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  • #76
    But, if we get past the Morality discussion anyway:

    Touchstone system = Have control over the beast by having links to your hhuman history. It's eroded by those touchstones being changed or destroyed and doing truly inhumane things

    Sure, no morality; Great.

    We are complaining that the characters we've had before, and characters in Fluff that don't have connections in this way (I Won't repeat it) would have very little control over the beast now. And no way of improving it except to become connected to mortals and possibly mortal institutions.

    Someone that has researched all knowledge of the beast and practised self control from Buddas themselves when they were alive have the same control as a casual killer. Or less control if that casual killer still barracks for the Red Sox and his sister is alive.

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    • #77
      Meh, I always thought the Humanity meter was a mistake. In my games, I always ignore it.

      And it doesn't seem like the Touchstones in V5 will be any better.

      V20 was good enough as it is, and had the benefit of being metaplot-neutral.

      V5 seems like a case of "if it ain't broke, fix it until it is" with its strange new mechanics and the decision to continue the awful metaplot.

      Of course, I am a noted fan of 1e and 2e, and I don't think Revised and V5 are good at all. But V20 was a nice middle ground.

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      • #78
        Isn't it a bit early to talk about V5 in a definite sense? We still haven't seen anything of the final product. All we have to go on is the pre-alpha and alpha.
        Also, the metaplot maybe convoluted, and not everybody's favorite thing, but it kept the line going, and interesting - giving players and storytellers something to talk about. BJD has consolidated most of the plothooks into one big book that I can see as a good foundation for a continuation of the metaplot. From a transmedia point of view, the deep and rich background of VtM makes a lot of sense. There is a lot going on that can be turned into an "expanded" universe.

        V20 was a collector's edition of the rules. Nothing major got revised, so the rules system is still stuck in the mid to end 90ies. Only 20 years later, we have come to expect different things from role-playing games. The Forge happened, some Indie concepts turned mainstream, a lot of game systems now incorporate more player driven narratives - finally fulfilling the promise of a storyteller system. I can totally see the appeal for a company to update the rules to capture and enthrall a new audience.

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        • #79
          Camilla

          I usually agree with you, I'm not sure if dropping humanity works, but you have me going through it. I'm assuming you still use virtues to avoid frenzy? You've got me trying to figure out if Humanity can just be ignored with virtues just doing double duty. I think the biggest problem is how the different levels of sin were written.

          What changes when you forgo the Humanity stat? length of torpor (set by age?), How many dice during the day(by generation in reverse,maybe losing a die for every gen above 13th?), how many dice interacting with humans(make normal, possibly combined virtue ratings?). Powers target humanity/path sometimes, switch to willpower? I feel like Humanity just needs a rewrite, but you have me thinking about it. Vampires tend to find the 3ish range (personally I'd stay higher, but in a vampire game sometimes people need killin) eventually in my games so I always thought paths were the only real way to go as a vampire.

          I find the slam "path of what I would do anyway" silly as long as your finding a structure. You'll naturally drift to the path you agree with the most.

          I guess virtues would still be subject to degeneration, I suppose it could be balanced out to remove it and simply have virtues be the bench mark for behavior. I'm gonna think about this for awhile, so thanks for the mental exercise.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Murder-of-Crows View Post
            Isn't it a bit early to talk about V5 in a definite sense? We still haven't seen anything of the final product. All we have to go on is the pre-alpha and alpha.
            Also, the metaplot maybe convoluted, and not everybody's favorite thing, but it kept the line going, and interesting - giving players and storytellers something to talk about. BJD has consolidated most of the plothooks into one big book that I can see as a good foundation for a continuation of the metaplot. From a transmedia point of view, the deep and rich background of VtM makes a lot of sense. There is a lot going on that can be turned into an "expanded" universe.
            I agree with this on a general level.

            V20 was a collector's edition of the rules. Nothing major got revised, so the rules system is still stuck in the mid to end 90ies. Only 20 years later, we have come to expect different things from role-playing games. The Forge happened, some Indie concepts turned mainstream, a lot of game systems now incorporate more player driven narratives - finally fulfilling the promise of a storyteller system. I can totally see the appeal for a company to update the rules to capture and enthrall a new audience.
            Now, that's an intersting debate. I think true narrative games are more niche and have a smaller audieince, than classic-style RPGs. Just look at the most succesfull RPGs out there. Yes, D&D 5e brought in Inspiration, but that's arguably more akin to to how WoD used Willpower for decades (or Shadowrun used/uses Karma/edge, for that matter). An in-character resource that you could use to enhance an action of the character to some level. True narrative mechanics (ie: those that would put the player into the director's seat and allow scene-altering decisions outside the character's actions) aren't really there in most of those RPGs.

