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  • Originally posted by Inertial Frame View Post

    But you will be rousing left, right, and indifferent, as you say, because there are useful disciplines out there that at one time didn't cost vitae to use but now every time a discipline is used, its user is roused. Specifically, Auspex is going to become a problem discipline, because there is no reason whatsoever that rousing should be involved in any of its powers.
    Except we have no evidence that that's the case. In fact, the context for Disciplines, using Celerity as an example from the book preview, would directly indicate that not all powers have to Rouse. Celerity was extensively re-written from the pre-alpha and alpha version where everything cost a Rouse. I would expect some base Auspex things like Heightened Senses not to cost a Rouse. Sure, Spirit's Touch and Telepathy and such might cost a Rouse... but they're actively drawing more on the Blood to do the effect, which makes sense, as vitae has always been nebulously magical and the source of most vampiric powers, much like Celerity's greatest feats of speed such as Blink or Traversal draw on the Blood more heavily than their passive effects like balancing acts or preternatural reflexes.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by elmerg View Post

      Except we have no evidence that that's the case. In fact, the context for Disciplines, using Celerity as an example from the book preview, would directly indicate that not all powers have to Rouse. Celerity was extensively re-written from the pre-alpha and alpha version where everything cost a Rouse. I would expect some base Auspex things like Heightened Senses not to cost a Rouse. Sure, Spirit's Touch and Telepathy and such might cost a Rouse... but they're actively drawing more on the Blood to do the effect, which makes sense, as vitae has always been nebulously magical and the source of most vampiric powers, much like Celerity's greatest feats of speed such as Blink or Traversal draw on the Blood more heavily than their passive effects like balancing acts or preternatural reflexes.
      I apologize, in my reading of your post, I missed the part about not all discipline powers requiring a rouse. In that case, you may well be correct.

      It's too bad that can't fix all the other things that worry me about the rules as we know them so far.


      "At the risk of sounding like a murder hobo"

      Attributed to Nyrufa.

      Comment


      • Talking about Hunger Dices I can understand the fact that that WW wanted to reinforce the importance of humanity becuase to be fair the old humanity system was there but didnt do his job very well , let´s say it was Okay becuase with a decent masters you could play any king of game you liked at the end.

        But Hunger dices don´t solve anything , they not only eliminated the vitae system with worked , they limit the players forcing them to play an angs game and they do it in a bad way , by being repetitive.If I have read things well every time you activate a discipline you must make a Rouse the Blood check and every time that happens your are rolling this Hunger dices instead of RolePlaying.

        At the end the one who will frenzy with this system will be the Master

        And it´s a shame becuase I think that as an OPTIONAL System or with a good mechanics that doesn´t eliminate Vitae System behind the hunger dices and Compulsions could have been something very popular.For Example
        • The vitae System STAYS
        • Certain actions or events give you hunger dices one time x scene , Hunger Checks are only done if you acumulate hunger dices above 8 or the GM considers them necesary and the roll is made at diff 6.Brujah have 2 permanent hunger dices.
        • To reduce the hunger you must drink "human" blood (Animal Blood doenst saciate the beast).
        • 1 succes equals to Compulsion 3+=Frenzy
        • There are normal experience and bloody experience.Normal Experience can raise phsycial attributes and habilities , bloody raises others atributes and disciplines but it´s more dificult to attain.
        • Each time you frenzy you loss humanity but by becoming less human and more of a beast you win blood experience.The disciplines are instintual , the more you get in touch with the beast the more powerful you become.Power it´s a temptation.

        This rules should create a system where you don´t need to roll every turn the same thing , you can play whatever type of games you want becuase even if hunger it´s a thing you can fight it instead of being at the border of frenzy every turn and humanity is reinforced even in powergamers who only care about katanas in a trenchcoats becuase it´s the balance between the normal exp expended in rebuy humanity and the time you spent losing it the thing that makes advance faster.
        Last edited by Leandro16; 06-30-2018, 09:27 PM.


        Hunger pool

        Comment


        • Because V5 isn't building from the metaplot-agnostic V20. You should just really not even think about V20 in relation to V5 until we see something that references anything written specifically for V20 like Anarch Sorcery or those Justicars and such. They've stated that V5 is building from the end of Revised, where that did happen.
          My question is, what is the value added to the game by keeping it in and blowing the Ravnos up to a bloodline thereby other than lessening a play option some people liked. Answers are currently little more than "Because it happened in the metaplot" and "because the Ravnos kinda sucked anyway."

