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  • Monalfie
    started a topic Inferalism in the Camarilla

    Inferalism in the Camarilla

    So, I wasn't sure on a matter. I am aware there are Camarilla officials called Josians or something that hunt infernalists. But I was having a harder time finding broader information. Is inferalism officially illegal in the Camarilla? Might there be Princes in some cities that allow it? It was a less clear cut thing to me than in the Sabbat.

  • Monalfie
    replied
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    Also, the Sabbat has a culture in which accusing someone of something could easily lead to monomacy. This means the most active Inquisition members spend a significant amount of their time simply defending their un-lives from persons of interest who take umbrage at the implication of suspicion.
    I didn't see this before, but I have to agree with Matt. Not only is it within the general authority of the Code of Milan to investigate other Sabbat members, it is the express purview of the Sabbat Inquisition to investigate Infernalism and matters of heresy within the Sect.
    The Inquisition's power originates from two articles of the Code of milan, namely the fourteenth and the sixteenth (V20, p. 41). As the permanent "accepted means" for dealing with such matters, the Inquisition is granted the right to take action against infernalists and heretics. Inquisition personnel may detain or destroy at will, so long as they can prove the subject's guilt.

    Most members of the Sect fear and despise them for the power they wield.
    V20 Rites of the Blood p121
    Inquisitors routinely travel through Sabbat-held territories, often presiding over rites or assisting with Sect punishments. They have the leeway to look at any Cainite's dealings for proof of ideological deviance that may be a threat to the Sect, and they wield that authority with a heavy hand.

    The Inquisition has unprecedented power to accuse, interrogate, and judge cases of heresy and infernalism. An Inquisitor may accuse any member of the Sabbat save the Regent, and may take anyone thus accused into custody. The individual's priest may be present to witness interrogation, trial, and destruction, and may advocate on their packmate's behalf.

    The accused can request an ordeal as proof of innocence, or some form of contrition if the charges are purely heretical and do not include infernalism. However, an Inquisitor has no duty to grant such a request. The illusion of impartial justice is important, but it is rare that an Inquisitor brings a Sect member to trial unless she is certain something will be found.
    p123, 124
    XIV. All Sabbat have the right to monitor the behavior and activities of their fellow Sect members in order to maintain freedom and security.
    XVI. All Sabbat shall act against Sect members who use the powers and authority the Sabbat has given them for personal gain at the expense of the Sabbat. Action shall be taken only through accepted means, approved by a quorum of Prisci.
    Typically an Inquisition pack will roll in five deep. We have to assume it is even possible to challenge an Inquisitor for doing their job. Then, even looking at the rite of Monomancy, a cross-pack challenge is typically arbitrated by the local Bishop, Archbishop, and higher as things demand. I have a hard time seeing them entertaining the idea either, lest they fall under investigation as well. The arbiter can outright claim a challenge in inappropriate. And if the challenged party has significantly more status (more than two, and an Inquisitor is a 3 dot title and a typical ductus just 1 dot) then the challenged can deny without losing status. Or they can deny and just lose status.

    Point being, I find it more likely that a challenge against an Inquisitor is going to work severely against someone, rather than in their favor.

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  • Matt the Bruins fan
    replied
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    Also, the Sabbat has a culture in which accusing someone of something could easily lead to monomacy. This means the most active Inquisition members spend a significant amount of their time simply defending their un-lives from persons of interest who take umbrage at the implication of suspicion.
    That's not my impression of how the Sabbat Inquisition works at all. By the time they're ready to openly investigate someone, it's as a group of five Inquisitors acting on the authority of the Regent with the nominal support of nearby packs, and they've been able to depose and execute archbishops of major Sabbat cities (Exhibit A: Montreal) when necessary. The way Sabbat vampires react to the Inquisition formally rolling into town is similar to how Camarilla members react to a Justicar showing up with Archons in tow and declaring a conclave. I'd imagine antagonizing individual members of it for personal reasons, while not expressly forbidden, is generally considered unwise for fear of having one's activities looked over with a fine tooth comb for any signs of diabolism or other heresy.

