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  • #16
    Originally posted by Coridan View Post


    I get the feeling in the new system you can still handwave feeding if you want to, but I hate blood pool and blood points. It's too gamey.
    It is after all a game. Specifically what it isn't is a LARP but New WW seems to be trying really hard to make it as close to one as they can.

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    • #17
      From two people that played the newer version of the rules here in Sweden, I can tell you that they liked the system a lot more than the two publicly released versions. So while hunger and stuff are still there, I trust them enough to be excited about V5.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by blackheartz View Post
        From two people that played the newer version of the rules here in Sweden, I can tell you that they liked the system a lot more than the two publicly released versions. So while hunger and stuff are still there, I trust them enough to be excited about V5.

        Could you give any details? Pretty please?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post

          Which aspects are you enquiring about? I may be able to help out your mind at rest.
          Sure thing. Thank you for the offer.

          While I like the general idea of the Hunger rules, the compulsion charts don't feel as a good idea. Too much stuff, decisions and/or rolls and generally slowing down the game. As far as I can tell feedback on compulsion charts was negative.

          Not being able to reduce Hunger to 0 without killing humans is one of the things that really disturbs many fans. Even some gamers to which I described V5 (and not in a bad way) told me "I dunno. This Hunger thing sounds interesting but having to kill humans to satiate hunger is... I dunno, changes the whole setting a lot." I can see what they mean.

          I didn't see a single positive feedback about touchstones in the whole web. I might be wrong but as far as I can tell very few people seem to welcome their introduction in VtM. Me too I don't welcome touchstones

          1s and 10s in Hunger dice aren't so rare, yet a single 10 can cause a messy critical and a single 1 can make you lose a turn. While I like the idea of messy criticals I think they can come up too often. Losing next turn is also too easy. This just my personal opinion

          Also declaration of combat turns from lowest initiave to highest. I never met a single group of players in real life that ever used this. I read here that some groups use it. Most group don't. I suspect almost all groups don't. Anyway this is a minor thing, easily houseruled. But I find annoying that I feel the need to houserule the game even before it's out

          All in all it's not that I dislike the design as a whole.
          I'm just hoping some stuff from the alpha was toned down, reduced, simplified (even removed in the case of the touchstones) and generally refined


          101 simple plot ideas for VtM

          "Ever since the Followers of Set rebranded themselves as The Ministry, I can barely keep a straight face around them." - Ramona #vamily

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Ravnos View Post

            Sure thing. Thank you for the offer.

            While I like the general idea of the Hunger rules, the compulsion charts don't feel as a good idea. Too much stuff, decisions and/or rolls and generally slowing down the game. As far as I can tell feedback on compulsion charts was negative.

            Not being able to reduce Hunger to 0 without killing humans is one of the things that really disturbs many fans. Even some gamers to which I described V5 (and not in a bad way) told me "I dunno. This Hunger thing sounds interesting but having to kill humans to satiate hunger is... I dunno, changes the whole setting a lot." I can see what they mean.

            I didn't see a single positive feedback about touchstones in the whole web. I might be wrong but as far as I can tell very few people seem to welcome their introduction in VtM. Me too I don't welcome touchstones

            1s and 10s in Hunger dice aren't so rare, yet a single 10 can cause a messy critical and a single 1 can make you lose a turn. While I like the idea of messy criticals I think they can come up too often. Losing next turn is also too easy. This just my personal opinion

            Also declaration of combat turns from lowest initiave to highest. I never met a single group of players in real life that ever used this. I read here that some groups use it. Most group don't. I suspect almost all groups don't. Anyway this is a minor thing, easily houseruled. But I find annoying that I feel the need to houserule the game even before it's out

            All in all it's not that I dislike the design as a whole.
            I'm just hoping some stuff from the alpha was toned down, reduced, simplified (even removed in the case of the touchstones) and generally refined
            Thank you for this!

            Just for a peek around the curtain, we asked for feedback after the alpha and invited people to complete an online survey about various aspects of the scenario. That survey came out largely positive regarding the issues of Touchstones (players enjoyed the enforced connection between Kindred and mortals) and Hunger (as it made feeding a more integral part of a game about vampires). I agree that a lot of forumites were negative about Touchstones especially, but what we found was that a lot more players voice their unhappiness on forums than their praise. I'm not saying that's the case for you in particular, but if the feedback we received directly was anything to go, it's definitely a matter of perception.

            As for specific responses to your points:

            - Hunger remains, though we've adjusted the system since the alpha test. I hope it doesn't feel so penalising.

            - Touchstones are remaining as a core way of making Humanity a more tangible quantity, especially as it worked so well for Requiem.

            - We've adjusted the frequency of messy results, with any luck.

            - We've also changed to a more simplified, agreeable form of initiative for the finished version.

            Understandably, you might want to read some reviews or check our a friend's copy before deciding if you want to make a purchase. Importantly, we did listen to the fans who reached out to us and did make adjustments, though we've not removed Hunger or Touchstones wholesale because we believe they're good systems and those fans who sent us feedback agreed, by and large.