          And when they're sweepingly changing so many things anyway and you're otherwise saying how great them sweeping changes are, "because the decision to proclaim a big ol "feh" to anyone that liked that clan previously happened" is kind of a weak reason to defend it by. It was then taken out. The Vampire Revised Era of VtM wasn't holding a gun to the heads of the development team to put it back in, it's their own decision to do so.

          One or two Hunger is not the end of the world that people make it out to be.
          When you're rolling it on basically everything? When stuff like basic discipline use increases it moreso? It's not great.

          I did both playtests with some friends. Everyone hated hunger, and felt it was plenty intrusive. I'm aware this is your cue for "well in my group we loved it and no it wasn't!" And again, that's great... for your group.

          And I don't get this whole 'having hunger and having to deal with humans makes political play/running around with Beckett/etc. inviable'. I just... don't get it.
          I'm aware that V5 is the "I can't fathom how anyone could have a problem with V5 and it not being their fault because they're bad at understanding Vampire. Vampire 5th ed cannot fail, it can only be failed by the unbelieving" edition.

          Also, it was stated in this very thread that we don't know how often you have to interact, or in really what way, with Touchstones in the final version, but everyone here is acting like you have to go to dinner with them every fucking night to make them matter.
          It's as though they are promoting their game in a way that is an active discouragement to some people. If your response is "it might look bad, but you have to take on faith that it will totally turn out to be fine," that's again, failing as an advertisement.

          I mean, take your pick? You're currently railing against a group of people ("everyone here") not interpreting something the way you feel it should be interpreted. Either that entire group are bad at vampire, or, maybe, just maybe this hasn't been promoted so great as far as not reading it that way. Every advocacy boils down to "you should have faith it will work out for you." At this point, after all this stuff, why is that the case? The sequence is an initial dev interview that was received very poorly in some quarters, a playtest that was received poorly enough then afterwards with it for some "respond to backlash statements" and now a 20 page advanced look that doesn't seem to do much more than reinforce whatever problem was expressed in that sequence, from what some feel to be the excessiveness of the material, to the mechanical choices, to what the system looks like it is reinforcing for focus.

          We don't have context of how often you have to deal with them.
          We have at this point things like original dev interviews for what he'd like there to be focused on. We have an advance look that treats touchstones as this big innovative deal that is crucial to your vampire's existence. It doesn't seem like there's a lot to encourage "it won't be that intrusive." Because again, this game has mostly been promoted in a way that seems to encourage pretty strongly a particular take. That's the context it makes to view this in.

          And honestly, part of vampire fiction has always been protecting your resources; it's a great story hook for something like a rival threatening a Touchstone.
          I'm aware that "you're otherwise doing Vampire wrong and don't understand it if you don't want to do this" is a strong part of V5. Or, if it wasn't, responses like these have certainly helped that feeling anyway.

          The goal of these previews, or should be because otherwise why do them, is to encourage people to want to buy the full product. If the glimpses instead for some people have the opposite effect, I mean, I've worked in advertising, the promoter at that point tends to look into why the message wasn't received in an encouraging way. Rarely is "it's their fault for being stupid/not knowing how to read something" a successful exploration of why something didn't work.

          I assume these are smart enough people working on this game, and I assume they would know that how they are presenting a thing, is going to be perceived. They have, clearly, given the energy of your own and the defenses of others, an existing audience who like this approach, want more, and are totally going to buy it. And really, that's totally fine. It's not great if you were a fan of particular things, but in the sense of people liking what they like, it's fine. Less fine is "and anyone who has a problem instead is just having comprehension fail of Vampire/the English language."
          Last edited by MarkK; 06-30-2018, 09:24 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
            Talking about Hunger Dices I can understand the fact that that WW wanted to reinforce the importance of humanity becuase to be fair the old humanity system was there but didnt do his job very well , let´s say it was Okay becuase with a decent masters you could play any king of game you liked at the end.

            But Hunger dices don´t solve anything , they not only eliminated the vitae system with worked , they limit the players forcing them to play an angs game and they do it in a bad way , by being repetitive.If I have read things well every time you use a discipline or do something you must make a Rouse the Blood check and every time that happens your are rolling this Hunger dices instead of RolePlaying.