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  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    I forgot something when I first read this thread, which I just remembered when Beckett mentioned "spirits, ghosts, fey, mages, etc.": the problem of definition of terms.

    Some examples:

    A Tremere ... A Ravnos ... A Ventrue ... etc
    The answer is purely down to the Josian's decision on investigation; their tolerance, occult score and previous bias.

    And Occult in general is probably the best determination, with Occult 4-5 you can probably seek out the little subtle clues that will tell the difference.

    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    A necromancer works closely with something he calls a Spectre. The necromancer does errands for the spectre sometimes, like burning down a vacant building or murdering a seemingly random person. In exchange, it teaches him stuff... mostly practical skills, but some rituals, too. Is this Infernalism in the eyes of the Camarilla?


    So, anybody want to take a crack at writing a working definition of "Infernalism" that would work within the context of what the Camarilla actually knows in-world?
    Refer it to the Giovanni, let them make the determination.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zanos
    replied
    Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
    As with so many things in vampire, the iffy cases are decided by politics. Is the iffy person valuable to the Prince? Ah, well, that's clearly not infernalism because blah blah blah. Is the iffy person someone valuable to someone the Prince doesn't like? Zero tolerance! This monster must be made an example of!
    I had a long response typed up, but pretty much this. If you are really dedicated I think you can cleave real Infernalism from the fake, and I think the Camarilla is interested in that to a certain degree because Infernalism is so inherently dangerous. But is a Prince so interested in it that they're willing to throw their favorite pawn to inquisitors? Are the Tremere above using their abilities to sniff out Infernalism as a political tool? Probably no, and no. Of course shielding an infernalist is much like shielding a diablerist. At some point it will no longer be worth their hit to your reputation, justified or not.

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  • Justycar
    replied
    Well, in the book named House Tremere of Dark Ages, Etrius tries infernalism short before Goratrix comes with the "vampiric solution" to the dead of magic.

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Ian Turner View Post

    That's probably the goal of this rule. The Tremere *already* have enough enemies, from stuff they did many centuries ago to the Salubri, Tzimisce, Gangrel and Nosferatu. The last thing they need is to go around making *new* enemies.



    The Oath of Tremere predates all of that, its word for word the same as The Oath of Hermes back when they were Hermetics.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ian Turner
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    No here's what it says

    I will not endanger House and Clan Tremere through my actions. Nor will I interfere
    with the affairs of mundanes in any way that brings ruin upon my House and Clan. I will
    not, when dealing with devils, or others, in any way bring danger to the clan, nor will I
    disturb the faeries in any way that should cause them to take vengeance on the House
    and Clan

    You are putting emphasis backwards the rule is entirely on not getting things mad at the Tremere. As everything hates Tremere this is the most broken rule ever
    That's probably the goal of this rule. The Tremere *already* have enough enemies, from stuff they did many centuries ago to the Salubri, Tzimisce, Gangrel and Nosferatu. The last thing they need is to go around making *new* enemies.



    Leave a comment:


  • CajunKhan
    replied
    As with so many things in vampire, the iffy cases are decided by politics. Is the iffy person valuable to the Prince? Ah, well, that's clearly not infernalism because blah blah blah. Is the iffy person someone valuable to someone the Prince doesn't like? Zero tolerance! This monster must be made an example of!

    Leave a comment:


  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Beckett View Post
    They also jave a rule against interacting with spirits, ghosts, fey, mages, etc, but that only applies if they get caught doing something harmful to the Clan.
    .
    No here's what it says

    I will not endanger House and Clan Tremere through my actions. Nor will I interfere
    with the affairs of mundanes in any way that brings ruin upon my House and Clan. I will
    not, when dealing with devils, or others, in any way bring danger to the clan, nor will I
    disturb the faeries in any way that should cause them to take vengeance on the House
    and Clan

    You are putting emphasis backwards the rule is entirely on not getting things mad at the Tremere. As everything hates Tremere this is the most broken rule ever

    Leave a comment:


  • Nosimplehiway
    replied
    I forgot something when I first read this thread, which I just remembered when Beckett mentioned "spirits, ghosts, fey, mages, etc.": the problem of definition of terms.

