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Locating Enoch

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  • Locating Enoch

    1) We know that the First City was destroyed during the Biblical Flood and after which the Second City was built. And, according to Noddist, Caine left Eden, travelled the land of Nod (Land Outside or East of Eden) and brought technological knowledge from the Cradle of Civilization to the First City.

    So Eden could, conceivably, be located just West of Mesopotamia, where Caine wandered and learned from those civilization before making his way to Ubar/Enoch.

    2) The Flood, while not World Wide, was very likely a true event as it was depicted in many Culture in the Middle-Eastern area. Some of the current theories are:
    • The Persian Gulf, which was lower about 18 000 years and rose to current level about 8 000 years ago.
    • The Black Sea Deluge, although controversial, this hypothesis speaks of an increase of the level arounf 5 600BC.
    • Tsunamis created either by a meteor/comet crashing in the Indian Ocean or provoked by the Explosion of the Thera Volcano.
    Any of those could work really well. The Black Sea Deluge is kind of my favorite as it would put it closer to the Europe/Asia Divide and closer to the Caucasus Mountain, where where the first Indo-European people spread East (as far as China) and West (to the Edge of Europe).

    So what would be your take on it? Where would you put Enoch if you had to give it a location?
    Last edited by Boneguard; 06-03-2018, 06:38 PM.


    Project consolidation:
    Rough Draft: Dhole Shifters, Ottawa By Night, Tribebook Bunyip, Garou Variant
    In redaction: Lasombra Bloodline

  • #2
    I like the First City a bit older than some, so I'd go with the Persian Gulf water levels rising. A fair number of historians and theologians have tentatively pointed out Iran as a possible location for Eden, with its connection to the four rivers depicted in Genesis, namely the Tigris, Euphrates, Gihon and Pishon/Uizhun (possibly the Sefîd-Rud or the, now dry, Wadi Bisha). According to the lore, Enoch would be somewhere east of that. How far east is really up to debate, as is the idea that Caine headed east at all, but there's not much in Canon to go by except unreliable narrators like the Methuselah in the Revised Toreador Clanbook.

    Having the ruins of Enoch hidden under the waters of the Persian Gulf is a fun idea, though. If one is using the Gehenna Wars as presented in the upcoming V5, one could use this as a reason for the Sabbat heading into the Middle East. Noddists would be tripping over themselves to find The City That Caine Built. If you're using 2nd Edition, Revised or V20, there's still lots of mileage to be gotten out of Enoch in the Persian Gulf. The Assamites of Alamut might want to hold it and gain something from it, or even destroy whatever remains, if you're using the Enesh version of the story and the ruins confirm (in their eyes) or contradict it. Historians, like Beckett, would obviously be interested in a sunken ruin with a (rumored) history like that. The True Black Hand would also probably be keen on exploring (or claiming) the material remnants of their home base in the Shadowlands.
    Last edited by AzraelFirestorm; 06-03-2018, 03:20 PM.


    “Nobody is purely good or purely evil. Most of us are in-between. There are moths that explore the day and butterflies that play at night.”
    - Suzy Kassem, Rise Up and Salute The Sun
    (She/Her)

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    • #3
      That's true indeed.

      I do love the idea that the actual city is somewhere, submerged, physically lost to all and whose true location is only know to a few (who have every reason to lie about where it is).

      Another option tied to it, in a way, would be with the end of the Last glacial period (which ended circa 11 700 year ago (with the warming starting circa 13 000 years ago)) where the sea level eventually raised by 125m (417 feet). Any coastal town back then would also be lost today.
      Last edited by Boneguard; 06-03-2018, 03:24 PM.


      Project consolidation:
      Rough Draft: Dhole Shifters, Ottawa By Night, Tribebook Bunyip, Garou Variant
      In redaction: Lasombra Bloodline

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      • #4
        While nebulous at best, you can sort of infer when the flood happened by the history of the clans. In another thread I pointed out the revised Assamite clanbook states they have 10000 years of history, meaning Haqim was embraced somewhere around 8000 BC. Since his embrace was before the flood, we can guess it happened after 8000 bc. We more or less know there were no 4th gens before the flood because Caine ordered it. We also more or less know that the flood didn't last an obnoxiously long time as 4th gens started popping up in the 7000s bc with Japheth being embraced around 7225 BC.