            At the end the one who will frenzy with this system will be the Master

            And it´s a shame becuase I think that as an OPTIONAL System or with a good mechanics that doesn´t eliminate Vitae System behind the hunger dices and Compulsions could have been something very popular.For Example
            • The vitae System STAYS
            • Certain actions or events give you hunger dices one time x scene , Hunger Checks are only done if you acumulate hunger dices above 8 or the GM considers them necesary and the roll is made at diff 6.Brujah have 2 permanent hunger dices.
            • To reduce the hunger you must drink "human" blood (Animal Blood doenst saciate the beast).
            • 1 succes equals to Compulsion 3+=Frenzy
            • There are normal experience and bloody experience.Normal Experience can raise phsycial attributes and habilities , bloody raises others atributes and disciplines but it´s more dificult to attain.
            • Each time you frenzy you loss humanity but by becoming less human and more of a beast you win blood experience.The disciplines are instintual , the more you get in touch with the beast the more powerful you become.Power it´s a temptation.
            This rules should create a system where you don´t need to roll every turn the same thing , you can play whatever type of games you want becuase even if hunger it´s a thing you can fight it instead of being at the border of frenzy every turn and humanity is reinforced even in powergamers who only care about katanas in a trenchcoats becuase it´s the balance between the normal exp expended in rebuy humanity and the time you spent losing it the thing that makes advance faster.

            Go reread the Celerity writeup and Hunger from the alpha. You roll to Rouse when you use certain Disciplines, yes, to see if you Rouse your Hunger by drawing on the Blood too much. And if the same rules as the alpha Hunger Roll are the Rouse rules, it's one freaking die to roll before you roll your Discipline effect if there is a roll for it. You roll a Hunger Roll. If you roll a 1-3 you increase Hunger by 1; if you roll 4-10 you do not increase Hunger.

            From the alpha:
            Originally posted by The V5 Alpha Storyteller's Packet
            The Hunger Roll
            Other actions cause you to make a Hunger roll: roll one die. If your Hunger roll comes up 1-3, gain 1 Hunger. If it comes up 4-0, you have resisted your cravings for now.
            Make a Hunger roll immediately after you do any of the following things:
            * Temporarily increase an Attribute by one dot for the remainder of the scene (roll once for each additional dot) This can increase an attribute up to 5.
            * Activate or use a Discipline
            * Heal Superfcial damage (roll once per point healed)
            * Gain the Blush of Life to appear human for one scene (simulate breathing, skin warmth, eye blinking, etc.)

            Any number of Hunger rolls can be made in a single turn, but the dice must be rolled consecutively. As soon as Hunger reaches 5 no more voluntary Hunger rolls can be made. (And a Hunger Frenzy check is needed, see Frenzy below.)
            Whenever you roll anything else, you replace one die with a Hunger die (generally a different color die, the text suggests black for regular and red for Hunger) for each Hunger you have. If you roll a 10 on the hunger you have a messy critical (your Beast takes over and you do something overtly monstrous in your success), if you roll a 1 you lose your turn (I admit this is bad in combat, but a momentary distraction in a tense meeting where you distractedly stare out the window at the mail boy walking past the office is NOT game breaking), and if you roll two 1s on Hunger dice (so you have to have Hunger 2 to even GET this), you incur a Compulsion, which you can spend Composure to resist. And the alpha has YOU, the PLAYER, choose the Compulsion, and the suggested reward for actually roleplaying your Compulsion is a point of Composure.

            It's about as intrusive, barring the combat example, as a low-vitae Hunger frenzy was, IMO.
            Last edited by elmerg; 06-30-2018, 09:41 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Ravnos View Post
              Personal taste I suppose. I'm honestly a bit tired that everything must be nuanced in some way. I'm starting to like a more visceral feel, this in-the-face approach. I think it is good for a corebook. It gives new players a stereotypical but strong impression, not too different from the old book.
              In clanbooks and such they'll have the chance to add all the optional nuance that fans can like.
              Well, my problem is not the in-your-faceness, as I stated earlier, I like that.