            In a sense, the indie narrative revolution remained, well, in the confines of smaller indie games.

            To be honest, for my part, I'm not a fan of narrative mechanics and I like mid-level complexity and simulation (the level provided by WoD and NWoD 1e was almost perfect for me in that regard). I think it's not far-fetched to assume that the majority of players out there prefer that over truly rules-light and narrative systems.

            What does it mean for V5? That simplifying the system is good, four rolls for a simple attack was clearly unnecessary. However, I think the game should still provide ample tactical choices for combat (like maneuvers, defenses, etc.) and a reasonable level of simulation. However, yes, WoD always advertised itself as "story first". I even have the conviction that the narrative revolution basically have grown out from under WoD's trenchcoat. Thus, introducing some narrative mechanics, like succes with a cost, or messy criticals is a good thing, but I won't make the game into FATE: the Masquerade, or something like that.



            If nothing worked, then let's think!

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post
              Camilla

              I usually agree with you, I'm not sure if dropping humanity works, but you have me going through it. I'm assuming you still use virtues to avoid frenzy? You've got me trying to figure out if Humanity can just be ignored with virtues just doing double duty. I think the biggest problem is how the different levels of sin were written.

              What changes when you forgo the Humanity stat? length of torpor (set by age?), How many dice during the day(by generation in reverse,maybe losing a die for every gen above 13th?), how many dice interacting with humans(make normal, possibly combined virtue ratings?). Powers target humanity/path sometimes, switch to willpower? I feel like Humanity just needs a rewrite, but you have me thinking about it. Vampires tend to find the 3ish range (personally I'd stay higher, but in a vampire game sometimes people need killin) eventually in my games so I always thought paths were the only real way to go as a vampire.

              I find the slam "path of what I would do anyway" silly as long as your finding a structure. You'll naturally drift to the path you agree with the most.

              I guess virtues would still be subject to degeneration, I suppose it could be balanced out to remove it and simply have virtues be the bench mark for behavior. I'm gonna think about this for awhile, so thanks for the mental exercise.

              I generally use virtues to avoid frenzy, and otherwise ignore the moral degeneration aspect of the game, except in Dark Ages, as I prefer the Roads in that game as opposed to the Paths and Humanity in the main game.

              Never was a fan of "personal horror" as a concept, I always preferred mystery, political intrigue, and yes, even modern action-adventure in my Vampire games.

              I always run Masquerade as less "Personal Horror" and more "Black Lagoon with Fangs" or "The Sopranos with Fangs".
              Last edited by Camilla; 06-20-2018, 09:34 PM.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Camilla View Post
                or "The Sopranos with Fangs".
                I daresay much of the greatness of the Sopranos was lost on you, if you're running Vampire like that without Humanity.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Blitzburger View Post
                  I daresay much of the greatness of the Sopranos was lost on you, if you're running Vampire like that without Humanity.
                  You can roleplay the emotions and character development without a mechanic behind it, after all Humans don't have a beast and Can't fall into Wassail

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                  • #84
                    It's going well, over a 160 members now.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Malkavian87 View Post
                      It's going well, over a 160 members now.
                      I suspect, after V5's debut, it'll be even larger than even you would have expected.


                      If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Malkavian87 View Post
                        It's going well, over a 160 members now.
                        I happily count myself among your ranks.
                        Last edited by AzraelFirestorm; 07-10-2018, 01:13 AM.


                        "Everybody is a book of blood; wherever we're opened, we're red." - Clive Barker, The Books of Blood

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Malkavian87 View Post
                          Facebook community for those that will stick to familiar versions of Vampire: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1823749454335156/
                          Just wondering, do you feel like being a member off the group and really looking forward towards V5, likely going to play and support it alot, are two mutually exclusive things?
                          If so, I would have to leave. As I am very much looking forward to V5. Though that doesn't mean that I started hating V20 gut or stuff like this.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Teylen View Post
                            Just wondering, do you feel like being a member off the group and really looking forward towards V5, likely going to play and support it alot, are two mutually exclusive things?
                            If so, I would have to leave. As I am very much looking forward to V5. Though that doesn't mean that I started hating V20 gut or stuff like this.
                            You'll notice that zero percent of the group's content is about hating V5. It's all about loving the V:tM that was, never mind to what extent.

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