    Okay, so, we all have the luxury of zipping over to DriveThruRpg to buy the books. We can read the line on the character sheet where it lists the splat. The characters, in-world, don't have that option. If the Camarilla, or anyone for that matter, is going to seek out and prosecute Infernalists, then what exactly is it they are looking for? What is the working definition, in-world, that allows them to define the crime and differentiate it from similar, edge cases?

    Some examples:

    A Tremere uses Thaumaturgy to contact a "spirit" (whatever that means) who is big and scary, or whimsical and pleasant, who... in the course of conversation about other things... gives her advice about a new Path she's working on. Does this make it Dark Thaumaturgy? Whatif the tutor self-identifies as a demon, and has made teaching agreements in the past, but in this instance just genuinely likes the Tremere and notices she is doing it wrong. Is this Infernalism in the eyes of the Camarilla?

    A Ravnos elder uses advanced Chimerstry to speak with a member of the Asura who helps him figure out some difficult problem. (It's complicated, but the Asura are Hindu "demons"... except that Western term doesn't really work very well. They are sentient beings with complex motivations. They tend to be less benevolent than the Devas, but not irredeemably evil.) So, the Ravnos elder learns from a demon who doesn't actually exist, except... well, umm, elder Chimerstry. Is this Infernalism in the eyes of the Camarilla?

    Fun complication related to the Asura, they have internal divisions, and the more "evil" of them are called the "Danava". A Danava of the Jati might move to Europe and continue to proclaim himself as having allegiance to the Asura... indeed may reasonably claim to be a demon, in the Hindu sense. Sadhana could certainly look like demonic ritual to some people who don't get out much. Is this Infernalism in the eyes of the Camarilla?

    A Ventrue discovers a new power player in town. This guy owns a large casino and has deep ties to organized crime. He also claims to be a demon. Now, the Ventrue has his doubts. Criminal gangs are notoriously superstitious, and he figures they "demon" is just building a power myth. The guy has an entirely mundane background check, though he does exhibit some magical abilities. Remember, nobody has access to character sheets, so they don't know whether he is a mage, demon, or whatever. The Ventrue believes him to be a deluded hedge mage, and goes into business with him. As their friendship develops, the "demon" helps the Ventrue learn Auspex 1. Is this Infernalism in the eyes of the Camarilla?

    A lonely teenager becomes obsessed with using a Ouija board to contact "demons". After a few years of black eye-shadow and becoming a locally popular death-metal musician, a well-known Toreador decides to embrace him. As a fledgling, the youth spontaneously develops the Spirit Mentor merit and the flaw Repelled by Crosses. Local Tremere have used Spirit Thaumaturgy and claim to have not detected the "demon", and dismiss the whole thing as an affectation, though the demon could have just been hiding well. Some vampires with Auspex have sensed weird happenings around the musician. Is this Infernalism in the eyes of the Camarilla?

    A disturbed Brujah declares he wants to use demons to fight the Sabbat. He forms a small cult, though he is very mindful of the Masquerade. He is trying to learn about demons and the occult, hoping to harness their power in the fight against his enemies. Everyone... everyone... agrees he is too dumb to summon a pizza with a telephone and a coupon. But, the intent is there, and who knows... he might get lucky. Is this Infernalism in the eyes of the Camarilla?

    A Malkavian claims she hears demonic voices which tell her to do things, and sometimes gives her useful advice. The local vampires chalk this up to her Malk heritage. She sometimes seems to have knowledge of things she could not possibly know, but, then again, that's what passes for normal in her clan. Is this Infernalism in the eyes of the Camarilla?

    A Gangrel from Romania entered torpor in Transylvania, sleeping in the soil for centuries. She has been loyal to the Camarilla since her emergence, fighting the Sabbat with gusto, but often speaks darkly of venerating "the spirit of her homeland" as her main spiritual belief system. When pressed she says the spirit has many names, but she usually calls it "Grandmother Thunder". She has built a herd among local pagans, who show no particular aptitude for true magick. She knows Viissitude 1 and Spiritus 2, but then sect lines were blurrier when she entered torpor. Is this Infernalism in the eyes of the Camarilla?