        We can use these dates to get a rough idea of when the flood happened and look at our own history/flood myths to figure out around where it happened and get an idea of where Enoch would be.

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        • #5
          I don't see anything saying Caine took technology from the cradle of civilization and brought it to Enoch? I see more Caine brought the last vestiges of Celestial Knowledge, so agriculture he learned from his parents who learned from Angels and occult Blood wisdom from Lilith.

          I like the idea brought on by the Analects of the 3rd Garden where Lilith is responsible for the Deluge and the Flood Represented the Darkness of the Abyss.

          But I can see Enoch being in a lot of places. It seems the 2nd City of Ubar was built around the central tower of the 1st city. Hell maybe its under something like the Dead Sea, Sahara, Red Sea, or any number of places.

          The modern Kindred seems to understand Cainite History as 10k years old, but the eldest Cainites seem to point out the oldest Antediluvians might actually be 14k years old, and some 3rd gen may be born thousands of years after.


          It is a time for great deeds!

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Boneguard View Post
            1) We know that the First City was destroyed during the Biblical Flood and after which the Second City was built. And, according to Noddist, Caine left Eden, travelled the land of Nod (Land Outside or East of Eden) and brought technological knowledge from the Cradle of Civilization to the First City.

            So Eden could, conceivably, be located just East of Mesopotamia, where Caine wandered and learned from those civilization before making his way to Ubar/Enoch.
            Maybe I'm confused, but if Caine left Eden, heading toward the land to the East, and encountered Nod and Mesopotamia, wouldn't that place Eden to the West of Nod and Mesopotomia?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post

              Maybe I'm confused, but if Caine left Eden, heading toward the land to the East, and encountered Nod and Mesopotamia, wouldn't that place Eden to the West of Nod and Mesopotomia?
              Good catch! I was thinking West and wrote East because Why not!?

              I've corrected it.


              Project consolidation:
              Rough Draft: Dhole Shifters, Ottawa By Night, Tribebook Bunyip, Garou Variant
              In redaction: Lasombra Bloodline

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                The modern Kindred seems to understand Cainite History as 10k years old, but the eldest Cainites seem to point out the oldest Antediluvians might actually be 14k years old,
                I guess technically if you think about the 2nd gen and Caine himself being antediluvians, since they were turned before the flood.

                and some 3rd gen may be born thousands of years after.
                Considering the 2nd gen were pretty good about not embracing after Caine said no more, as far as we know at least, pretty much every 3rd gen that are actual "antediluvians" were embraced around the same time. Everyone else, Gratiano, Tremere, Augustus, and Troile (I'm not counting Lugoj because he was dead when that whole thing went on) are 3rd gen by eating their way up the ladder.

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                • #9
                  But thing is some 3rd gen Embraced before the Flood. The Niktuku for instance were all embraced outside of Enoch in secret by Absimiliard in an attempt to gather a brood and get revenge for Zillah scaring and embracing him. He wasn't punished because he did this in secret outside the influence of Enoch before the flood. And yes Caine and his kids are Antes too.

                  Hell for all we know others did this too, maybe the Garuhi came about before the flood and the curse because some Niktuku embraced while wandering before Abby could reign them all in, after all Baba Yaga was supposed to be a Niktuku but she escaped before he could blood bond her.


                  It is a time for great deeds!

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                  • #10
                    All official accounts (Book of Nod, the Revelations of the Dark Mother, etc.) tend to be not too specific on the when (or where for that manner), so any date or timeframe need to be dealt with with a critical eye.


                    Project consolidation:
                    Rough Draft: Dhole Shifters, Ottawa By Night, Tribebook Bunyip, Garou Variant
                    In redaction: Lasombra Bloodline

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Boneguard View Post
                      All official accounts (Book of Nod, the Revelations of the Dark Mother, etc.) tend to be not too specific on the when (or where for that manner), so any date or timeframe need to be dealt with with a critical eye.
                      That is why you go with accounts of stories passed by witnesses. Or the out of character statement that Vasilissa is over twice Baba Yaga's age, which puts it at over 14k, and Nosferatu tell stories of Absimiliard hunting Sabertooth Tigers and the Ice Age. And out of canon Analects of the 3rd Garden is really good contradictory myth source.


                      It is a time for great deeds!

