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  • #16
    Originally posted by Saga View Post
    According to the Younger Dryas extinction hypothesis, the flood happened in 12900 before present. There are many hypothesis on that civilization didn't began in Asian mesopotamia. The denisova cave had a stone bracelet from 40000 before present, and Gobleki Tepe in Turkey is around 12000 before present. The Andean civilization is apparently 150000 before present and the older parts of Teotihuacan might be even older, oh, and Antarctica apparently covered in ice around that time (Piri Reis map).

    But yeah, I'd put Enoch in the mesopotamia or in lower Egypt.

    -Saga
    No way is the Andean Civilization 150,000 years old, this must be a typo yeah?

    But little secret that Demon the Fallen revealed, the bible and Cainites got history a bit wrong, probably due to pride. The Fallen actually remember Caine and Abel as the last Children of Adam and Eve. Its a very interesting difference as this explains humanity spreading before Caine was cursed. So Caine was cursed and wandered during the War between the Fallen and Heaven. By the time he settled and started the first city the Fallen were banished. And thus the First City isn't the true first city as the Angels erased the era of Mankind that existed during the War of Angels.


    And the 2nd city was built upon the ruins of the First City. Enoch is literally the relics the Enoch that existed in the material world, as well as the 2nd city. Because in the Underworld ruins can appear from their material world destruction.


    It is a time for great deeds!

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
      No way is the Andean Civilization 150,000 years old, this must be a typo yeah?

      But little secret that Demon the Fallen revealed, the bible and Cainites got history a bit wrong, probably due to pride. The Fallen actually remember Caine and Abel as the last Children of Adam and Eve. Its a very interesting difference as this explains humanity spreading before Caine was cursed. So Caine was cursed and wandered during the War between the Fallen and Heaven. By the time he settled and started the first city the Fallen were banished. And thus the First City isn't the true first city as the Angels erased the era of Mankind that existed during the War of Angels.


      And the 2nd city was built upon the ruins of the First City. Enoch is literally the relics the Enoch that existed in the material world, as well as the 2nd city. Because in the Underworld ruins can appear from their material world destruction.

      Sorry, yes, that was a typo.

      -Saga

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Saga View Post

        [...]

        But yeah, I'd put Enoch in the mesopotamia or in lower Egypt.

        -Saga
        Lower Egypt is an interesting though. Lower Egypt along the Delta could by an interesting spot indeed, or in the Sinai peninsula.


        Project consolidation:
        Rough Draft: Dhole Shifters, Ottawa By Night, Tribebook Bunyip, Garou Variant
        In redaction: Lasombra Bloodline

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        • #19
          So my internet is being crappy and I can't access bbcodes, but on the topic of the "antediluvian" civilizations hypotheses:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDejwCGdUV8
          "Joe Rogan Experience #725 - Graham Hancock & Randall Carlson"

          This podcast has two experts on the hypothesis discussing it, at least up until the 40-minute mark or so. According to them, the Great Flood originated in North America and was in fact global, and there were a series of these floods 12.8kya and 11.6kya. One of the more intriguing tidbits they mention: the plains of Montana, USA have 11-mile wide ripple marks gouged into them, identical to ripple marks seen on the ocean floor from deep sea currents. They also suppose that "modern" civilizations may have developed earlier in Europe and Asia as compared to the Americas because the North American technology would have been wiped out entirely when the Flood hit, while in other parts of the world some remnants of basic tools and historical structures may have allowed people to start relearning and rebuilding sooner.

          I'd have no idea how to translate an idea like this into the VtM metaplot, but it's some interesting stuff nonetheless.

          Edit: It had been awhile since I last watched this video and got some details wrong. Edited those.
          Last edited by Chesh; 06-08-2018, 01:39 PM.