    A necromaner works closely with something he calls a Spectre. The necromancer does errands for the spectre sometimes, like burning down a vacant building or murdering a seemingly random person. In exchange, it teaches him stuff... mostly practical skills, but some rituals, too. Is this Infernalism in the eyes of the Camarilla?


    So, anybody want to take a crack at writing a working definition of "Infernalism" that would work within the context of what the Camarilla actually knows in-world?

    Leave a comment:


  • Zanos
    replied
    I don't recall the Tremere having a rule about spirits or ghosts? I mean, path of spirits is uncommon but sanctioned, and there's a small organization of minor necromancer in the clan. Their stance on infernalism is pretty serious last I checked, since Tremere who use it are almost certainly going to harm the clan, and it bypasses normal access controls on Thaumaturgical lore.

    But I agree that Infernalism is an Evil among evils. It blackens your soul and warps your personality to the point that all you can do is self destruct and catch a ton of people in the blast.

    Leave a comment:


  • Beckett
    replied
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    Well, the clan which is far and away most likely to deal with the infernal are the Tremere, simply because other Camarilla tend to lack the occult resources to summon a demon. The Tremere, internally, have a rule against infernalism.
    They also jave a rule against interacting with spirits, ghosts, fey, mages, etc, but that only applies if they get caught doing something harmful to the Clan.

    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    The Camarilla is theoretically live-and-let-live, but has a definite FIFO aspect to it's society
    Live and let live they are absolutely not.

    Originally posted by SandCarlyle View Post
    As I recall from V20 material, infernalism is universally reviled. The Josians are Archons focused on the destruction of the infernal. Like the Sabbat, infernalism is always to be eradicated, the difference is like the difference concerning Antediluvians: the Camarilla doesn't want to say aloud officially that it exists.
    It is not that the Camarilla does not want to admit that Caine or the Antideluvians exist(ed), as much as that history and lore are not their focus. Keeping vampires hidden from mortals is. Some among the Camarilla do believe, some do not, and some are unsure. In fact, it os more likely that much more of the elders, Inner Circle, founders, and highest ranking DO believe, either because they have personally met members of the 4th-6th Gen, Kindred who have personally met Antideluvians, where raised on the lore as factual, if not actually met two or three Antideluvians, (Giovanni, Tremere, and possibly even Cappadocius).

    The thing is, the Camarilla is there to keep power and keep things running smoothly. Extremists of Noddist lore can be very harmful and lead Kindred to break or defy the Traditions, thinking the end is nigh. Individuals, like Jan Pietersoon are outright against Noddist lore, and many within the Camarilla are against others trying to use it when it contradicts their plans.

    About infernalism, it is a very destructive and corrupting force that allows an individual or group access to powers and information that undermines the Elders and Camarilla. It's practice brings down Domains and enslaves mortals and Cainites, destroys loyalties. All of the great Cainite ends of an era, (Baali Wars, Carthage, Rome...), have Infernalism directly linked. Sort of out of game, Infernalism is also one of those things that is intentionally universally reviled, beyond Clan, Sect, or religious boarders, but also impossible to stamp out.

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  • Justycar
    replied
    Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
    So, I wasn't sure on a matter. I am aware there are Camarilla officials called Josians or something that hunt infernalists. But I was having a harder time finding broader information. Is inferalism officially illegal in the Camarilla? Might there be Princes in some cities that allow it? It was a less clear cut thing to me than in the Sabbat.
    Petaniqua, Dylan Bruce and Valerius Maior were Camarilla characters at some point of their history and famous infernalist, most wanted members of the Red List. I would recommend you to search something about them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Monalfie
    replied
    Thanks for the information. It seems Rites of the Blood has most of what I was looking for.
    "Although the Camarilla Traditions do not explicitly forbid infernalism, the Inner Circle's record is clear."
    Much appreciated for pointing me there.

    Leave a comment:

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