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Inferalism in the Camarilla

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  • #16
    Well, in the book named House Tremere of Dark Ages, Etrius tries infernalism short before Goratrix comes with the "vampiric solution" to the dead of magic.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
      As with so many things in vampire, the iffy cases are decided by politics. Is the iffy person valuable to the Prince? Ah, well, that's clearly not infernalism because blah blah blah. Is the iffy person someone valuable to someone the Prince doesn't like? Zero tolerance! This monster must be made an example of!
      I had a long response typed up, but pretty much this. If you are really dedicated I think you can cleave real Infernalism from the fake, and I think the Camarilla is interested in that to a certain degree because Infernalism is so inherently dangerous. But is a Prince so interested in it that they're willing to throw their favorite pawn to inquisitors? Are the Tremere above using their abilities to sniff out Infernalism as a political tool? Probably no, and no. Of course shielding an infernalist is much like shielding a diablerist. At some point it will no longer be worth their hit to your reputation, justified or not.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
        I forgot something when I first read this thread, which I just remembered when Beckett mentioned "spirits, ghosts, fey, mages, etc.": the problem of definition of terms.

        Some examples:

        A Tremere ... A Ravnos ... A Ventrue ... etc
        The answer is purely down to the Josian's decision on investigation; their tolerance, occult score and previous bias.

        And Occult in general is probably the best determination, with Occult 4-5 you can probably seek out the little subtle clues that will tell the difference.

        Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
        A necromancer works closely with something he calls a Spectre. The necromancer does errands for the spectre sometimes, like burning down a vacant building or murdering a seemingly random person. In exchange, it teaches him stuff... mostly practical skills, but some rituals, too. Is this Infernalism in the eyes of the Camarilla?


        So, anybody want to take a crack at writing a working definition of "Infernalism" that would work within the context of what the Camarilla actually knows in-world?
        Refer it to the Giovanni, let them make the determination.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
          Also, the Sabbat has a culture in which accusing someone of something could easily lead to monomacy. This means the most active Inquisition members spend a significant amount of their time simply defending their un-lives from persons of interest who take umbrage at the implication of suspicion.
          That's not my impression of how the Sabbat Inquisition works at all. By the time they're ready to openly investigate someone, it's as a group of five Inquisitors acting on the authority of the Regent with the nominal support of nearby packs, and they've been able to depose and execute archbishops of major Sabbat cities (Exhibit A: Montreal) when necessary. The way Sabbat vampires react to the Inquisition formally rolling into town is similar to how Camarilla members react to a Justicar showing up with Archons in tow and declaring a conclave. I'd imagine antagonizing individual members of it for personal reasons, while not expressly forbidden, is generally considered unwise for fear of having one's activities looked over with a fine tooth comb for any signs of diabolism or other heresy.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
            Also, the Sabbat has a culture in which accusing someone of something could easily lead to monomacy. This means the most active Inquisition members spend a significant amount of their time simply defending their un-lives from persons of interest who take umbrage at the implication of suspicion.
            I didn't see this before, but I have to agree with Matt. Not only is it within the general authority of the Code of Milan to investigate other Sabbat members, it is the express purview of the Sabbat Inquisition to investigate Infernalism and matters of heresy within the Sect.
            The Inquisition's power originates from two articles of the Code of milan, namely the fourteenth and the sixteenth (V20, p. 41). As the permanent "accepted means" for dealing with such matters, the Inquisition is granted the right to take action against infernalists and heretics. Inquisition personnel may detain or destroy at will, so long as they can prove the subject's guilt.

            Most members of the Sect fear and despise them for the power they wield.
            V20 Rites of the Blood p121
            Inquisitors routinely travel through Sabbat-held territories, often presiding over rites or assisting with Sect punishments. They have the leeway to look at any Cainite's dealings for proof of ideological deviance that may be a threat to the Sect, and they wield that authority with a heavy hand.

            The Inquisition has unprecedented power to accuse, interrogate, and judge cases of heresy and infernalism. An Inquisitor may accuse any member of the Sabbat save the Regent, and may take anyone thus accused into custody. The individual's priest may be present to witness interrogation, trial, and destruction, and may advocate on their packmate's behalf.

            The accused can request an ordeal as proof of innocence, or some form of contrition if the charges are purely heretical and do not include infernalism. However, an Inquisitor has no duty to grant such a request. The illusion of impartial justice is important, but it is rare that an Inquisitor brings a Sect member to trial unless she is certain something will be found.
            p123, 124
            XIV. All Sabbat have the right to monitor the behavior and activities of their fellow Sect members in order to maintain freedom and security.
            XVI. All Sabbat shall act against Sect members who use the powers and authority the Sabbat has given them for personal gain at the expense of the Sabbat. Action shall be taken only through accepted means, approved by a quorum of Prisci.
            Typically an Inquisition pack will roll in five deep. We have to assume it is even possible to challenge an Inquisitor for doing their job. Then, even looking at the rite of Monomancy, a cross-pack challenge is typically arbitrated by the local Bishop, Archbishop, and higher as things demand. I have a hard time seeing them entertaining the idea either, lest they fall under investigation as well. The arbiter can outright claim a challenge in inappropriate. And if the challenged party has significantly more status (more than two, and an Inquisitor is a 3 dot title and a typical ductus just 1 dot) then the challenged can deny without losing status. Or they can deny and just lose status.

            Point being, I find it more likely that a challenge against an Inquisitor is going to work severely against someone, rather than in their favor.

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