          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Chesh View Post
            So my internet is being crappy and I can't access bbcodes, but on the topic of the "antediluvian" civilizations hypotheses:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDejwCGdUV8
            "Joe Rogan Experience #725 - Graham Hancock & Randall Carlson"

            This podcast has two experts on the hypothesis discussing it, at least up until the 40-minute mark or so. According to them, the Great Flood originated in North America and was in fact global and lasted for 1,000 years before it receded. One of the more intriguing tidbits they mention: the plains of New Mexico, USA have 11-mile wide ripple marks gouged into them, identical to ripple marks seen on the ocean floor from deep sea currents. They also suppose that "modern" civilizations may have developed earlier in Europe and Asia as compared to the Americas because the North American technology would have been wiped out entirely when the Flood hit, while in other parts of the world some remnants of basic tools and historical structures may have allowed people to start relearning and rebuilding sooner.

            I'd have no idea how to translate an idea like this into the VtM metaplot, but it's some interesting stuff nonetheless.
            Interesting find. I'll look at it tonight or over the weekend. Definitely something that can give us good for though.

            Thank you


            Project consolidation:
            Rough Draft: Dhole Shifters, Ottawa By Night, Tribebook Bunyip, Garou Variant
            In redaction: Lasombra Bloodline

            Comment


            • #21
              I'm a big fan of the Green Sahara scenario. That wherever the First Kindred was that's where it happened. Some went south to become Laibon some went north to become Kindred. But I'm also of the opinion that that person wasn't caine and that Caine was completely and utterly full of shit. He was driven off the elder Laibon because he wouldn't submit to the ritual that keeps gen from getting stronger because "UNLIMITED POWWWWA" and then he did the whole "yeah I'm the third mortal" thing when running around the Middle east where the story was already there.. thus why Saulot completely freaked out when he went east found out that not only was there civilization taht would apparently predate the creation of the world but unrelated vampires.

              Comment


              • #22
                Something I always thought was interesting is how the Underworld Enoch did mot have any sort of i dicators that might help locate the actual site. If, say the Empire State Building appeared in the underworld, you might expect it to come with a street or two at it's boarder, but Enoch doesn't seem to contain anything, even within it to give a clue. Not even types of rocks, wood, or animal bones that could only be found in a certain area.

                As for the location of Enoch in the WoD, it could kind of anywhere, between continental shifts, Mages possibly completely rewritting ancient history, and other factors.

                Always thought it might be kind of funny to have Enoch and the Antediluvians having always been in the Americas, which is why some of the truely ancient seem to make their way there, (Canada, New York, Chicago, Mexico).

                Comment


                • #23
                  That is why they don't hammer it down, so you can put it where you want. I don't see why they don't have to know where it is. Its probably less important cause its in the middle of nowhere and is no longer enoch is some other country now. Why the Shadow of Enoch is important is because its still a reflection of Enoch.


                  It is a time for great deeds!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Chesh View Post
                    So my internet is being crappy and I can't access bbcodes, but on the topic of the "antediluvian" civilizations hypotheses:

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDejwCGdUV8
                    "Joe Rogan Experience #725 - Graham Hancock & Randall Carlson"

                    This podcast has two experts on the hypothesis discussing it, at least up until the 40-minute mark or so. According to them, the Great Flood originated in North America and was in fact global, and there were a series of these floods 12.8kya and 11.6kya. One of the more intriguing tidbits they mention: the plains of Montana, USA have 11-mile wide ripple marks gouged into them, identical to ripple marks seen on the ocean floor from deep sea currents. They also suppose that "modern" civilizations may have developed earlier in Europe and Asia as compared to the Americas because the North American technology would have been wiped out entirely when the Flood hit, while in other parts of the world some remnants of basic tools and historical structures may have allowed people to start relearning and rebuilding sooner.

                    I'd have no idea how to translate an idea like this into the VtM metaplot, but it's some interesting stuff nonetheless.

                    Edit: It had been awhile since I last watched this video and got some details wrong. Edited those.

                    Thanks to Vampire the Masquerade (around in '98) I became incredibly interested in anthropology, mostly in ancient civilizations (to create family trees of all cainites in all civilization). For a while I have been studying and found about experts like Irving Finkel, Heather Lynn and Graham Hancock. Hancock's Orion correlation theory and the Younger Ydras hypothesis has been ringing in my head for a long time. This game motivated me to actually desire to study anthropology at UBA (University of Buenos Aires) as soon as I can (mainly due to works, family and resposibilites). So, yeah, thanks Olde White Wolf for this!

