly is it they are looking for? What is the working definition, in-world, that allows them to define the crime and differentiate it from similar, edge cases?

                      Some examples:

                      A Tremere uses Thaumaturgy to contact a "spirit" (whatever that means) who is big and scary, or whimsical and pleasant, who... in the course of conversation about other things... gives her advice about a new Path she's working on. Does this make it Dark Thaumaturgy? Whatif the tutor self-identifies as a demon, and has made teaching agreements in the past, but in this instance just genuinely likes the Tremere and notices she is doing it wrong. Is this Infernalism in the eyes of the Camarilla?

                      A Ravnos elder uses advanced Chimerstry to speak with a member of the Asura who helps him figure out some difficult problem. (It's complicated, but the Asura are Hindu "demons"... except that Western term doesn't really work very well. They are sentient beings with complex motivations. They tend to be less benevolent than the Devas, but not irredeemably evil.) So, the Ravnos elder learns from a demon who doesn't actually exist, except... well, umm, elder Chimerstry. Is this Infernalism in the eyes of the Camarilla?

                      Fun complication related to the Asura, they have internal divisions, and the more "evil" of them are called the "Danava". A Danava of the Jati might move to Europe and continue to proclaim himself as having allegiance to the Asura... indeed may reasonably claim to be a demon, in the Hindu sense. Sadhana could certainly look like demonic ritual to some people who don't get out much. Is this Infernalism in the eyes of the Camarilla?

                      A Ventrue discovers a new power player in town. This guy owns a large casino and has deep ties to organized crime. He also claims to be a demon. Now, the Ventrue has his doubts. Criminal gangs are notoriously superstitious, and he figures they "demon" is just building a power myth. The guy has an entirely mundane background check, though he does exhibit some magical abilities. Remember, nobody has access to character sheets, so they don't know whether he is a mage, demon, or whatever. The Ventrue believes him to be a deluded hedge mage, and goes into business with him. As their friendship develops, the "demon" helps the Ventrue learn Auspex 1. Is this Infernalism in the eyes of the Camarilla?

                      A lonely teenager becomes obsessed with using a Ouija board to contact "demons". After a few years of black eye-shadow and becoming a locally popular death-metal musician, a well-known Toreador decides to embrace him. As a fledgling, the youth spontaneously develops the Spirit Mentor merit and the flaw Repelled by Crosses. Local Tremere have used Spirit Thaumaturgy and claim to have not detected the "demon", and dismiss the whole thing as an affectation, though the demon could have just been hiding well. Some vampires with Auspex have sensed weird happenings around the musician. Is this Infernalism in the eyes of the Camarilla?

                      A disturbed Brujah declares he wants to use demons to fight the Sabbat. He forms a small cult, though he is very mindful of the Masquerade. He is trying to learn about demons and the occult, hoping to harness their power in the fight against his enemies. Everyone... everyone... agrees he is too dumb to summon a pizza with a telephone and a coupon. But, the intent is there, and who knows... he might get lucky. Is this Infernalism in the eyes of the Camarilla?

                      A Malkavian claims she hears demonic voices which tell her to do things, and sometimes gives her useful advice. The local vampires chalk this up to her Malk heritage. She sometimes seems to have knowledge of things she could not possibly know, but, then again, that's what passes for normal in her clan. Is this Infernalism in the eyes of the Camarilla?

                      A Gangrel from Romania entered torpor in Transylvania, sleeping in the soil for centuries. She has been loyal to the Camarilla since her emergence, fighting the Sabbat with gusto, but often speaks darkly of venerating "the spirit of her homeland" as her main spiritual belief system. When pressed she says the spirit has many names, but she usually calls it "Grandmother Thunder". She has built a herd among local pagans, who show no particular aptitude for true magick. She knows Viissitude 1 and Spiritus 2, but then sect lines were blurrier when she entered torpor. Is this Infernalism in the eyes of the Camarilla?

                      A necromaner works closely with something he calls a Spectre. The necromancer does errands for the spectre sometimes, like burning down a vacant building or murdering a seemingly random person. In exchange, it teaches him stuff... mostly practical skills, but some rituals, too. Is this Infernalism in the eyes of the Camarilla?


                      So, anybody want to take a crack at writing a working definition of "Infernalism" that would work within the context of what the Camarilla actually knows in-world?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                        They also jave a rule against interacting with spirits, ghosts, fey, mages, etc, but that only applies if they get caught doing something harmful to the Clan.
                        .
                        No here's what it says

                        I will not endanger House and Clan Tremere through my actions. Nor will I interfere
                        with the affairs of mundanes in any way that brings ruin upon my House and Clan. I will
                        not, when dealing with devils, or others, in any way bring danger to the clan, nor will I
                        disturb the faeries in any way that should cause them to take vengeance on the House
                        and Clan

                        You are putting emphasis backwards the rule is entirely on not getting things mad at the Tremere. As everything hates Tremere this is the most broken rule ever

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                        • #13
                          As with so many things in vampire, the iffy cases are decided by politics. Is the iffy person valuable to the Prince? Ah, well, that's clearly not infernalism because blah blah blah. Is the iffy person someone valuable to someone the Prince doesn't like? Zero tolerance! This monster must be made an example of!

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Lian View Post
                            No here's what it says

                            I will not endanger House and Clan Tremere through my actions. Nor will I interfere
                            with the affairs of mundanes in any way that brings ruin upon my House and Clan. I will
                            not, when dealing with devils, or others, in any way bring danger to the clan, nor will I
                            disturb the faeries in any way that should cause them to take vengeance on the House
                            and Clan

                            You are putting emphasis backwards the rule is entirely on not getting things mad at the Tremere. As everything hates Tremere this is the most broken rule ever
                            That's probably the goal of this rule. The Tremere *already* have enough enemies, from stuff they did many centuries ago to the Salubri, Tzimisce, Gangrel and Nosferatu. The last thing they need is to go around making *new* enemies.



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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ian Turner View Post

                              That's probably the goal of this rule. The Tremere *already* have enough enemies, from stuff they did many centuries ago to the Salubri, Tzimisce, Gangrel and Nosferatu. The last thing they need is to go around making *new* enemies.



                              The Oath of Tremere predates all of that, its word for word the same as The Oath of Hermes back when they were Hermetics.

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