              For just to be sure, I re-read the 2e, Revised and V20 corebook writeups and again the preview one, to see if my thoughts about the clan, or the greater depth provided by the clanbook colored my view of them more than I remembered and the base descriptions were more in-line with the V5 one than I felt. I'd copy all of them here, but I don't know how to do the spoiler-kinda thing, where it'll show only if you're opening it. I don't find the option among the editing tools. If anyone yould help me out, I will.

              But it seems to be I was right in my assesment: while the common themes are the same (rebelling against the status quo, favoring minorities, or otherwise, intellectual environments, strong urge to pick up causes, a penchant for a vampire utopia, etc.), in earleir editions, while it always had a vaguely leftist-feeling (hence anarchy, if nothing else, and the desire for redistributing power and elevating opressed groups - mostly with themsleves as the foremost... though, indeed they did mention skinheads and that they could pick any ideology as their pet-peeve), the tone and the breadth of it differs. The earlier editions' writeups are more encompassing, broad and general. They mention activist groups and such, but the underlying theme of the whole is that they are rebels, malcontents and such and very varied in that. The V5 writeup, I feel, is much more one-directional, much more focused on one specific kind of ideology and political sida and activism. I don't like that, it's much more constraining, puts the clan in a much smaller box (and I didn't even count my personal problems about the particular ideology and political group).

              So, in short, my problem isn't that there are proglib activist and gender studies-student Brujahs, not even that many of them, especially newer neonates in the West are like that and from that idological group. As I said, it makes sense, given the culture war and all that going on around us. But I don't like focusing this much on that aspect. Partly, because what I've said above, that it's more constrained and partly, because taking into consideration the other snippets from here and there in the preview, it comes off as a quite clear political statement. Yes, WoD was always political and always leftist and again, I liked that (just to be clear about where I'm coming from, every test I ever checked, including very recently, firmly put me into the socio-liberal bracket, arond the middle, but more close to liberalism - so I'm not saying all this, because I want the game to preach to the conservative side instead...), but honestly, it tended to be a lot more nuanced and subtle than that. I want politics in the game, yes, but not preaching.

              I could condense it to: the themes are the same, but the narrative and meta-narrative is much more constrained and favoritism-laden, IMO.

              In essence, It's like making the Toreador writeup mostly about modern street-art, instead of general sensualness and aesthetical junkiness. To be fair, precisely because of that, I think the Toreador is a better writeup, among the two, because it gives a more general view on the clan, relatable to a bigger swath of people, despite all the problems it has.

              I hope I managed to present my dissatisfaction's root better now.
              Last edited by PMárk; 06-30-2018, 09:41 PM.


              If nothing worked, then let's think!

              Comment


              • if you roll a 1 you lose your turn (I admit this is bad in combat, but a momentary distraction in a tense meeting where you distractedly stare out the window at the mail boy walking past the office is NOT game breaking),
                In combat, losing the ability to do anything for an entire turn is pretty lethal on you. Allcaps to say it isn't don't make it less game breaking.

                And again, you are rolling hunger dice, basically all the time. So "and then the hunger dice killed me", it's a thing hanging over your head.

                And the alpha has YOU, the PLAYER, choose the Compulsion, and the suggested reward for actually roleplaying your Compulsion is a point of Composure.
                Compulsions that people had some serious problems with, could whammy you pretty hard, and again, hunger dice are with you on what is nearly every single roll you are making, as far as the potential for some consequence or other from them.

                That's not "no worse than being hungry on low blood". That's "you are risking a hunger dice effect on almost every single roll you make for basically everything you make a roll for". Even the fact that it is a basically constant risk feels incredibly intrusive. You ask "why do people think this stuff is going to be a constant focus that won't let them play the game some other way"? Well, when one of the mechanics is "risk this almost always when you are rolling dice, even if you're all of searching bookshelf", it is perhaps hard to feel like it isn't.

                What is reading like your increasing fury at people not liking the things in V5 you like, or finding them as unproblematic as you find them, it's not great man. I assure you, the game will be a huge success. Lots of people are really hyped for it.

                Others are not.
                Last edited by MarkK; 06-30-2018, 10:35 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by elmerg View Post

                  It's about as intrusive, barring the combat example, as a low-vitae Hunger frenzy was, IMO.
                  Hunger Dices are Ten Thousand times more intrusive , low vitae Hunger frenzy it´s rolled 1 time maybe another one when you are refilling to not kill the victim or juice bag.