            Matthew Dawkins
            In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing


            Website: http://www.matthewdawkins.com
            Patreon: http://https://www.patreon.com/matthewdawkins

            Comment


            • #21
              Damn. Touchstones and Hunger are my two biggest issues with the new system. However, so long as things are backwards-compatible, I'll just use V20 rules. Let's hope the updated setting lives up to BJD, as that was awesome.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post

                Thank you for this!

                Just for a peek around the curtain, we asked for feedback after the alpha and invited people to complete an online survey about various aspects of the scenario. That survey came out largely positive regarding the issues of Touchstones (players enjoyed the enforced connection between Kindred and mortals) and Hunger (as it made feeding a more integral part of a game about vampires). I agree that a lot of forumites were negative about Touchstones especially, but what we found was that a lot more players voice their unhappiness on forums than their praise. I'm not saying that's the case for you in particular, but if the feedback we received directly was anything to go, it's definitely a matter of perception.

                As for specific responses to your points:

                - Hunger remains, though we've adjusted the system since the alpha test. I hope it doesn't feel so penalising.

                - Touchstones are remaining as a core way of making Humanity a more tangible quantity, especially as it worked so well for Requiem.

                - We've adjusted the frequency of messy results, with any luck.

                - We've also changed to a more simplified, agreeable form of initiative for the finished version.

                Understandably, you might want to read some reviews or check our a friend's copy before deciding if you want to make a purchase. Importantly, we did listen to the fans who reached out to us and did make adjustments, though we've not removed Hunger or Touchstones wholesale because we believe they're good systems and those fans who sent us feedback agreed, by and large.
                I thought Hunger was neat but found that there were just too many moving parts in the system initially and found that the "only when you kill a person do you feel fully saited" thing abit hard to hang a setting on.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
                  Damn. Touchstones and Hunger are my two biggest issues with the new system. However, so long as things are backwards-compatible, I'll just use V20 rules. Let's hope the updated setting lives up to BJD, as that was awesome.
                  It'll be a very simple thing to adapt the up to date setting to old rules sets.


                  Matthew Dawkins
                  In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing


                  Website: http://www.matthewdawkins.com
                  Patreon: http://https://www.patreon.com/matthewdawkins

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post

                    Thank you for this!

                    Just for a peek around the curtain, we asked for feedback after the alpha and invited people to complete an online survey about various aspects of the scenario. That survey came out largely positive regarding the issues of Touchstones (players enjoyed the enforced connection between Kindred and mortals) and Hunger (as it made feeding a more integral part of a game about vampires). I agree that a lot of forumites were negative about Touchstones especially, but what we found was that a lot more players voice their unhappiness on forums than their praise. I'm not saying that's the case for you in particular, but if the feedback we received directly was anything to go, it's definitely a matter of perception.

                    As for specific responses to your points:

                    - Hunger remains, though we've adjusted the system since the alpha test. I hope it doesn't feel so penalising.

                    - Touchstones are remaining as a core way of making Humanity a more tangible quantity, especially as it worked so well for Requiem.

                    - We've adjusted the frequency of messy results, with any luck.

                    - We've also changed to a more simplified, agreeable form of initiative for the finished version.

                    Understandably, you might want to read some reviews or check our a friend's copy before deciding if you want to make a purchase. Importantly, we did listen to the fans who reached out to us and did make adjustments, though we've not removed Hunger or Touchstones wholesale because we believe they're good systems and those fans who sent us feedback agreed, by and large.
                    Thanks to you for the peek!
                    As I said, I like Hunger dice. I was only hoping it would get adjusted for the better in the final product.
                    As for touchstones I admit I'm surprised, but naturally I could not have idea of the direct feedback you received. If most fans like touchstones... So be it. It's not really a too big deal for me. I dislike Vice and Virtue too, but I'll manage. Adjustments on Hunger are more important for me.
                    Simplifyng initiative is very good news for me. After all I'll have to convince my current players to give this new game a shot, and they're all D&D 5th players. And 5th is a quite functional and sleek rule system. So mind that competition is stronger than ever
                    I'm still in doubt about pre-ordering but definitely I'll get more hyped about V5 with each passing day

                    P.S. it's not a matter of luck, it's math :P


                    101 simple plot ideas for VtM

                    "Ever since the Followers of Set rebranded themselves as The Ministry, I can barely keep a straight face around them." - Ramona #vamily

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post

                      Just for a peek around the curtain, we asked for feedback after the alpha and invited people to complete an online survey about various aspects of the scenario. That survey came out largely positive regarding the issues of Touchstones (players enjoyed the enforced connection between Kindred and mortals) and Hunger (as it made feeding a more integral part of a game about vampires). I agree that a lot of forumites were negative about Touchstones especially, but what we found was that a lot more players voice their unhappiness on forums than their praise. I'm not saying that's the case for you in particular, but if the feedback we received directly was anything to go, it's definitely a matter of perception.
                      I'm very curious about the demographics of people giving the feedback, since I had the same experience, that Touchstones were almost absolutely disliked everywhere, not just in forums, but in person, fb groups and such. It just seems very strange that the wast majority of tabletop VtM players on every platform disliked it, but somehow the majotiry who sent back the survey liked it. Hunger was much more balancedly received.