                    And yeah, I did translate as much as I could of those civilizations of 10,950 BC to present in my setting. I like to have the most background information as I can, this really helps me to settle the Jyhad clearly on who's who of those manipulators, and when are they in every period of time. I wrote a resume on the last court of Veddartha in Caisra, the conflict between Antonius the Gaul and Alexander of Athens, the cold war of Helena and Menele in Cadiz, the purge of Clan Lasombra, the drama of Alexandra meeting her sire (Arikel), and the corruption of Arika and Meonia by the "third" (yeah, THAT Baali, which is the main plot of my current chronicle).

                    - Saga
                    Last edited by Saga; 06-11-2018, 03:44 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                      Something I always thought was interesting is how the Underworld Enoch did mot have any sort of i dicators that might help locate the actual site. If, say the Empire State Building appeared in the underworld, you might expect it to come with a street or two at it's boarder, but Enoch doesn't seem to contain anything, even within it to give a clue. Not even types of rocks, wood, or animal bones that could only be found in a certain area.
                      As for the location of Enoch in the WoD, it could kind of anywhere, between continental shifts, Mages possibly completely rewritting ancient history, and other factors.
                      Always thought it might be kind of funny to have Enoch and the Antediluvians having always been in the Americas, which is why some of the truely ancient seem to make their way there, (Canada, New York, Chicago, Mexico).
                      In the underworld, the names of those streets around the empire state may fade over millenia when they're no longer relevant.
                      As to specific things to Enoch; 1) it's not an absolute copy, more the emotional copy of the area, so if those things weren't important, they would be copied.
                      2) those small aspects could have been used and soul-forged in to something else
                      3) it could all just be a misremembered dream from one of the Aralu interred inside.
                      3b) or the Aralu are the ghosts of the first Vampires destroyed and they have crafted it.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I understand that, and I suspect that Umderworld Enoch is only the reflection of the idea of Enoch rather than Enoch itself, but what Im referring to is how this does not seemed to be touched upon In Game.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                          I understand that, and I suspect that Umderworld Enoch is only the reflection of the idea of Enoch rather than Enoch itself, but what Im referring to is how this does not seemed to be touched upon In Game.
                          I believe they specifically don't set in stone were Enoch was because they want freedom for every table to decide that. For instance if you made Enoch in Ethiopia because some believe that the Garden of Eden was there would be a different situation then if you had Enoch on the banks of the Tigris. Or even Enoch being in North America. Or the not unreasonable notion that Enoch's physical location wouldn't exist anymore because the World's Cosmology changed and became a globe. Nod could be a location no longer in the physical World.


                          It is a time for great deeds!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            The point I'm trying to make is not that the books never state the location, but rather that they do not, (as far as I recall, but could be wrong), do some basic things such as offer reasons why such things fail. Again, from an in game perspective, has no one ever tried this? Is there a reason modern archeology techniques (that can be used in the Underworld) have been unsucessful or just no one has bothered?

                            I don't mind the answer being unclear, I'm just pointing out you would think some possibilities for common sense solutions might be mentioned as unreliable or conflicting.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Well personally I wish they talked more about Kaymalki, its a magical underground city recently reclaimed by vampires, but they ignore that too.

                              I feel Vampire is often pessimistic with archeology. Any time they explain a vampires point of view on the prehistoric path they can never seem to put two and two together that human archeology could possibly be wrong because THEY DON'T KNOW THE SUPERNATURAL EXISTS. Like most vampires that are modern historians can never seem to understand that.

                              But easy answer could be, maybe Enoch is Obfuscated so people have been having a hard time even discussing its physical location.


                              It is a time for great deeds!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                It is a fair point, that reason behind the the inability to locate Enoch is as non existant as its location.

                                And I agree, there's a lot a place where the ST could drop it in his WoD setting, Middle East and Northern Africa being 2 prime candidates but other exist.


                                Project consolidation:
                                Rough Draft: Dhole Shifters, Ottawa By Night, Tribebook Bunyip, Garou Variant
                                In redaction: Lasombra Bloodline

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