                  Now you make a Rouse the Blood Check each time you use an ACTIVE discipline level (or non pasive buff) , with will mean with this system you will have to make extra rolls every turn.

                  As I said at the end the Master will be the one to frenzy
                  Last edited by Leandro16; 06-30-2018, 09:51 PM.


                  Hunger pool

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                    Hunger Dices are Ten Thousand times more intrusive , low vitae Hunger frenzy it´s rolled 1 time maybe another one when you are refilling to not kill the victim or juice bag.

                    Now you make a Rouse the Blood Check each time you use an ACTIVE discipline level (or non pasive buff) , with will mean with this system you will have to make extra rolls every turn.

                    As I said at the end the Master will be the one to frenzy

                    Okay, I'll clarify: I, and the people I have went over the playtest with, don't find a single die roll before you roll for a Discipline activation. It's as intrusive as erasing a blood point dot off your character sheet. As far as Hunger dice (nitpick: die is the singular, dice is the plural) into your normal pool.... you're already rolling dice, it's fairly trivial to replace some with another color or slide a couple to the side and roll them separately. I mean, VtM earlier editions roll 4 dice for combat and people seem to be ABSOLUTELY COOL with that level of extra dice rolling.

                    Also, regarding V20 and prior Hunger Frenzy, if they're rolling one time to completely ignore it, they're likely not following the rules as written:

                    Originally posted by V20 pg 298
                    The character must score five successes to completely overcome the desires for violence, but even one success halts the frenzy temporarily. For each success below fve, the character can
                    resist the urge to frenzy for one turn. After this duration expires, the character may try again to gain extra successes and thus continue to resist the frenzy. Once fve successes are acquired, over a longer or shorter period, the vampire resists the Beast’s urges.
                    So sure, they can potentially get 5 successes on that first roll, or in a span of less than 30 seconds get completely away from the source of their anger/hunger., but let's say they roll 1 success... and they should have to roll again after 1 turn. Most of the Compulsions last one turn at low levels, and then we really have to look at dice averages and test pools, and the effect of a flat difficulty versus both a success threshold plus variable difficulty, which is also pretty dice-heavy if the difficulty is high.

                    There's dice rolling in all of the Storyteller system if you're actively following RAW. I don't see how this one die rolled when you activate a Discipline is any different from any other 'ahve to roll dice here'.
                    Last edited by elmerg; 06-30-2018, 10:21 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Rolling to eventually reach 5 successes and then resolved is well different from "you are rolling hunger dice on a whooole lot of rolls you make." That alone would make the former less intrusive than the latter.

                      More to the point, something has to actually happen to provoke said frenzy. The hunger dice are just.. there. You're just rolling them.

                      You can't get away from the hunger dice in less than 30 seconds. They're just there with you, being rolled, threatening whatever all consequence, almost always.

                      By simple functional comparison, the thing that is with you almost always is more intrusive than the thing that is not.
                      Last edited by MarkK; 06-30-2018, 10:36 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                        A few things. It lets us know that things like "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to" are not ok. It also lets us know that Gehenna and the elder horrors are real, and not what anyone might expect, even their loyal childer.
                        Honestly that's one of my issues with it.

                        One of the things about Vampire was that the Sabbat believes the antediluvians are going to awaken and kill all of the vampires, that Gehenna isn't just kind of story but real. And the Camarilla says the antediluvian don't exist, or at least if they do they're not horrible blood gods out to murder everyone - and to be fair some of the elders in the Camarilla probably remember speaking with and interacting with antediluvians some of which, such as Cappadocius and Lasombra, were active well after the fall of Rome, and those guys weren't horrible blood gods.

                        When you introduce the Week of Nightmares you also introduce the fact the Camarilla is, at best, an ignorant stooge of the Antediluvians, at worst, is working to cover up the ancients so that they'll be able to destroy all of the vampires, and at the same time, that the Sabbat is 100% correct, both about the antediluvians as well as their beliefs and propaganda about the Camarilla. I found VtM a bit more interesting before we had confirmation on all of that, so I wasn't a huge fan of the Week of Nightmares the first time around, but at least that was gearing up for the end of the gameline. Reintroducing this concept at the beginning of the new game line presents a huge tonal issue is that is going to absolutely color the entire game from now on.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

                          Honestly that's one of my issues with it.