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                        But thing is some 3rd gen Embraced before the Flood. The Niktuku for instance were all embraced outside of Enoch in secret by Absimiliard in an attempt to gather a brood and get revenge for Zillah scaring and embracing him. He wasn't punished because he did this in secret outside the influence of Enoch before the flood. And yes Caine and his kids are Antes too.
                        Zillah and the others were brought down in the second city. The Nicktuku were embraced around that time. Unless you want to believe that Vasilisa is really twice the age if Baba Yaga and therefore older than Absimiliard by a couple thousand years.

                        Hell for all we know others did this too, maybe the Garuhi came about before the flood and the curse because some Niktuku embraced while wandering before Abby could reign them all in, after all Baba Yaga was supposed to be a Niktuku but she escaped before he could blood bond her.
                        One could say Baba Yaga was the first of his childer, and he realized his mistake after and began to immediately bond the others. After all, the Nicktuku rarely embrace. The only one known to have is Melachoate. And his line are preaching the "not all Nicktuku are blood thirsty vampire killers" line.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Kael03 View Post

                          Zillah and the others were brought down in the second city. The Nicktuku were embraced around that time. Unless you want to believe that Vasilisa is really twice the age if Baba Yaga and therefore older than Absimiliard by a couple thousand years.



                          One could say Baba Yaga was the first of his childer, and he realized his mistake after and began to immediately bond the others. After all, the Nicktuku rarely embrace. The only one known to have is Melachoate. And his line are preaching the "not all Nicktuku are blood thirsty vampire killers" line.

                          That's the thing most of the statements that say the Antes are 10k years old are actually saying they are at least 10k years old. We don't really have statements contradicting them being older, so 14k works even though most beings think they are only 10-12k. And as crazy as it is they outright say Vasilissa is that old. But this works because it sounds like Absimiliard essentially went out and explored shortly after being embraced, yeah he kills Zillah later, or maybe she turns to stone depending on the legend, but that is because it took him a while to prepare. Flat out though he was desiring revenge since day one, and it is supposedly believed Zillah Blood bonded him so he probably took a minute to break that, though it may have actually been him killing her that broke it.

                          We know very little of the Niktuku. Period. We have one story of Melachoate and his line of kids... but its not like a drop in the bucket of a buttload of stories. We don't have much on them. Some of them are probably before the Flood, and some after, and I would personally wager a lot of them died. From the accounts of the Children of Haquim the 3rd gen each sired dozens of times but there kids had high attrition rates in mythic times. So I wager we only know of the handful of the Niktuku in modern times, and even the Dark Ages probably have stories of a few that didn't pass along to modern times, particularly with the Camarilla's frowning upon Noddist lore.


                          It is a time for great deeds!

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                          • #14
                            According to the Younger Dryas extinction hypothesis, the flood happened in 12900 before present. There are many hypothesis on that civilization didn't began in Asian mesopotamia. The denisova cave had a stone bracelet from 40000 before present, and Gobleki Tepe in Turkey is around 12000 before present. The Andean civilization is apparently 15000 before present and the older parts of Teotihuacan might be even older, oh, and Antarctica apparently covered in ice around that time (Piri Reis map).

                            But yeah, I'd put Enoch in the mesopotamia or in lower Egypt.

                            -Saga
                            Last edited by Saga; 06-04-2018, 04:01 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Enoch no longer exists on Earth because the antedeluvian world was a mixture of material reality and the umbra. Nowadays people want each game line to be its own separate thing, but they were intended to be one World of Darkness. I think canonically Enoch now exists in the Underworld.

                              In my chronicles (regardless of game line), the WoD essentially begins somewhere along 10,000-12,000 BC. Prior to that is the antedeluvian age, whether it be the Biblical story before the Flood, Atlantis civilization, Hyperborea, Mu, or anything else. After that is history along the lines we understand it albeit with vampires, werewolves, wizards, ghosts, and faeries.

                              Enoch is never going to be found. However, the Second City would be found in those parts of the Persian Gulf which were dry lands in the Ice Age but are now underwater. The Antedeluvians probably awakened from their torpor during the Flood around 8000 BC and established the Second City. When that was destroyed, they scattered and became seen as gods, while their childer became the first god kings of Sumeria, Egypt, and the Indus Valley.

                              That is my story at least.

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