                      - Touchstones are remaining as a core way of making Humanity a more tangible quantity, especially as it worked so well for Requiem.
                      I'll see the final version, but it might break the game for me, sadly. I hoped very hard for the opposite, that Humanity will remain as a morality system rather than just how connected you are to humans. I'm not saying a touchstone-like system couldn't work, but that needs a whole re-thinking of what touchstone means and how it works. The only way I can see it working is if touchstones is a sufficiently loose term and could be a lot of things, not just humans. Still, that Humanity means clinging to persons and things, instead of morals just feels wrong to me.

                      At this point I just can't see it, how it'll still allow a lot of character concepts and Paths and all that and VtM won't be VtM without all those.

                      I'm still saying that it reinforced the connection to humans was a good idea and it could be fine as a background or merit. It worked in VtR as the basis for Humanity, but that has a very different focus and premises than Masquerade.

                      Oh, what I'm blabbering about, it is as it is at this point, but I'll maintain: if something would ultimately make the game totally not feeling like VtM, this will be that, not the Hunger stuff.


                      - We've also changed to a more simplified, agreeable form of initiative for the finished version.
                      I hope other parts of combat got fixed too.


                      Understandably, you might want to read some reviews or check our a friend's copy before deciding if you want to make a purchase. Importantly, we did listen to the fans who reached out to us and did make adjustments, though we've not removed Hunger or Touchstones wholesale because we believe they're good systems and those fans who sent us feedback agreed, by and large.
                      Still strange. Like, how can the communities of tabletop WoD fans online could be that disconnected from large swaths of other fans out there? It's not like politics, they are in the same communities, playing the same games. Or could it be that the majority of the surveys came back from specific circles, like the Nordic LARP community?

                      Oh, well, at worst, I'll do as the others and just use the setting and new metaplot with the V20 rules. It's just a bummer, since I liked a lot of the new rules.


                      If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                      • #26
                        With he Caveat that thing can still change, I've looked at the Alpha version and some things I like, other not so much, but this:

                        Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post
                        It'll be a very simple thing to adapt the up to date setting to old rules sets.
                        This is a good news to me. I use a core of Revised Edition, with elements (both mechanic and non-mechanic) from the 3 other editions (same is true with WTA), so if I can easily raid V5 for what I want and ignore what I don't particularly like, than it will be worth purchasing it.
                        Last edited by Boneguard; 06-17-2018, 04:24 PM.


                        Project consolidation:
                        Rough Draft: Dhole Shifters, Ottawa By Night, Tribebook Bunyip, Garou Variant
                        In redaction: Lasombra Bloodline

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Boneguard View Post
                          With he Caveat that thing can still chane, I've looked at the Alpha version and some things I like, other not so much, but this:



                          This is a good news to me. I use a core of Revised Edition, with elements (both mechanic and non-mechanic) from the 3 other editions (same is true with WTA), so if I can easily raid V5 for what I want and ignore what I don't particularly like, than it will be worth purchasing it.

                          Trust me when I say compared to the two Alpha versions, Hunger is much more refined.


                          www.darker-days.org - The Premier World of Darkness Podcast
                          Co-designer and miniature painter for Noble Armada 3e

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Dr Ether View Post


                            Trust me when I say compared to the two Alpha versions, Hunger is much more refined.
                            That's good to hear. Though, with Hunger, at least we more-or-less have seen what they're intending to do, the main direction. I've seen that it could work, just needed refinement, that it wasn't as bad as people made it out and that it was in-line wit the fluff.

                            Humanity, as it was in the Alpha, I just can't see the game working with that, even with refinement and retaining all the elements, playstyles, canonical characters and concepts. I just can't see VtM working with a VtR-like take on Humanity in that form. I'll see the beta, but my positive anticipation just took a pretty considerable blow.

                            Ah, well, at worst, I'll stop the efforts I made for convincing our playgroup to try V5 and just keep doing our Shadowrun campaign. It's starting to turn out pretty good, with hilarious characters and everyone is enthusiastic. It's also less work, since I'm just a player there.


                            If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                            • #29
                              See, the entire issue I have with CWoD Humanity system is it frames "how human you act", with "how good are your morals", and that the degeneration of Humanity is coupled with the gaining of derangements.

                              Comparatively CofD Integrity system is about how well you cope with things that shock your world view. And Humanity layers onto that, how human you appear to be. With touchstones being key features to the latter.

                              So I prefer the newer take, as it means morals are not tied to how human you pass. Because plenty of humans are worse morally than a good number of vampires. And that I feel opens up interesting story potential.


                              www.darker-days.org - The Premier World of Darkness Podcast
                              Co-designer and miniature painter for Noble Armada 3e

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                              • #30
                                The need for touchstones should just be ignored if you don't like it as a concept. Your right, there are many concepts that wouldn't have them. If they managed to get the game play balanced and you like humanity and or blood pool switching them in and using the new balanced disciplines and combat rules (if they are) would be pretty seamless I would think.

                                No effort involved, just transport the old systems whole cloth. Just need to make up new virtue and path ratings for new npcs.

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