                          One of the things about Vampire was that the Sabbat believes the antediluvians are going to awaken and kill all of the vampires, that Gehenna isn't just kind of story but real. And the Camarilla says the antediluvian don't exist, or at least if they do they're not horrible blood gods out to murder everyone - and to be fair some of the elders in the Camarilla probably remember speaking with and interacting with antediluvians some of which, such as Cappadocius and Lasombra, were active well after the fall of Rome, and those guys weren't horrible blood gods.

                          When you introduce the Week of Nightmares you also introduce the fact the Camarilla is, at best, an ignorant stooge of the Antediluvians, at worst, is working to cover up the ancients so that they'll be able to destroy all of the vampires, and at the same time, that the Sabbat is 100% correct, both about the antediluvians as well as their beliefs and propaganda about the Camarilla. I found VtM a bit more interesting before we had confirmation on all of that, so I wasn't a huge fan of the Week of Nightmares the first time around, but at least that was gearing up for the end of the gameline. Reintroducing this concept at the beginning of the new game line presents a huge tonal issue is that is going to absolutely color the entire game from now on.

                          Eh, the Camarilla has really always been painted as saying 'Oh, the myth of them waking up and devouring all vampires is just a myth' in equal measure to 'the Antediluvians are not real'. It's their narrative and something that they control within the sect, but also something that they believe from on high; they've heard the stories of deaths of various antediluvians, such as the Lasombra's wild tale of killing theirs, and it fits the first part of their chosen narrative. It's also I feel a part of why there's a plot reason for many Elders to be off-screen, leaving the uneducated neonates and barely in-the-know ancillae as the major players. Gehenna, at least how it's presented in BJD (which, again, is the plot lead into V5) points to the 1e-style 'cyclical Gehenna' that happens when some unclear criteria are met. But that's the tone they want to go with, and it provides interesting plot fodder at least, having something truly Gehenna baked into things going in.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by elmerg View Post
                            I mean, VtM earlier editions roll 4 dice for combat and people seem to be ABSOLUTELY COOL with that level of extra dice rolling.
                            No one was or is cool with that i said it before and i said now Vampire it´s a great game with great characters and an interesting history but with a lot of mechanical errors (VTR 2ed it´s the only one with a mechanic system that works but i prefer masquerade clans and metaplot) and becuase of that since ancient times in the games I or my friends play basic combat it´s reduced to a oposed roll of (Strengh + (Dex + Skil/2)) vs (Resistance + (Dex + Skill/2)) and non boss enemys use the rule Take a half +1.


                            Originally posted by elmerg View Post
                            Once fve successes are acquired, over a longer or shorter period, the vampire resists the Beast’s urges.
                            In previous editions if you acumulate 5 succeses you only roll to resist frenzy if something provoques it meanwhile with Hunger Dices acording to the playtest you are rolling each time you:
                            • Temporarily increase an Attribute by one dot for the remainder of the scene (roll once for each additional dot) This can increase an attribute up to 5.
                            • Activate or use a Discipline
                            • Heal Superfcial damage (roll once per point healed)
                            • Gain the Blush of Life to appear human for one scene (simulate breathing, skin warmth, eye blinking, etc.)

                            And after that you roll again becuase hunger dices are like a damocles sword over your head , the paradox from mage but with a bad mechanic behind that makes you roll for it every turn

                            Hunger dices are beyond intrusive PLUS ULTRA

                            I can understand you like the hunger dices mechanic but I don´t and this conversation it´s becoming a temporis bucle


                            Hunger pool

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

                              Honestly that's one of my issues with it.

                              One of the things about Vampire was that the Sabbat believes the antediluvians are going to awaken and kill all of the vampires, that Gehenna isn't just kind of story but real. And the Camarilla says the antediluvian don't exist, or at least if they do they're not horrible blood gods out to murder everyone - and to be fair some of the elders in the Camarilla probably remember speaking with and interacting with antediluvians some of which, such as Cappadocius and Lasombra, were active well after the fall of Rome, and those guys weren't horrible blood gods.

                              When you introduce the Week of Nightmares you also introduce the fact the Camarilla is, at best, an ignorant stooge of the Antediluvians, at worst, is working to cover up the ancients so that they'll be able to destroy all of the vampires, and at the same time, that the Sabbat is 100% correct, both about the antediluvians as well as their beliefs and propaganda about the Camarilla. I found VtM a bit more interesting before we had confirmation on all of that, so I wasn't a huge fan of the Week of Nightmares the first time around, but at least that was gearing up for the end of the gameline. Reintroducing this concept at the beginning of the new game line presents a huge tonal issue is that is going to absolutely color the entire game from now on.
                              This is one of the reasons I liked Becket's Jyhad Diary. I still don't much like the idea of a "Cyclical Gehenna" as such - I genuinely do think there should be the threat of a real, honest-to-goodness apocalypse - but the underlying logic behind it is something I DO like. That, for the foreseeable future, the real forces to worry about are old, entrenched elders and Methuselahs rising from the past and upsetting the apple cart. That you don't need to pull the trigger on Antedeluvians outright, but can get threat enough from just really old, really powerful, and really vengeful/angry/ambitious vampires.

                              The Southern Lords, the Drowned Legacies, Hazimel, Baba Yaga, Mithras, Marcus Vitel, Helena & Menele, even Count Fucking Dracula. They make the Jyhad very interesting. Far more interesting, in fact, that worrying about the Antedeluvians rising and doing...something that destroys the world. If any of the aforementioned threats return, the world will continue on (probably), but changed.

                              The death of [Ravnos] and the near total destruction of Clan Ravnos are poor choices to me, not just because they eliminate mystery and put too much focus on Gehenna, but because it subtracts story possibilities. And for no really good reason. This makes their inclusion in V5 canon all the more confusing to me. Becket's Jyhad Diary went to all the trouble of retconing out the near-complete destruction of Clan Ravnos, AND set up potential stories arising from its continued existence...and V5 just throws that in the garbage. And after it sounded, vaguely, like BJD was leading into V5 somehow. Maybe I've been misinformed or made wild assumptions. Or maybe it's not such a wild assumption that a book that seems intent on hinting at a new status quo would be followed up on.


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                              • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                                Honestly that's one of my issues with it.

                                One of the things about Vampire was that the Sabbat believes the antediluvians are going to awaken and kill all of the vampires, that Gehenna isn't just kind of story but real. And the Camarilla says the antediluvian don't exist, or at least if they do they're not horrible blood gods out to murder everyone - and to be fair some of the elders in the Camarilla probably remember speaking with and interacting with antediluvians some of which, such as Cappadocius and Lasombra, were active well after the fall of Rome, and those guys weren't horrible blood gods.

                                When you introduce the Week of Nightmares you also introduce the fact the Camarilla is, at best, an ignorant stooge of the Antediluvians, at worst, is working to cover up the ancients so that they'll be able to destroy all of the vampires, and at the same time, that the Sabbat is 100% correct, both about the antediluvians as well as their beliefs and propaganda about the Camarilla. I found VtM a bit more interesting before we had confirmation on all of that, so I wasn't a huge fan of the Week of Nightmares the first time around, but at least that was gearing up for the end of the gameline. Reintroducing this concept at the beginning of the new game line presents a huge tonal issue is that is going to absolutely color the entire game from now on.
                                The Sabbat is not and does not have to be correct, and the fact that neither the Tzimisce or Lasombra nearly became extinct when their Antideluvian died should be a huge problem for the Sabbat. Im not really sure from what angle you have an issue from the is coming from? That the Noddist Lore which had been very much the "canon truth" of the setting since 1st Ed was infact the canon truth, and intended as such from the start? Not tryimg to be an ass. I get that some folks do not like the Nod lore aspects for whatever reason, or like to have more of a Requiemesque mystery to it. It is personal preference. But Maquerade has always, out of game been under the assumption that Caine/Antediluvians/Lilith/Gehenna is true.

                                Or that Revised era tried to humanize the various "bad guy" groups (Sabbat, Technocracy, Black Spiral Dancers), across the board to be more understandable and relatable groups. Showing that the Sabbat might be a little right, doesn't mean that they are 100% correct about everything. It is entirerly possible that some Antediluvians want to feed off of Cainites and others do not, or not in the malicious way we think.

                                I personally think it was a bold move, and like that it shows both that some of the myths are true, but also just how bad things could become.

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